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Old
03-17-2013, 05:57 PM
  #26
Calculon
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
For argument sake what do you do if we are 2 points up on 8th?
Personally, I'd still sell. The simply reality is, this team, as constructed, does not have what it takes to win the cup. And many the of pieces it does have are not going to be contributors for an eventual cup win. Rather than lose those pieces for nothing, whether they get old and can no longer contribute or simply walk as free agents, the Flames have to engage in some smart asset management. Indeed, if the fans and management do want to avoid a decade long rebuild process, they should start it now, while they still have assets that can still return some semblance of value. If instead they fall into a rebuild, like how the Oilers did, then yes, it could be a wholly miserable process.

At this point in time, it's still quite possible for the Flames to turn things around in fairly short amount of time, say 2 or 3 years. Move Iginla, Kipper, and Giordano as well as all the fringe roster players at this trade deadline, get a top five/ten pick in the upcoming draft, and go into next year much younger. Then next season, trade Cammalleri and Bouwmeester if he won't re-sign, get another top ten pick. With some luck, that is to say if Ramo pans out and the prospects the Flames do have as well the ones they acquire in the draft do pan out, they could be competitive by 2015.

But of course, there's no way the Flames would even think of selling if they were 2 points up on 8th. Most likely, that would be enough incentive for Iginla to re-sign, and the owners would likely push for Feaster to be a buyer at the deadline.

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03-17-2013, 06:05 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
Can't believe people want this team to lose. We're 4 points out of 8th and 6 points out of 3rd. I can't get over how dumb our fan base is.

Realistically, we can afford to trade Iggy still. He has not been a determining factor of us winning games.


If u want us lose then cheer for the oil.
I always find these comments hilarious. Different opinions = stupid/not a fan of this team.

Ok, if all goes according to plan we push for eighth and get eliminated in the first round and watch our captain and best player walk for greener pastures in July! I have given this core group of players enough leniency over the past six or seven years. As much as it pains me to say, the window for this team to win as it is currently constructed has indeed closed. That is simply the reality of the situation.

I don't quite think you understand just how difficult it is make up that much ground in the standings the way the point system is currently constructed. It's not even the amount of points that we would have to accumulate that is the difficult part in this scenario it is the amount of teams we would have to leap frog (5) just to get into 8th place currently.

Yes, I also understand that teams get hot a certain times and there is always the possibility that the Flames play consistently above what they have shown to this point. With that said, if the past three seasons are any indication I would not be willing to make that bet. Why would I suddenly expect them to take the next step?

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03-17-2013, 06:09 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Personally, I'd still sell. The simply reality is, this team, as constructed, does not have what it takes to win the cup. And many the of pieces it does have are not going to be contributors for an eventual cup win. Rather than lose those pieces for nothing, whether they get old and can no longer contribute or simply walk as free agents, the Flames have to engage in some smart asset management. Indeed, if the fans and management do want to avoid a decade long rebuild process, they should start it now, while they still have assets that can still return some semblance of value. If instead they fall into a rebuild, like how the Oilers did, then yes, it could be a wholly miserable process.

At this point in time, it's still quite possible for the Flames to turn things around in fairly short amount of time, say 2 or 3 years. Move Iginla, Kipper, and Giordano as well as all the fringe roster players at this trade deadline, get a top five/ten pick in the upcoming draft, and go into next year much younger. Then next season, trade Cammalleri and Bouwmeester if he won't re-sign, get another top ten pick. With some luck, that is to say if Ramo pans out and the prospects the Flames do have as well the ones they acquire in the draft do pan out, they could be competitive by 2015.

But of course, there's no way the Flames would even think of selling if they were 2 points up on 8th. Most likely, that would be enough incentive for Iginla to re-sign, and the owners would likely push for Feaster to be a buyer at the deadline.
I agree, I think we should sell but I don't agree with being ok with losing. I know as fans we want something to look forward to but accepting losing because we get a better draft pick is how you get a losing culture and personally I don't think I could ever become ok with losing and I don't know if I could cheer for this team if we accepted losing and in fact built a team that had no chance at anything but a high draft pick.

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03-17-2013, 06:19 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
Can't believe people want this team to lose. We're 4 points out of 8th and 6 points out of 3rd. I can't get over how dumb our fan base is.
I know you're frustrated Feaster, but calling the fans stupid isn't going to help. Go back to your office.

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03-17-2013, 06:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
I don't know if I could cheer for this team if we accepted losing and in fact built a team that had no chance at anything but a high draft pick.
No Flames fan here is suggesting that though... Not one.

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03-17-2013, 06:37 PM
  #31
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No Flames fan here is suggesting that though... Not one.
In this thread no in other threads yes they have suggested trading everyone and running with a terrible lineup.

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03-17-2013, 06:51 PM
  #32
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Also, my comment was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek.
Can't see your tongue from this side of the computer screen.

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03-17-2013, 06:54 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
I agree, I think we should sell but I don't agree with being ok with losing. I know as fans we want something to look forward to but accepting losing because we get a better draft pick is how you get a losing culture and personally I don't think I could ever become ok with losing and I don't know if I could cheer for this team if we accepted losing and in fact built a team that had no chance at anything but a high draft pick.
Which is why the organization doesn't trade everything and everyone in one go. Nor do they throw the weight of the franchise's success on the shoulders of rookies and kids. It's why I've always proposed the team keep one of Cammalleri or Tanguay, two of Giordano, Wideman and Bouwmeester, as well as Hudler and maybe even Stajan. There has to be some high end veteran presence on a roster that can show incoming young players what it takes to win, how hard they have to work and prepare, and so on. A key reason why the Flyers and the Sens managed to turn things around quickly was because they didn't trade everyone; they moved pieces that had a lot of value, but still kept guys like Timonen, Briere and Hartnell or Spezza, Alfredsson and Phillips.

Like I said, got to take one step back in order to take a step forward. Blindly crashing your head into the same wall over and over again isn't going to achieve anything than giving your franchise a concussion it could take years to recover from.

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03-17-2013, 07:08 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Which is why the organization doesn't trade everything and everyone in one go. Nor do they throw the weight of the franchise's success on the shoulders of rookies and kids. It's why I've always proposed the team keep one of Cammalleri or Tanguay, two of Giordano, Wideman and Bouwmeester, as well as Hudler and maybe even Stajan. There has to be some high end veteran presence on a roster that can show incoming young players what it takes to win, how hard they have to work and prepare, and so on. A key reason why the Flyers and the Sens managed to turn things around quickly was because they didn't trade everyone; they moved pieces that had a lot of value, but still kept guys like Timonen, Briere and Hartnell or Spezza, Alfredsson and Phillips.

Like I said, got to take one step back in order to take a step forward. Blindly crashing your head into the same wall over and over again isn't going to achieve anything than giving your franchise a concussion it could take years to recover from.
Again I agree I just can't hope for this team to lose, in the long run it might be better but I don't think we should be solely focused on the future much like I don't think we should solely focus on winning now. I think several trades need to be made but I can't hope the lose so the organizations choice is easier they should be thinking of the future regardless.

Also there is a big difference between this team and the Ottawa team and Philly team, Philly had Carter and Richards about to enter the prime of their careers and were ready to take the next step (we don't have that) and both those teams had huge steals in the draft Karrlson (15th), Giroux (22nd).

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03-17-2013, 07:30 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Again I agree I just can't hope for this team to lose, in the long run it might be better but I don't think we should be solely focused on the future much like I don't think we should solely focus on winning now. I think several trades need to be made but I can't hope the lose so the organizations choice is easier they should be thinking of the future regardless.

Also there is a big difference between this team and the Ottawa team and Philly team, Philly had Carter and Richards about to enter the prime of their careers and were ready to take the next step (we don't have that) and both those teams had huge steals in the draft Karrlson (15th), Giroux (22nd).
You're not hoping they lose every game for the sake of a better draft pick. Rather, you hope they're trying to win and trying to do their best at all times, but at the same time, you're cognizant of the fact that the overall talent level of the team means they probably won't go very far or achieve a whole lot. And accordingly, the GM is always looking to improve the roster, whether those improvements come from a trade, free agent signing, or through a high pick at the draft. As an organization, you can't let your pride get in the way of improving your roster; you can't look down upon something like a high draft selection because you're too proud to see the team finish that low. You hope they don't, but if the talent level is weak, you plan accordingly.

Consider the Jackets, they most likely are not going to make the playoffs and will most likely finish with a top five pick, but they're still working hard and trying to win every game. They came into the season likely expecting the first overall pick in 2013, but that didn't stop them from wanting to improve and win as many games as they possibly could.

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03-17-2013, 07:39 PM
  #36
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We can afford to let Comeau, Cervenka and Babchuck to leave as UFAs but we cannot lose Iggy that way.

Flames management has to get an answer from him prior to the deadline. Re-sign for 3 to 4 years or accept a trade so we can get some assets back.

For the record I'm fine with either one, if Iginla has already shipped out in his mind then ask for the trade to help us out. Or just re-sign.

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03-17-2013, 07:56 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
You're not hoping they lose every game for the sake of a better draft pick. Rather, you hope they're trying to win and trying to do their best at all times, but at the same time, you're cognizant of the fact that the overall talent level of the team means they probably won't go very far or achieve a whole lot. And accordingly, the GM is always looking to improve the roster, whether those improvements come from a trade, free agent signing, or through a high pick at the draft. As an organization, you can't let your pride get in the way of improving your roster; you can't look down upon something like a high draft selection because you're too proud to see the team finish that low. You hope they don't, but if the talent level is weak, you plan accordingly.

Consider the Jackets, they most likely are not going to make the playoffs and will most likely finish with a top five pick, but they're still working hard and trying to win every game. They came into the season likely expecting the first overall pick in 2013, but that didn't stop them from wanting to improve and win as many games as they possibly could.
I think we are saying the same thing, my point was I don't get how anyone could try for their favorite team to lose.

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03-17-2013, 08:58 PM
  #38
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I support bombing the rest of this season instead of treading water for years to come.

You have to look at it this way, shortened season, deep draft, assets that will continue to decline in value...

This is honestly the BEST time to be apart of the rebuild. I'll still cheer for the Flames, but deep down I want this team to crash and burn and accept fate. I hate our team being the laughing stock of the league, having like 2 prospects, and players who have overstayed their welcome.

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03-17-2013, 09:45 PM
  #39
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I support bombing the rest of this season instead of treading water for years to come.

You have to look at it this way, shortened season, deep draft, assets that will continue to decline in value...

This is honestly the BEST time to be apart of the rebuild. I'll still cheer for the Flames, but deep down I want this team to crash and burn and accept fate. I hate our team being the laughing stock of the league, having like 2 prospects, and players who have overstayed their welcome.
Agreed with the bolded. Shortened season and a good top 10 (with some great looking top 5) draft choices, it's a good time to do some sort of rebuilding. But we all know the ownership wants the team to remain competitive, so who do we keep and let go?

I can see Iginla being moved to a contender. Comeau, Sarich, and The Anton being traded for picks, and one of Giordano or JBo being traded for future assets. I don't see much of anything else being done.

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03-18-2013, 12:13 AM
  #40
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Here's what I don't get about the tank: how bad is bad? If a team were to lose all 82 games, it would be so embarrassing that the club would never recover financially. So the tank has a limit, but what is it?

Let's break down the tank:
1) A team must be able to compete in its league for financial viability, hence win some games.
2) A player must try to compete in it's league to earn contracts
3) A team must display attempts to get better in order to compete and obtain players

Those statements alone suggest purposely tanking is not an option. A club has to legitimately suck before management feels new pieces are needed to win games. And the product of which is an inexperienced team that legitimately sucks but will hopefully get better. Otherwise you start again.

So for those who are unhappy the club wins games going forward, what else can you expect. You can't expect them to tank, purposely anyways

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03-18-2013, 09:26 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
For argument sake what do you do if we are 2 points up on 8th?
I'd still sell some assets. The last two years have gotten better, but we still need to get some more power in that prospects pool. If we can sell some of our veteran assets and remain semi competitive, cool. But we aren't built like an LA. The likelyhood of us doing anything even if we slipping into that 8th seed is slim to none. I'd rather start the process of building a great team for years than continue just trying to scrape into the playoffs.

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03-18-2013, 09:29 AM
  #42
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hopefully they start him over MacDonald.

We all know MacDonald is a career tweener between the AHL/NHL, but we should see if Taylor has a case for the backup job for next year.

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03-18-2013, 09:52 AM
  #43
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Agreed. Taylor's general composure and positioning in my opinion are far better than MacDonald's.

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03-18-2013, 10:38 AM
  #44
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I'd still sell some assets. The last two years have gotten better, but we still need to get some more power in that prospects pool. If we can sell some of our veteran assets and remain semi competitive, cool. But we aren't built like an LA. The likelyhood of us doing anything even if we slipping into that 8th seed is slim to none. I'd rather start the process of building a great team for years than continue just trying to scrape into the playoffs.
Yea I agree we should still sell off several players mainly the redundant guys Stempniak,Gio,Sarich,Comeau,Jackman,Smith and then we get to Iginla and I think we should move him but it is up to him if he wants to go if he wants to stay and re-signs I wouldn't complain.

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03-18-2013, 11:03 AM
  #45
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Agreed. Taylor's general composure and positioning in my opinion are far better than MacDonald's.
Really? I can't stand watching Taylor in the next. Worst rebound control of any of our goalies, and can't catch the puck to save his life. He is a pure position goalie, and thats it... Very little natural talent and reflexes.

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03-18-2013, 11:06 AM
  #46
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Really? I can't stand watching Taylor in the next. Worst rebound control of any of our goalies, and can't catch the puck to save his life. He is a pure position goalie, and thats it... Very little natural talent and reflexes.
So far I agree on the rebound control but the games I saw in the AHL he looked great to be honest (and I'm an Irving supporter), he admitted after his last game that he was sloppy I bet if he got another shot he would be that much better. But I am 95% confident MacDonald is starting.

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03-18-2013, 11:10 AM
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Yea I agree we should still sell off several players mainly the redundant guys Stempniak,Gio,Sarich,Comeau,Jackman,Smith and then we get to Iginla and I think we should move him but it is up to him if he wants to go if he wants to stay and re-signs I wouldn't complain.
Cause my feeling is do not purposely lose, but if we're going to be a bubble team anyways, may as well be playing a lot of young talent. For example, I'd rather see the Horaks/Byrons/Jones playing on the team than Comeau/Jackman/Babchuk's, just because yeah, they probably won't be that good, but you just know they will be trying their damndest every single night, and we can turn some of those vets into assets. If i'm going to watch a losing team, it may as well be a young one.

However, that being said, I think Bartschi needs to stay in Abbotsford at least for this year and the entirety of next. Even next season, he isn't going to be ready for a consistent top 6 role, and I think for his first couple of years, playing the 24 minutes a night, all situations, not getting upset at him for his mistakes is the best for his development. The Flames have a habit of bringing up prospects way too early, look at Backlund. His play is just starting to get good this year, but in all honesty, this probably should have been either his first or second year on the big club. He wasn't ready when we brought him up, and it severely hampered his growth. It's not a bad thing to keep those top prospects in the minors for 3-5 years if that's what they need, look at Detroit, they don't bring people up until they are ready. Even great prospects like Sven may not always be ready to step into the NHL for up to 5-6 years after being drafted, and it isn't a knock on them

Sorry to get OT there lol, just something I feel strongly about

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03-18-2013, 11:12 AM
  #48
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Here's what I don't get about the tank: how bad is bad? If a team were to lose all 82 games, it would be so embarrassing that the club would never recover financially. So the tank has a limit, but what is it?
I've always used the 74-75 Capitals as the absolute lower limit. If a team cannot win 8 games in an 82 game schedule then the league should step in and forcibly take over. If you can win more then you get to keep going and do whatever it is you're doing as a team.

Which is why I'd be OK with the team sending Kipper home for the next few weeks to look after the baby while Taylor and Macdonald (And Irving - when he recovers?) hold the fort.

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03-18-2013, 11:14 AM
  #49
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Cause my feeling is do not purposely lose, but if we're going to be a bubble team anyways, may as well be playing a lot of young talent. For example, I'd rather see the Horaks/Byrons/Jones playing on the team than Comeau/Jackman/Babchuk's, just because yeah, they probably won't be that good, but you just know they will be trying their damndest every single night, and we can turn some of those vets into assets. If i'm going to watch a losing team, it may as well be a young one.

However, that being said, I think Bartschi needs to stay in Abbotsford at least for this year and the entirety of next. Even next season, he isn't going to be ready for a consistent top 6 role, and I think for his first couple of years, playing the 24 minutes a night, all situations, not getting upset at him for his mistakes is the best for his development. The Flames have a habit of bringing up prospects way too early, look at Backlund. His play is just starting to get good this year, but in all honesty, this probably should have been either his first or second year on the big club. He wasn't ready when we brought him up, and it severely hampered his growth. It's not a bad thing to keep those top prospects in the minors for 3-5 years if that's what they need, look at Detroit, they don't bring people up until they are ready. Even great prospects like Sven may not always be ready to step into the NHL for up to 5-6 years after being drafted, and it isn't a knock on them

Sorry to get OT there lol, just something I feel strongly about
Personally I would play Aliu over Jackman (the kid gives it his all), I would trade Comeau but I do not question his effort level he is a Sutter type player. Babchuck isn't playing and most likely won't play again until around the deadline to showcase him. Byron doesn't belong on the 4th line neither does Horak, let them stay on the Heat and work with Sven on their offensive games. Jones was sent back down due to off ice stuff (most likely something in the locker room).

I understand what you are saying but we simply don't have that many nhl ready players.

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03-18-2013, 11:15 AM
  #50
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I've always used the 74-75 Capitals as the absolute lower limit. If a team cannot win 8 games in an 82 game schedule then the league should step in and forcibly take over. If you can win more then you get to keep going and do whatever it is you're doing as a team.

Which is why I'd be OK with the team sending Kipper home for the next few weeks to look after the baby while Taylor and Macdonald (And Irving - when he recovers?) hold the fort.
So you advocate tanking?

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