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Old
03-26-2013, 11:26 AM
  #326
ahmon
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
4 games ago Schneids was rocking a .910 SV%. He's on a nice hot streak. Just adding this detail for context.
take the SVP of the last 2 season, that would be a bigger sample size, just adding for context...

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03-26-2013, 11:27 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
take the SVP of the last 2 season, that would be a bigger sample size, just adding for context...
So you choose to ignore Schneider's sheltered starts? Most of his starts (not all, before you jump on that word) were against non-playoff teams. Typical for a backup.

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03-26-2013, 11:28 AM
  #328
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I hate arguments like this, that are based on worst case scenario. Simply put, who are we spending the cap space on this season? What dman are we going to get as good as Ballard to play in the 6th spot?

What if luongo plays out his full contract? Then there is no later cap hit.
1. I don't care if Luongo plays out his full contract. As I said, it's not my point. It's only a useful feature of the discussion right now because it dramatically reduces whatever trade value Luongo had before the lockout. I can't fault Gillis for not forseeing such a petty rule being foisted on the PA by ownership, but it's still relevant.

2. It's not a worst case scenario. It's the current scenario. The Canucks are paying 9.5 million dollars to Roberto Luongo and Keith Ballard. If you want to be slightly more fair, with backup making 1.5, the Canucks would have an additional 8 million dollars in cap space is they moved Ballard.

3. There are plenty of defensemen that can provide a team 14-15 decent minutes a night against soft competition while providing little or no special teams support or offense. Heck, Alain Vigneault clearly think Andrew Alberts is one of them. Even Alberts is overpaid for what he brings: you won't convince me Ballard is worth more than half his salary with the way he's utilized on the Canucks. It's not like Gillis hasn't had two years to figure that out.

4. Who would they spend the money on? With 8 million dollars, they could have signed a cheap #6, signed a free agent for 4 million, and left some space to be cap compliant next summer. There would have been plenty of options.

All I'm saying here is I like Gillis, but unless he has something up his sleeve in the next week, he threw away a lot of surplus contract value this season.

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03-26-2013, 11:28 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Putting everything else aside, i think it's safe to say that 1 goalie has to go...right? If you say yes, than keeping Schnieder over Luongo is already a big step in improving your team. Even IF all you get is futures for Luongo, take that 5.3 and cap and sign a player in an area of need.
How is moving a good player for nothing an improvement to the team?

The next backup won't be as good as Schneider or Luongo.

They'll potentially have nothing to show for this asset.

$5.3 does Sweet FA at the deadline, and I can't see any FA's on the horizon.

Schneider hasn't shown me he can start 60 games + playoffs yet, it's pretty risky.

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03-26-2013, 11:28 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Can't really compare a backup (Schneider last year) getting sheltered starts for the most part to a starter.

We do have a lot of other prospects and picks to move? So you're saying it makes sense to dump your best goalie for scraps while keeping Schneider who hasn't proven anything (when Schneider could get a significantly better return) and also subsequently move what little prospects and draft picks this team has? So you would have this team completely stripped of all prospect talent in an attempt to make a run for one year, rather than addressing our needs, keeping our young talent, and having a shot at several cups. Yikes!
yah sheltered starts against the likes of SJ getting plastered with 40+ shots...

who started the Boston game.. ? agruably the most hostile game for the canucks, and a big game...

best goalie? how is luongo our best goalie right now?

You really believe going into a playoff series, luongo gives us a better chance to win than schneider?

if so... i'm done here....

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:31 AM
  #331
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Guys, Schneider won't be moved, the dye has been cast. The only question is when.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 03-26-2013 at 11:49 AM.
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Old
03-26-2013, 11:31 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
take the SVP of the last 2 season, that would be a bigger sample size, just adding for context...
I guess so, but the last 2.5 seasons Schneider has played in 76 games, Luongo has 130.

Still not sure, Cory's #'s are sustainable over a heavier workload. It's a risk I'd be willing to take if the value coming back for Luongo is good. If it's not, I move Schneider and make the team better, with a goalie I know can handle 55+ starts year in year out.

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03-26-2013, 11:32 AM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
yah sheltered starts again the likes of SJ getting plastered with 40+ shots...

who started the Boston game.. ? agruably the most hostile game for the canucks, and a big game...

best goalie? how is luongo our best goalie right now?

You really believe going into a playoff series, luongo gives us a better chance to win than schneider?

if so... i'm done here....
Yes sheltered starts. Last season 21 of Schneider's 28 starts came against non-playoff teams. How is that anything but sheltered?

Yes, I believe going through a long playoffs that Luongo gives us a better chance to win than Schneider. Give me the veteran who's proven he can get there over the guy who hasn't won a single playoff series.

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03-26-2013, 11:32 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
This isn't NHL13, you can't just sign players at will. I know Leaf fans everywhere expected Getzlaf and Perry were going to Toronto (actually every year you read "Leafs will go out and sign X") and it never happens. We won't make the same mistake and assume we are going to go out and sign whatever player we want.

If trading one goalie addresses our offensive problems, while trading the other doesn't, it's a no brainer who should be moved. I think people are letting their personal bias getting in the way of doing what's best for the team.
If you knew me, you'd know i'm a realist. That being said, are there any UFA's you feel would help the Canucks? I'm not advocating anything from the leafs, just in general. Unless the offer is over the top, dealing Schnieder is a mistake.

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03-26-2013, 11:34 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
yah sheltered starts against the likes of SJ getting plastered with 40+ shots...

who started the Boston game.. ? agruably the most hostile game for the canucks, and a big game...

best goalie? how is luongo our best goalie right now?

You really believe going into a playoff series, luongo gives us a better chance to win than schneider?

if so... i'm done here....
Schneider couldn't score for us, just like Luongo couldn't.

The best chance to win is outscoring the opposition, both goalies can win, if we can score.

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03-26-2013, 11:34 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Gillis made the right move holding on to Luongo. If all we were being offered was crap from other teams then it makes no sense to trade a top 5 goalie for crap. In fact I would likely end up moving Schneider rather than Luongo assuming a huge difference in the quality of offers.
It seems pretty clear to me that Gillis has poorly managed this situation.

The organization made a decision that Schneider would be their #1 goaltender and that Luongo would be traded but Gillis' inactivity has made it very difficult to achieve this.

Gillis will soon find himself in a situation where he needs to trade a goaltender to be cap compliant. That is a problem. The Canucks now have less control over their goaltending situation. The cap situation will not benefit Gillis in a Luongo trade this summer. They may be forced to trade Schneider when they don't want to.

I don't understand why Gillis is holding out.. What does Gillis really expect to get for a 34 year old #1 goaltender with 9 years left on his contract or even Schneider for that matter? Goaltenders typically do not return very much in trade.

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03-26-2013, 11:35 AM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
If you knew me, you'd know i'm a realist. That being said, are there any UFA's you feel would help the Canucks? I'm not advocating anything from the leafs, just in general. Unless the offer is over the top, dealing Schnieder is a mistake.
Actually not really. Jarome Iginla is probably the only one who I think addresses our biggest need that's a UFA this year, meaning to get the help we need we should acquire that help through a goalie trade.

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03-26-2013, 11:35 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
It seems pretty clear to me that Gillis has poorly managed this situation.

The organization made a decision that Schneider would be their #1 goaltender and that Luongo would be traded but Gillis' inactivity has made it very difficult to achieve this.

Gillis will soon find himself in a situation where he needs to trade a goaltender to be cap compliant. That is a problem. The Canucks now have less control over their goaltending situation. The cap situation will not benefit Gillis in a Luongo trade this summer. They may be forced to trade Schneider when they don't want to.

I don't understand why Gillis is holding out.. What does Gillis really expect to get for a 34 year old #1 goaltender with 9 years left on his contract or even Schneider for that matter? Goaltenders typically do not return very much in trade.
The Canucks can be cap compliant next season while keeping both goalies. You don't dump a top 5 goalie like Luongo for garbage, that's the worst thing this organization could do.

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03-26-2013, 11:37 AM
  #339
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I don't know why I allow myself to get dragged into these debates.

I'm out....for now.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:40 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
How is moving a good player for nothing an improvement to the team?

The next backup won't be as good as Schneider or Luongo.

They'll potentially have nothing to show for this asset.

$5.3 does Sweet FA at the deadline, and I can't see any FA's on the horizon.

Schneider hasn't shown me he can start 60 games + playoffs yet, it's pretty risky.
As weird as it sounds, if keeping Luongo costs you Schnieder, thats a negative.

Let me ask you an honest question, if you only had Luongo and someone offered you Schnieder straight up...would you do it?

Again, i'm not bashing Luongo....i'm not pushing fdor a cheap deal....i just think if you trade Cory over Luongo it will bite you in the ass.

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03-26-2013, 11:41 AM
  #341
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All this is moot really. Here's why:

Why would Lui want to stay in Vancouver?

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03-26-2013, 11:47 AM
  #342
arsmaster
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
As weird as it sounds, if keeping Luongo costs you Schnieder, thats a negative.

Let me ask you an honest question, if you only had Luongo and someone offered you Schnieder straight up...would you do it?

Again, i'm not bashing Luongo....i'm not pushing fdor a cheap deal....i just think if you trade Cory over Luongo it will bite you in the ass.
Since you specifically asked me a question, I'll reply but I'm done after this post, because I've had this debate 100+ times now.

No I wouldn't. Why would I? It's a lateral move. It's a straight swap at a position I feel we're already strong in (easily top 1/3 of the league with Luongo).

Having both, you need to make a move to augment the look of the roster. It's like asking if I'd want Jacob Markstrom or Jonathan Bernier for either goalie....why would I want that.

I wan't to improve my prospect cupboard, or my roster make-up...I don't want to swap a goalie for a goalie.

If the offer for Schneids is considerably better than the one for Lu, you move Schnieds. It's that simple for me.

I know people will talk age, contract, he wants out, yada yada....Luongo has $64m reasons to play in Vancouver for the next 10 years. He signed on the line too. I don't worry about the affect this has on him or his teammates....I've seen his twitter.

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03-26-2013, 11:47 AM
  #343
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All this is moot really. Here's why:

Why would Lui want to stay in Vancouver?
Because he could be the number 1 here and apparently loves the city?

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03-26-2013, 11:52 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Since you specifically asked me a question, I'll reply but I'm done after this post, because I've had this debate 100+ times now.

No I wouldn't. Why would I? It's a lateral move. It's a straight swap at a position I feel we're already strong in (easily top 1/3 of the league with Luongo).

Having both, you need to make a move to augment the look of the roster. It's like asking if I'd want Jacob Markstrom or Jonathan Bernier for either goalie....why would I want that.

I wan't to improve my prospect cupboard, or my roster make-up...I don't want to swap a goalie for a goalie.

If the offer for Schneids is considerably better than the one for Lu, you move Schnieds. It's that simple for me.

I know people will talk age, contract, he wants out, yada yada....Luongo has $64m reasons to play in Vancouver for the next 10 years. He signed on the line too. I don't worry about the affect this has on him or his teammates....I've seen his twitter.
Hey ars...i apologise if you feel i was arguing, i really wasn't. I respect all that you said and was only talkin' shop.

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03-26-2013, 11:59 AM
  #345
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Removing his usual October last year, he had a ~.930. I don't see evidence of any decline in play yet.
While it is understood that Luongo normally starts seasons poorly and picks things up, it is also true for a number of NHL players who also have peaks and valleys in their statistics.

We simply can't hold certain players accountable in one fashion and then give other guys breaks. Seriously, then what are we really comparing.

I could easily say the same about Reimer who has .930+ SV when he isn't coming of an injury, but that would also be a dubious claim.

Simply put, Luongo's stats over the last 1.5 seasons has been pretty effing poor.

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03-26-2013, 11:59 AM
  #346
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Guys, Schneider won't be moved, the dye has been cast. The only question is when.
Nothing is certain.

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Old
03-26-2013, 12:01 PM
  #347
arsmaster
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Hey ars...i apologise if you feel i was arguing, i really wasn't. I respect all that you said and was only talkin' shop.
I didn't feel you were.

No worries, sorry if that was overly confrontational.

More arguing against our own fanbase continuing to scape goat Luongo for the failures and fragility in front of him in past post seasons.

Keep talkin' shop, I'm sure you'll find someone else to chat with. I just have to move on for now, gets me too hot under the collar.

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03-26-2013, 12:01 PM
  #348
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Because he could be the number 1 here and apparently loves the city?
Well how about the reasons he would want to leave.
Treated like garbage by the coach
Booed repeatedly by the fans
Local Media shat on his Character
Shown the door by all of the above including management
Wife and Child lives on opposite side on the Continent.

Can't see him wanting to stay because he "loves the city". Besides he'll be a number one where ever he goes. Lu doesn't owe this team anything he wants out and I don't blame him.

Gillis has shown that he won't keep a player that doesn't want to be here. Lu is going and wishful thinking about him finishing his career here will just make it even more depressing when he leaves.

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03-26-2013, 12:03 PM
  #349
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Yes, I believe going through a long playoffs that Luongo gives us a better chance to win than Schneider. Give me the veteran who's proven he can get there over the guy who hasn't won a single playoff series.
I'm with you, man. Call me conservative, but if we can get a better trade haul from Schneider, on top of the fact that Luongo is the goalie with the sparkling 12 year resume, that's the guy I want to go forward with.

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03-26-2013, 12:07 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
It seems pretty clear to me that Gillis has poorly managed this situation.

The organization made a decision that Schneider would be their #1 goaltender and that Luongo would be traded but Gillis' inactivity has made it very difficult to achieve this.

Gillis will soon find himself in a situation where he needs to trade a goaltender to be cap compliant. That is a problem. The Canucks now have less control over their goaltending situation. The cap situation will not benefit Gillis in a Luongo trade this summer. They may be forced to trade Schneider when they don't want to.

I don't understand why Gillis is holding out.. What does Gillis really expect to get for a 34 year old #1 goaltender with 9 years left on his contract or even Schneider for that matter? Goaltenders typically do not return very much in trade.
Bingo!

Gillis has done a pretty piss poor job handling the situation so far.

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