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The Luongo Thread - Razor Ramon Edition (MOD WARNING POST #922)

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Old
03-23-2013, 03:08 AM
  #176
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Anyone think Winnipeg could be in the market for getting a goaltender?
Pavelec's stats this season:

GP A PIM Min GA EN SO GAA W L T Svs Pct
29 0 2 1646 78 0 0 2.84 13 14 2 714 0.902

Montoya is nothing to write home about either.

I don't think we get Kane, but I wonder if the pre-season rumours about him wanting out of the Peg are true and if being from Vancouver would impact any trades between the teams.

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03-23-2013, 01:44 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
While it us hurting his value, it is still worth more than two 2nds. We know his value is somewhere around Kadri, Bozak and a second. I think Kadri and a second is worth more than two seconds, let a lone adding Bozak.

Realistic value, that I have been saying the entire time is around 3 1sts. however you want to break that up is up to the teams involved. But it most likely will be in the form of a prospect, a roster player and some pick.
We're not getting Kadri anymore. At this point in time he's the more valuable player, now and going forward. Kadri has been lights out and is over a point per game and Luongo has been mediocre/poor after an excellent start. Kadri's young and has potential to improve his game and Luongo is aging and in all likelihood has seen his best days.

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03-23-2013, 01:48 PM
  #178
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Anyone think Winnipeg could be in the market for getting a goaltender?
Pavelec's stats this season:

GP A PIM Min GA EN SO GAA W L T Svs Pct
29 0 2 1646 78 0 0 2.84 13 14 2 714 0.902

Montoya is nothing to write home about either.

I don't think we get Kane, but I wonder if the pre-season rumours about him wanting out of the Peg are true and if being from Vancouver would impact any trades between the teams.
I think it's a good fit BUT I think they'd rather have Schneider. Loved in the Peg etc.

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03-23-2013, 02:38 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Lindt View Post
We're not getting Kadri anymore. At this point in time he's the more valuable player, now and going forward. Kadri has been lights out and is over a point per game and Luongo has been mediocre/poor after an excellent start. Kadri's young and has potential to improve his game and Luongo is aging and in all likelihood has seen his best days.
Never said we would, just stated the value at the beginning of the season. The value stays the same, a prospect with equal value to Kadri at the beginning of the season. A roster player, and a 1st. A package that has the value of 3 1sts.

I also think you seem to be undervaluing Lu, and over valuing Kadri. Kadri is having a real good season, no taking away from that. He is someone I wanted in a deal with TO, and it is in their best interested to not trade him. But that does not mean his value in a vacuum is greater than Lu's. While his numbers may not be great, there is a lot more to look at then his numbers. There are many people here that can show, using numbers that he has a very realistic chance at still being top 10 until the age of 40, and maybe beyond. So that leaves 6 years of good goaltending.

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03-23-2013, 02:59 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Never said we would, just stated the value at the beginning of the season. The value stays the same, a prospect with equal value to Kadri at the beginning of the season. A roster player, and a 1st. A package that has the value of 3 1sts.

I also think you seem to be undervaluing Lu, and over valuing Kadri. Kadri is having a real good season, no taking away from that. He is someone I wanted in a deal with TO, and it is in their best interested to not trade him. But that does not mean his value in a vacuum is greater than Lu's. While his numbers may not be great, there is a lot more to look at then his numbers. There are many people here that can show, using numbers that he has a very realistic chance at still being top 10 until the age of 40, and maybe beyond. So that leaves 6 years of good goaltending.
Kadri is certainly still unproven but I don't think anyone can deny he's likely to stick as a top 6 player in the league. Luongo is an aging goalie with an unfavourable contract. He's still great, but I wouldn't put him in the elite category anymore. If the Canucks really felt he could be great until 40, they would have traded Schneider already.

Luongo is not worth 3 first rounders or the equivalent. A top 10 goalie means he's in the top third of the league. While that's good, I'd rather have a younger, point per game player and take my chances with a younger, middle of the pack goalie with potential for improvement.

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03-23-2013, 03:29 PM
  #181
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Kadri is certainly still unproven but I don't think anyone can deny he's likely to stick as a top 6 player in the league. Luongo is an aging goalie with an unfavourable contract. He's still great, but I wouldn't put him in the elite category anymore. If the Canucks really felt he could be great until 40, they would have traded Schneider already.

Luongo is not worth 3 first rounders or the equivalent. A top 10 goalie means he's in the top third of the league. While that's good, I'd rather have a younger, point per game player and take my chances with a younger, middle of the pack goalie with potential for improvement.
Call me when Kadri produces at this level for more than a season (a lockout shortened one to boot). We've seen this happen hundreds of times, where a young prospect comes to the show, lights it up and then goes the way of the dodo.

I've been surprised and impressed by Kadri, but I know what Luongo brings year in and year out....with Kadri, you're just hoping he's not one of the thousands of one year wonders.

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03-23-2013, 04:49 PM
  #182
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Call me when Kadri produces at this level for more than a season (a lockout shortened one to boot). We've seen this happen hundreds of times, where a young prospect comes to the show, lights it up and then goes the way of the dodo.

I've been surprised and impressed by Kadri, but I know what Luongo brings year in and year out....with Kadri, you're just hoping he's not one of the thousands of one year wonders.
I am going to call bs on that. Are there thousands of 22 year olds who score at Over a point a game for 30 games in the NHL then vanish? Name three guys like that. I can't think of anyone.
What I am reading here are a bunch of Vancouver fans who have pots grapes over missing out on a possible future super star.

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03-23-2013, 05:04 PM
  #183
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I am going to call bs on that. Are there thousands of 22 year olds who score at Over a point a game for 30 games in the NHL then vanish? Name three guys like that. I can't think of anyone.
What I am reading here are a bunch of Vancouver fans who have pots grapes over missing out on a possible future super star.
The prospect coming back is supposed to be a great prospect... The only thing that changed, from the beginning of the season, for me, is that Kadri went from a completely questionable prospect, to now, a prospect that a potential Luongo trade is supposed to return (plus more)... But, there are still question marks regarding Kadri... like there would be question marks on any prospect(s) that Luongo would/should/will return...

If Kadri has moved from a bad to good to great prospect... Well, maybe Toronto can now be added into the equation as a possible suitor... Before Kadri proved himself as a good to great prospect, it was simply Toronto trying to get Luongo for crap or questionable return... which just would never happen... no matter how loud you or Toronto fans scream it...

Sour grapes? ********... More like, now speaking the correct language... Too high now for Toronto that this speculated return might actually now be considered some value? That's Toronto's problem... A good to great prospect + more, is what it will take Toronto to get Luongo...

But, obviously, Toronto never was going to and never will get Luongo...


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03-23-2013, 06:05 PM
  #184
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Derick Brassard was PPG in his rookie season after about 30 games before he got hurt, wasn't he?

As much as Kadri's value has increased, to me it's still not greater than that of Luongo's. Can he stay at PPG for a full season, and prove he can do this consistently? Right now the elite goalie who's been putting up top numbers every year for a long time - on a good value contract to boot for an established No. 1 guy - still holds more value.

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03-23-2013, 06:21 PM
  #185
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The prospect coming back is supposed to be a great prospect... The only thing that changed, from the beginning of the season, for me, is that Kadri went from a completely questionable prospect, to now, a prospect that a potential Luongo trade is supposed to return (plus more)... But, there are still question marks regarding Kadri... like there would be question marks on any prospect(s) that Luongo would/should/will return...

If Kadri has moved from a bad to good to great prospect... Well, maybe Toronto can now be added into the equation as a possible suitor... Before Kadri proved himself as a good to great prospect, it was simply Toronto trying to get Luongo for crap or questionable return... which just would never happen... no matter how loud you or Toronto fans scream it...

Sour grapes? ********... More like, now speaking the correct language... Too high now for Toronto that this speculated return might actually now be considered some value? That's Toronto's problem... A good to great prospect + more, is what it will take Toronto to get Luongo...

But, obviously, Toronto never was going to and never will get Luongo...
First thing I am not a leafs fan and could care less if loungo goes there. I am just saying that to expect the guy who is eighth in the league in scoring as return is crazy. I would be shocked if you guys get a return anywhere near what you expect for him. Loungo is a good goalie I would love to see the oilers add a goalie like that, but considering the limited interest in him around the league, his contract and no trade clause ensuring the canucks have little leverage in trading him why would you get an elite young player in return?

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03-23-2013, 06:27 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
Derick Brassard was PPG in his rookie season after about 30 games before he got hurt, wasn't he?

As much as Kadri's value has increased, to me it's still not greater than that of Luongo's. Can he stay at PPG for a full season, and prove he can do this consistently? Right now the elite goalie who's been putting up top numbers every year for a long time - on a good value contract to boot for an established No. 1 guy - still holds more value.
I don't think brassard has ever been a ppg. The op said that young kids routinely do what kadris done then vanish. I think this a blatant falsehood. Btw if Kadri gets a ppg for a full season he won't be a prospect he will be a Team Canada possibility and a superstar. Very, very few players get ppg in today's NHL.

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03-23-2013, 06:33 PM
  #187
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I am going to call bs on that. Are there thousands of 22 year olds who score at Over a point a game for 30 games in the NHL then vanish? Name three guys like that. I can't think of anyone.
What I am reading here are a bunch of Vancouver fans who have pots grapes over missing out on a possible future super star.
Not really. I commended the kid. But also suggested he needed to prove it over larger sample than 30 games.

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03-23-2013, 07:19 PM
  #188
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First thing I am not a leafs fan and could care less if loungo goes there. I am just saying that to expect the guy who is eighth in the league in scoring as return is crazy. I would be shocked if you guys get a return anywhere near what you expect for him. Loungo is a good goalie I would love to see the oilers add a goalie like that, but considering the limited interest in him around the league, his contract and no trade clause ensuring the canucks have little leverage in trading him why would you get an elite young player in return?
Yes, I understand your type's argument...

I personally expect a good to great prospect +... I'm not expecting Kadri back... I'm not expecting anyone from Toronto back... I'm not expecting a trade with Toronto, period... I never have expected it... Don't see why I would expect it in the future... Toronto isn't forced to trade for Luongo... Canucks aren't forced to trade with Toronto... I don't know why the Canucks would need to ask for anything but a great return from Toronto... Same applies to Edmonton... I don't expect a Luongo trade to Edmonton... Never have expected it... Don't see why I would expect it in the future... It's just not going to happen with Toronto or Edmonton... But, if I end up shocked and it does happen, then I expect a great prospect + returning from Edmonton or Toronto...

Why on earth would Gillis accept anything less than this from Toronto or Edmonton? Because no one else wants Luongo? Luongo is sinking, and his contract is the anchor?

********, IMHO... If Luongo's contract is that much of a difference maker between an excellent prospect returning (and I'm talking about the difference between a potential franchise-type or 1st line of defense talent, and a 3rd or 4th liner, bottom pairing talent) the new CBA even allows for the Canucks to retain salary and cap space... Albeit, I realize that your type likes to look at the half glass empty in this situation, and retaining salary and cap space likely wouldn't be necessary to get a nice return... But, the option is there... Why wouldn't Gillis do it? Is the cap not expected to rise significantly in the coming years? Are entry level contracts not artificially lower than the contributions that excellent young players can provide?

How much more is Luongo worth to Toronto or Edmonton if the Canucks are also paying, say, $1mil of his salary (and related cap space) each year? I realize that the game is to minimize Luongo's value, so your argument will probably be it's not possible given the Canucks situation, or not much of a noticable difference value-wise...

Gillis has options here... and Gillis won't be ok with getting the return that you're expecting... You think he would be ok with it... Getting the return that you expect? If not ok with it, you think he just has to accept it... like a piece of bad news given over something he can't control?

Ultimately, Gillis would trade Schneider first, IMO... Ultimately, Gillis would retain Luongo salary first, IMO... Ultimately, Gillis would ride both goaltenders again next year first, IMO... Gillis and the Canucks aren't as ****ed as you would like, or at least think... There is the right team, at the right time, that could really use Luongo... and Gillis can wait at least several more months if this team doesn't come forward over the next little while, until Gillis needs to decide what to do - if the right return isn't there yet... But again, Toronto isn't getting Luongo at any time, so I'm not expecting Kadri or any Toronto player back... Neither is Edmonton, so I'm not expecting anyone back from Edmonton either...

I realize that you think that because Luongo hasn't been traded yet, that topologically implies that there is little interest in Luongo... But, IMO, this is Kypreos type thinking...


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Old
03-23-2013, 07:32 PM
  #189
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I don't think brassard has ever been a ppg. The op said that young kids routinely do what kadris done then vanish. I think this a blatant falsehood. Btw if Kadri gets a ppg for a full season he won't be a prospect he will be a Team Canada possibility and a superstar. Very, very few players get ppg in today's NHL.
25 in 31 for Brassard. Not too far off. But that's beside the point. Even if Kadri doesn't put up exactly PPG, I wouldn't place his value as greater until he can show he can also do it consistently. Consistency is why Lu is valued - you know what you're going to get: a high level of performance year after year.

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03-24-2013, 10:10 PM
  #190
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The relative value of players is always a matter for debate. But here are two questions, one you collectively can answer. I'll supply the answer to the second. And honestly, as a Vancouver resident, I do follow the Canucks and want to keep this polite. I agree also that it is Gillis' job to maximize the retun for Luongo.

How many Canucks fans wish Gillis had pulled the trigger on the rumored Kadri plus deal? You can answer that better than I can.

Here's the second question: how many Leafs fans are now hugely relieved that Gillis did not pull the trigger on the deal. Answer: close enough to everybody that it makes no difference.

It's often said that some of a team's best trades are the ones that don't happen. This sure looks like one of them right now, from the Leafs perspective.

All the best with the rest of the season and with the Luongo trade, which I don't think is likely with the Leafs.

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03-24-2013, 10:13 PM
  #191
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The relative value of players is always a matter for debate. But here are two questions, one you collectively can answer. I'll supply the answer to the second. And honestly, as a Vancouver resident, I do follow the Canucks and want to keep this polite. I agree also that it is Gillis' job to maximize the retun for Luongo.

How many Canucks fans wish Gillis had pulled the trigger on the rumored Kadri plus deal? You can answer that better than I can.

Here's the second question: how many Leafs fans are now hugely relieved that Gillis did not pull the trigger on the deal. Answer: close enough to everybody that it makes no difference.

It's often said that some of a team's best trades are the ones that don't happen. This sure looks like one of them right now, from the Leafs perspective.

All the best with the rest of the season and with the Luongo trade, which I don't think is likely with the Leafs.
In hindsight, or at this very moment, I still wouldn't trade Luongo for Kadri, Bozak and a 2.

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03-24-2013, 10:24 PM
  #192
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In hindsight, or at this very moment, I still wouldn't trade Luongo for Kadri, Bozak and a 2.
Good! Then both of us are happy.

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03-25-2013, 11:03 AM
  #193
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The relative value of players is always a matter for debate. But here are two questions, one you collectively can answer. I'll supply the answer to the second. And honestly, as a Vancouver resident, I do follow the Canucks and want to keep this polite. I agree also that it is Gillis' job to maximize the retun for Luongo.

How many Canucks fans wish Gillis had pulled the trigger on the rumored Kadri plus deal? You can answer that better than I can.

Here's the second question: how many Leafs fans are now hugely relieved that Gillis did not pull the trigger on the deal. Answer: close enough to everybody that it makes no difference.

It's often said that some of a team's best trades are the ones that don't happen. This sure looks like one of them right now, from the Leafs perspective.

All the best with the rest of the season and with the Luongo trade, which I don't think is likely with the Leafs.
You are under scoring what the implications of that trade would have been.

The style of play would have changed on both teams. Kadri would not have been thrown into the lineup here. He would not have put up as flashy of numbers as he has in Toronto.

And Loungo would have calmed down the style in Toronto. It could just as easily been a win win if the trade happened. I think both teams are more balanced if if happened.

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03-25-2013, 12:33 PM
  #194
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Yes, I understand your type's argument...

I personally expect a good to great prospect +... I'm not expecting Kadri back... I'm not expecting anyone from Toronto back... I'm not expecting a trade with Toronto, period... I never have expected it... Don't see why I would expect it in the future... Toronto isn't forced to trade for Luongo... Canucks aren't forced to trade with Toronto... I don't know why the Canucks would need to ask for anything but a great return from Toronto... Same applies to Edmonton... I don't expect a Luongo trade to Edmonton... Never have expected it... Don't see why I would expect it in the future... It's just not going to happen with Toronto or Edmonton... But, if I end up shocked and it does happen, then I expect a great prospect + returning from Edmonton or Toronto...

Why on earth would Gillis accept anything less than this from Toronto or Edmonton? Because no one else wants Luongo? Luongo is sinking, and his contract is the anchor?

********, IMHO... If Luongo's contract is that much of a difference maker between an excellent prospect returning (and I'm talking about the difference between a potential franchise-type or 1st line of defense talent, and a 3rd or 4th liner, bottom pairing talent) the new CBA even allows for the Canucks to retain salary and cap space... Albeit, I realize that your type likes to look at the half glass empty in this situation, and retaining salary and cap space likely wouldn't be necessary to get a nice return... But, the option is there... Why wouldn't Gillis do it? Is the cap not expected to rise significantly in the coming years? Are entry level contracts not artificially lower than the contributions that excellent young players can provide?

How much more is Luongo worth to Toronto or Edmonton if the Canucks are also paying, say, $1mil of his salary (and related cap space) each year? I realize that the game is to minimize Luongo's value, so your argument will probably be it's not possible given the Canucks situation, or not much of a noticable difference value-wise...

Gillis has options here... and Gillis won't be ok with getting the return that you're expecting... You think he would be ok with it... Getting the return that you expect? If not ok with it, you think he just has to accept it... like a piece of bad news given over something he can't control?

Ultimately, Gillis would trade Schneider first, IMO... Ultimately, Gillis would retain Luongo salary first, IMO... Ultimately, Gillis would ride both goaltenders again next year first, IMO... Gillis and the Canucks aren't as ****ed as you would like, or at least think... There is the right team, at the right time, that could really use Luongo... and Gillis can wait at least several more months if this team doesn't come forward over the next little while, until Gillis needs to decide what to do - if the right return isn't there yet... But again, Toronto isn't getting Luongo at any time, so I'm not expecting Kadri or any Toronto player back... Neither is Edmonton, so I'm not expecting anyone back from Edmonton either...

I realize that you think that because Luongo hasn't been traded yet, that topologically implies that there is little interest in Luongo... But, IMO, this is Kypreos type thinking...
Listen, frankly stated, I just dont see Luongo having the value that Canucks fans think he does, but thats what a discussion board is for I suppose. To me the guy has shown in the playoffs that he isnt the elite A-level goalie that he once was perceived to be. Thats enough for me to move on and look at someone else who may be of similar value, but where the team trading him is not expecting a massive return.
Besides, whats the Canucks leverage? You obviously need help - and that doesn't empower Gillis in any trade negotiations. The Wild is sitting 2 points behind you in the Northwest and the Sedins aren't getting any younger. The minute the have trouble producing at the same level they are right now, the Canucks are no longer a playoff team.
So you have an asset you can parlay into a young offensive player(s) to take the torch from the twins, but the clock is clicking on any trade.

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03-25-2013, 12:35 PM
  #195
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Listen, frankly stated, I just dont see Luongo having the value that Canucks fans think he does, but thats what a discussion board is for I suppose. To me the guy has shown in the playoffs that he isnt the elite A-level goalie that he once was perceived to be. Thats enough for me to move on and look at someone else who may be of similar value, but where the team trading him is not expecting a massive return.
Besides, whats the Canucks leverage? You obviously need help - and that doesn't empower Gillis in any trade negotiations. The Wild is sitting 2 points behind you in the Northwest and the Sedins aren't getting any younger. The minute the have trouble producing at the same level they are right now, the Canucks are no longer a playoff team.
So you have an asset you can parlay into a young offensive player(s) to take the torch from the twins, but the clock is clicking on any trade.
Listen, We'd go to the Oilers board if we cared what you thought.

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03-25-2013, 12:37 PM
  #196
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25 in 31 for Brassard. Not too far off. But that's beside the point. Even if Kadri doesn't put up exactly PPG, I wouldn't place his value as greater until he can show he can also do it consistently. Consistency is why Lu is valued - you know what you're going to get: a high level of performance year after year.
25 in 31 versus 34 in 32?
Yeah I suppose the numbers are somewhat similar, but there is an obvious difference.
Secondly, the OP stated that what Kadri is doing this year happens all the time - this is clearly not the case as you were able to give ONE example (and even that doesnt apply since Brassard was not PPG)
For the life of me I cant remember a player in his early 20's to do what Kadri has done this year over ~35 games and then vanished, that doesn't happen. For a guy to produce over 30-35 games in the NHL he cannot be a fluke.
As an Oiler fan stranded in TO I see him play fairly often so I could say I watch enough of him play to realize that he is a dynamic talent.

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03-25-2013, 12:38 PM
  #197
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Listen, We'd go to the Oilers board if we cared what you thought.
Is'nt this a discussion board? I can post where I like, I'm not trolling or anything, just discussing. Also the Oilers board is not a fun place to be these days.

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03-25-2013, 12:41 PM
  #198
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The relative value of players is always a matter for debate. But here are two questions, one you collectively can answer. I'll supply the answer to the second. And honestly, as a Vancouver resident, I do follow the Canucks and want to keep this polite. I agree also that it is Gillis' job to maximize the retun for Luongo.

How many Canucks fans wish Gillis had pulled the trigger on the rumored Kadri plus deal? You can answer that better than I can.

Here's the second question: how many Leafs fans are now hugely relieved that Gillis did not pull the trigger on the deal. Answer: close enough to everybody that it makes no difference.It's often said that some of a team's best trades are the ones that don't happen. This sure looks like one of them right now, from the Leafs perspective.

All the best with the rest of the season and with the Luongo trade, which I don't think is likely with the Leafs.
I think it would be better to ask that question at the end of the season. If the Leafs perform their annual swoon near the end of the season yet again because of poor goaltending then you may find more than a few Leaf fans wishing they had acquired a legitimate starting goalie. I don't think Kadri was ever offered in a trade so I'm not really concerned one way or the other. Had he been offered then I would definitely (in hindsight) wish that trade had happened. As I said, so much depends on the Leaf's fortunes for the rest of this year and whether they are able to pick up a legitimate starter in the offseason. If not, I think many Leaf fans will regret not acquiring Luongo.


Last edited by vanwest: 03-25-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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03-25-2013, 12:41 PM
  #199
bleed_oil
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
In hindsight, or at this very moment, I still wouldn't trade Luongo for Kadri, Bozak and a 2.
That comment seems highly disingenuous, but even if its true I would suspect you are one of the very few Canuck fans who feel that way.

Regardless, all will be decided when Luongo actually moves. And either of the goalies have to move eventually.
As an Oiler fan I think we could use a talented veteran goalie, Dubnyk is hit and miss. I value Luongo enough to say I would happily part with PRV+ to get Lu.
I don't think that the Canucks eventual trade return will match that.

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03-25-2013, 12:43 PM
  #200
arsmaster*
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Is'nt this a discussion board? I can post where I like, I'm not trolling or anything, just discussing. Also the Oilers board is not a fun place to be these days.
Sure, but it seems like you feel what you're saying is new, and hasn't be said before.

We, as Canuck fans, have been here the whole time.

You haven't added a thing that hasn't be said before.

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