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The Luongo Thread - Razor Ramon Edition (MOD WARNING POST #922)

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03-30-2013, 02:41 AM
  #926
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Not when he was on the Leafs...
He was every bit as good as Luongo in his days with the Leafs.

His winning percentage was nuts, Belfour would have had the most wins in 2003 and 2004 had the Leafs played him as much as the goalies ahead of him(finished 3rd both years in win). In 2003 he was 4 wins off the Lead with 9 less games played. In 2004 he was 4 games off the Lead with 16 less games played. Luongo has had some similar 'luck' in that department as well though.

Still doesn't ignore that Belfour was Elite, and in his career better than Luongo. Leafs also had Cujo, another elite goaltender.

** After reading the Mods post on the pervious page, I'm going to drop this topic because it might derail the thread.**

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03-30-2013, 02:47 AM
  #927
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Many Leafs fans were claiming they would only be willing to take Luongo if Komisarek, Connolly, or Lombardi were going back. So much for that crap. They were also claiming they would use their upcoming capspace on Getzlaf or Perry. Now it is only a mid round pick, or their 15th best prospect.

I can guarantee there is at least 1 roster player involved from the Leafs' side, otherwise the Canucks are just wasting time. A pick or prospect is far worse than having a "backup" like Luongo in case Schneider gets injured. Makes no sense at all when we could get that pick or prospect after the season is over. Do their fans even think about what they say here?

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03-30-2013, 02:52 AM
  #928
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Originally Posted by ProspectProphet View Post
Many Leafs fans were claiming they would only be willing to take Luongo if Komisarek, Connolly, or Lombardi were going back. So much for that crap. They were also claiming they would use their upcoming capspace on Getzlaf or Perry. Now it is only a mid round pick, or their 15th best prospect.

I can guarantee there is at least 1 roster player involved from the Leafs' side, otherwise the Canucks are just wasting time. A pick or prospect is far worse than having a "backup" like Luongo in case Schneider gets injured. Makes no sense at all when we could get that pick or prospect after the season is over. Do their fans even think about what they say here?
Those guys were just trolling.

The only roster players I wanted to give up in the Off-season were Bozak, Franson and MacArthur. However, now I don't want to move Bozak or Franson and the Canucks don't need MacArthur...

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03-30-2013, 02:57 AM
  #929
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Don't forget, the Leafs had Belfour, and he's better than any goalie to ever wear a Vancouver jersey. So don't for a second think Leaf Fans don't know what an Elite Goaltender is.
You forget a lot of things after 10 years...

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03-30-2013, 06:38 AM
  #930
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Originally Posted by goodluckchuck View Post
you are thinking just like Gillis. If i wait, teams will be pressured to make moves. That's why he's in the situation he's in.

You're also forgetting that Luongo has a say where he goes. Gillis COULD have had a deal by now, and Luongo could have nixed it. He has to agree to trade. I'm sure Luongo does not want to go to a rebuilding team or a team that is hovering around 8th seed. He'll be farther away from a cup than he is with the Canucks. At least being on the bench, he is still guaranteed to hoist the Stanley Cup.

But forgetting Luongo's power in where he gets traded. Lets' get back to Gillis. He already has a price that he has set for Luongo. We all know the asking price is high. And he does not want to move away from the asking price. GM's do have other options. They know that Gillis is desperate to make a move.

Who knows what's going on behind the scenes. Luongo has played the situation with class. He knows his value is already low due to his contract. He doesn't want to come off as a chemistry killer or a player with locker room issues so he just keeps quiet and says the right things on the media. But looking at Luongo's face every time he doesn't start, you can tell that it's starting to hit him.

Finally, GM's don't have the final say on the trade. It has to be signed off by the owner. A GM would have to make a heck of a case to prove to the owner that Luongo and his 10 year contract with 5 million cap hit will help them in the short run AND long run. Luongo isn't a superstar. People won't come just because Luongo is in net. The GM would be on an equally worse position if Luongo doesn't work out for them and they are stuck with his contract. So they could get fired either way.

Gillis knows he ****ed up with that huge contract. Now he's paying for it. Don't be surprise that it gets him fired at the end of the season. If he trades Luongo, fans are expecting a big return, but no one is offering such big return. And if he trades for peanuts, then most likely he will get fired either way.

So at the end of the day, don't look at other GM's and whether or not they will get fired for not trading for Luongo. Gillis is also in the same position. I would even argue that he's in a worse position than other GMs.
Well, I certainly like and agree with your optimistic assertion, for starters...

Outside of the Leafs, I don't think Luongo would turn down all these other destinations too. Considering the situation, you also admit that he may be changing his stance on that. But that's beside the point.

You can say other GM's have these other options, but how many of them are projects (Elliot, Bishop) or young guys who aren't sure things (Bernier)? There's a lot of risk involved for a team that's on the bubble to take on someone who isn't proven and may need time to get to where they think he can be. Miller, perhaps, is the only other comparable and he should garner a good return, even though I see Luongo as the better goalie.

When you talk trade, you almost have to look at the GM in question as well as where their team is at. McPhee, for one, is likely gone at the end of the season. Yet if he had consistent goaltending from the beginning his team would be in a playoff position. Holmgren could be on the hot seat - already fired one coach and is likely to make the big change by buying out Bryz this summer. How many more moves can he pull off to keep buying him time? Tallon's job might be on the line too when he's already been entrenched for longer than the recent GM's they've had in Florida.

Is it really worth throwing your season away just because you don't want to pay up for an established starter? If you can accuse MG of setting the price too high, you can also accuse other GM's of trying to lowball him. Of course he has to set the bar high - it's a classic negotiating tactic. We all saw that during the lockout. It's not like his demands can't come down - but you have to have reasonable negotiations in the first place. Which, from what we've heard, hasn't even occurred. If these teams thought acquiring Luongo and his long contract would a mistake, why would they even send in offers at all if they were scared they'd be stuck with it?

Finally, why would Gillis be in a worse position? The guy coming off 2 straight President's Trophies? Where are all these other No. 1 goalies that are available for trade?


Last edited by vanuck: 03-30-2013 at 06:43 AM.
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Old
03-30-2013, 06:56 AM
  #931
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bozak colborne and a first?
Wow....really? No.

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03-30-2013, 07:08 AM
  #932
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Whew! I'm glad you clarified that. The Leafs wouldn't want to trade anything of any value. I mean you might actually find a trading partner that way. Wouldn't it be easier for the Canucks to just buyout Luongo rather than pay and use up contract spots on the leaf's excess rubbish.
Of course it would be easier to buy him out. I'm sure your owner lay out that millions of dollars with a smile on his face.

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03-30-2013, 07:08 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by Catamarca Livin View Post
That is fair enough being a Toronto fan you do not know the difference between boderline NHL goaltending and elite goaltending. How would you know? Luongo eventhough is now a second string goalie in Vancouver would likely be in the mix to be a goalie on Team Canada. You might be surprised to know he was the starting goalie for team Canada in the 2010 Olympics taking the job from Martin Brodeur who you might remember played and still does play hockey with the New Jersey Devils. The Devils team who beat you in the conference finals the last time the Leafs had good goaltending over a decade ago. Another player Luongo beat out to play net for Canada was Fleury of Pittsburgh not sure you are familar with him but he did win a stanley cup with the Pengiuns as well as go to the finals before the olympics not sure if you watch the playoffs or not. So these are the peers of Luongo. Goaltenders like Fleury, Brodeur other Olympic goalies like Miller Quick Lunquist, do you see how that might be different from an AHL goalie and another young goalie who is up and down when he is not concussed. If not I understand how could you know the difference the onlu goalies you watch on a regular basis are these goalies. We use to feel your pain before Luongo Alex Auld one year was voted our most valuable player.Coultier was thoght of as being bettter than average their were numerous goalies between Mclean and Luongo who were thought were good. They were not we just did not know any better. Management lied to us some of the same management who has lied to you for the last 5 years. No your goalies are not good enough that is the truth. Deny it. Spin it get angry or deal with it.

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Old
03-30-2013, 08:25 AM
  #934
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
I can't speak for all Leafs fans, but the sane ones would all agree that Luongo is a better goalie than what we have.

The negatives start with the contract....some of us can even deal with that.

The cost to aquire is where we all jump ship. If our goalies were failing...we may have been willing to deal things like our 1st amongst other things, but they are not failing.

The main issue(s) for us is that you are selling Luongo on skill alone and want us to overlook the fact that his deal has 10 years on it with penalties attached. He isn't exactly young anymore. You refuse to take cap back when dealing such an albatross of a contract. And the most important....the price tag.

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03-30-2013, 09:28 AM
  #935
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I can't speak for all Leafs fans, but the sane ones would all agree that Luongo is a better goalie than what we have.

The negatives start with the contract....some of us can even deal with that.

The cost to aquire is where we all jump ship. If our goalies were failing...we may have been willing to deal things like our 1st amongst other things, but they are not failing.

The main issue(s) for us is that you are selling Luongo on skill alone and want us to overlook the fact that his deal has 10 years on it with penalties attached. He isn't exactly young anymore. You refuse to take cap back when dealing such an albatross of a contract. And the most important....the price tag.
I could come aboard with swapping Grabovski + Scrivens for Luongo but would prefer to add on our side to get one cheaper contracts that could make an impact sooner than later (Franson, Frattin, Finn), maybe adding Schroeder to do it, if need be. That way we could stomach Grabs' hit cap without as much concern.

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03-30-2013, 09:48 AM
  #936
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I could come aboard with swapping Grabovski + Scrivens for Luongo but would prefer to add on our side to get one cheaper contracts that could make an impact sooner than later (Franson, Frattin, Finn), maybe adding Schroeder to do it, if need be. That way we could stomach Grabs' hit cap without as much concern.
I know i sound frustrating to you guys, but, Franson has fit in very well here (we're actually looking for another top 4 D, not really looking to deal any of our top 6). Frattin seems like he will work out well here (i would consider moving him personally) and Finn is so highly regarded around here i'd be chastised for considering it.

Question, and don't get your hopes up....just how bad is Ballard? Are we talking Komicerek bad? Would taking him ease the pain at all?

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03-30-2013, 09:51 AM
  #937
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Question, and don't get your hopes up....just how bad is Ballard? Are we talking Komicerek bad? Would taking him ease the pain at all?
Bad fit on the Canucks; he seems to excel in a more of a "free wheeling" type of system. With the Canucks, unless your name is Bieksa, you have to play "within the system" or you're a "Black Ace".

Doesn't help he's a left side D (and we have plenty of those but a shortage of right side D).

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03-30-2013, 10:00 AM
  #938
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Bad fit on the Canucks; he seems to excel in a more of a "free wheeling" type of system. With the Canucks, unless your name is Bieksa, you have to play "within the system" or you're a "Black Ace".

Doesn't help he's a left side D (and we have plenty of those but a shortage of right side D).
We are looking for somebody defensively sound to eat minutes and take some of the pressure off of Dion. Hoping for J-BO or morris myself.

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03-30-2013, 10:13 AM
  #939
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Have to think that at this point, the asking price and conditions have slackened a little bit. The off-season goalie market is going to have Bernier and Miller as options for teams looking to strengthen their goalie position.

From Vancouver's perspective, the deal either has to include a capable backup goalie, or they have to acquire one separately because Eddie Lack is not ready.

If Toronto is the target, they desperately want to make the playoffs, so they are not going to give up a player at a core position that they need down the stretch. Gillis has said that he is not interested in a futures oriented deal, but I think now, this is one thing he can move on. If the centre piece of the Luongo deal is a first round pick plus a decent prospect I would take it.

Other teams that should be interested in Luongo are Tampa Bay, Washington, New Jersey and possibly Buffalo. I'm not sure if Stevie Y is convinced yet that he made a mistake with Lindback, and New Jersey probably doesn't want to add Luongo's contract to Kovalchuck's.

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03-30-2013, 10:19 AM
  #940
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
We are looking for somebody defensively sound to eat minutes and take some of the pressure off of Dion. Hoping for J-BO or morris myself.
Toronto hasn't always been too kind to defensemen - personally think JayBo would wilt under the media glare there. Otherwise, he'd be normally a player who can eat a ton of minutes as a defensive defenseman - provided the spotlight isn't shined on him or there *isn't* any kind of pressure (see his time as a Panther when they needed him the most).....

I can see either a lesser team or a Cup contending team offering more for him (so he'd either be in place where not many care if you win/lose or a merely a "supporting cast member" of an already great team).

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03-30-2013, 10:25 AM
  #941
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If it's TOR, a reduced cap-hit Grabovski makes a ton of sense. The prime pieces are right there, all that needs to happen now is for both GMs to put ego aside and get it done. It's up to TO. Is their future with Bozak or Grabovski? I don't see them both being retained over the long haul.

Bozak is set to get paid. And he plays higher up in the lines. So it makes complete sense for them to deal Grabovski now. Get it done.

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03-30-2013, 10:27 AM
  #942
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Bozak is set to get paid. And he plays higher up in the lines. So it makes complete sense for them to deal Grabovski now. Get it done.
I think Grabs is the far superior player. For whatever reason, he's having an awful year this season.

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03-30-2013, 10:34 AM
  #943
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I think Grabs is the far superior player. For whatever reason, he's having an awful year this season.
New contracitis?

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03-30-2013, 10:35 AM
  #944
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I think Grabs is the far superior player. For whatever reason, he's having an awful year this season.
I do too, but offensively they have tended to favour Bozak. He also offers them the chance to give out a better contract. And to deal Grabovski if they no longer see value in his. Kadri's emergence has essentially put a target on Grabovski's back, right or wrong.

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03-30-2013, 10:35 AM
  #945
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I think Grabs is the far superior player. For whatever reason, he's having an awful year this season.
He's playing tougher minutes than Malhotra did when he was here (and tougher than Kesler has at any time in his career), that's why.

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03-30-2013, 10:37 AM
  #946
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Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
He was every bit as good as Luongo in his days with the Leafs.

His winning percentage was nuts, Belfour would have had the most wins in 2003 and 2004 had the Leafs played him as much as the goalies ahead of him(finished 3rd both years in win). In 2003 he was 4 wins off the Lead with 9 less games played. In 2004 he was 4 games off the Lead with 16 less games played. Luongo has had some similar 'luck' in that department as well though.

Still doesn't ignore that Belfour was Elite, and in his career better than Luongo. Leafs also had Cujo, another elite goaltender.

** After reading the Mods post on the pervious page, I'm going to drop this topic because it might derail the thread.**
Eh... debatable that Belfour is a better goalie over his career than Luongo. True Belfour was a great goalie (as was Cujo) but the overall #'s compared to Luongo's are very similar and Belfour was 'mostly' behind great teams.

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03-30-2013, 10:58 AM
  #947
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I do too, but offensively they have tended to favour Bozak. He also offers them the chance to give out a better contract. And to deal Grabovski if they no longer see value in his. Kadri's emergence has essentially put a target on Grabovski's back, right or wrong.
Toronto is not in a position to pay some of his salary. Carlyle is smart enough to know that a big reason for Kadri's success has been Grabovski's ability to play all the tough minutes for them.

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03-30-2013, 11:05 AM
  #948
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I think Grabs is the far superior player. For whatever reason, he's having an awful year this season.
If you are basing it clearly by looking at the box score, then i agree. (although in the last few games he has been scoring as well) If you actually watch him play however, he really hasn't been bad, Carlyle has just totally changed his role to "shutdown" center. The play of Kadri has brought this on.

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03-30-2013, 11:09 AM
  #949
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Luo is better than Belfour or Cujo but needs a cup and maybe a Veznia to make most people realize it

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03-30-2013, 11:15 AM
  #950
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Canucks have put Booth on LTIR, freeing up 4+ million in cap space, per Bob McKenzie tweet.
Would need to do that if taking back a Komisarek or a Connolly, for instance, in a Luongo trade.

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