HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New Jersey Devils
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

2013 New Jersey Devils (Team News, Player Discussion - Part IX)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-22-2013, 10:43 AM
  #476
SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
 
SteveCangialosi123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,440
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingman77 View Post
A lot of people are going to be disappointed with their expectations of a lot of our D prospects
You drive home this point every chance you get. I'm expecting 1 or 2 of our d prospects to be full time nhl players with the rest busting. My bet is on Urbom and Merril. I can see Gelinas busting big time.

SteveCangialosi123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 10:47 AM
  #477
NJDevs26
Moderator
Status quo
 
NJDevs26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 28,076
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
They aren't going to openly state he was benched though.

I also think they wanted to sit him and it was part of a back to back so it was good timing to let him recover on the first night. He's played better since his "injury" including the night after. The merry go round hasn't hurt everyone...yet.
The merry go round has benefited the older guys (Sal, Volch and Tallinder all played better after coming back in) and hurt the younger guys (Fayne, Larsson).

NJDevs26 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 10:47 AM
  #478
The Green Unit
Registered User
 
The Green Unit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Yugoslavia
Posts: 4,862
vCash: 500
Based on eyetest or Advanced stats ?

The Green Unit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 10:48 AM
  #479
ThePSEGPowerPoster
LOSER POINTS!
 
ThePSEGPowerPoster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
You gotta be kidding. The one thing Salvador is known for is saving goals in the crease.
Really? Where is he known for that? This year he has been awful in the slot/crease. I just can't get behind the idea that he would have helped at all against the Canes.

Quote:
I guess we know how objective you are.
Well that's unfair. Whether you agree or disagree with me is ok but to claim I'm not objective is a stretch. We can think differently and not have one side lack objectivity and the other side be the beacon of truth, to borrow a term from one of the posters here. We can both sincerely think we're looking at the situation objectively and just form different opinions.

Quote:
And think what you want, he sat for an injury.
I don't buy it. Everyone in hockey is "hurt." He could have played through it but didn't. Was he winded? Maybe. Banged up? Maybe. But he wasn't sat exclusively because of an injury.

ThePSEGPowerPoster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 10:48 AM
  #480
MartyOwns
NYRB!!!2013********33333
 
MartyOwns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 10,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingman77 View Post
A lot of people are going to be disappointed with their expectations of a lot of our D prospects
what makes you say that? i think between gelinas, merril, larsson, POSSIBLY urbom, we should get at least 2 great ones

MartyOwns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 10:50 AM
  #481
MartyOwns
NYRB!!!2013********33333
 
MartyOwns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 10,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePSEGPowerPoster View Post
But he wasn't sat exclusively because of an injury.
and what makes YOU say THAT?!? what the hell is happening here??

MartyOwns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 10:51 AM
  #482
The Green Unit
Registered User
 
The Green Unit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Yugoslavia
Posts: 4,862
vCash: 500
Our forwards should be held accountable as much as the defence-men for our repetitive defensive breakdowns. They've made a ton of mistakes in the defensive zone too.

The Green Unit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 10:54 AM
  #483
billingtons ghost
Registered User
 
billingtons ghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyOwns View Post
what makes you say that? i think between gelinas, merril, larsson, POSSIBLY urbom, we should get at least 2 great ones
I think people are going to be surprised that the first call up will be Colin Whitish - someone like Hegelson.

I don't know Wing - you have to think that with the aforementioned plus Severson, Scarlett and Burlon - that someone has to pan out.

It could be that none of them become first pairing guys, but I would be surprised if we didn't get NHL careers out of at least 3 of the above - just based upon their size and mobility alone.

billingtons ghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 10:54 AM
  #484
The Green Unit
Registered User
 
The Green Unit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Yugoslavia
Posts: 4,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyOwns View Post
what makes you say that? i think between gelinas, merril, larsson, POSSIBLY urbom, we should get at least 2 great ones

He meant they will take some time before reaching expectations. Defence-men frequently need 3 or 4 seasons before feeling comfortable.

Larsson is playing exceptionally well for a player of his age.

The Green Unit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 11:15 AM
  #485
Feed Me A Stray Cat
Registered User
 
Feed Me A Stray Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 12,335
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Feed Me A Stray Cat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yashintangibles View Post
He meant they will take some time before reaching expectations. Defence-men frequently need 3 or 4 seasons before feeling comfortable.

Larsson is playing exceptionally well for a player of his age.
Agreed.

The vast majority of players are still toiling in juniors or the AHL at Larsson's age.

He will get stronger. He will get faster. He will continue to adjust to the pace of NHL play. That will come with maturation and experience.

What's blatantly obvious about his game is that he thinks it way better than most of the other players on the ice. That will always stay with him, and will only become more accentuated with his experience.

Feed Me A Stray Cat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 11:22 AM
  #486
ThePSEGPowerPoster
LOSER POINTS!
 
ThePSEGPowerPoster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10,483
vCash: 500
Decided to see if my opinion of Salvador is unfounded.

For starters, let's take a loot at the quality of competition the D-men have faced on the ice. I'm using +/- QoC (Quality of Competition), which is a relative statistic that utilizes CORSI in determining who the coaches trust against the top offensive players on other teams.

Devils Team Leaders: (1) Bryce Salvador 0.057, (2) Mark Fayne 0.040, (3) Adam Larsson -0.002, (4) Andy Greene -0.017, (5) Marek Zidlicky -0.057, (6) Henrik Tallinder -0.072, (7) Peter Harrold -0.074, (8) Anton Volchenkov -0.105

Now, Relative Corsi is what we can use next to determine which side controls play. This is weighed appropriately based on TOI so it does a good job of controlling the skewing of samples.

Devils Team Leaders: (1) Henrik Tallinder 18.8 (2) Marek Zidlicky (3) 7.5 Mark Fayne 6.7 (4) Anton Volchenkov (5) 5.7 Peter Harrold -5.6 (6)Andy Greene -7.9 (7) Adam Larsson -8.2 (8) Bryce Salvador -9.3

Corsi rewards Tallinder as the defender that controls possesion best on the team (he would be top 5 in the league if he qualified). Relative to Competition faced, Fayne is the best defender on the team, with Salvador putting up an abysmal -9.3 due to his inability to keep up with faster forwards.

Now let's take a look at one more variable that's important to consider on the Devils. OFF ZONE START % demonstrates how often a D man starts in his own zone.

(1) Marek Zidlicky 59.1% (2) Peter Harrold 56% (3) Henrik Tallinder 55% (4) Anton Volchenkov 52% (5) Adam Larsson 49% (6) Mark Fayne 46% (7) Andy Greene 44.8% (8) Bryce Salvador 44.5%

Not astonishing that Zids and Harrold are tops here. Not astonishing that Greene and Salvy are last because of their offensive problems. However, this demonstrates that maybe we're a little hard on Salvy given how he spends 56% of the game in the defensive zone.

Final statistic I'll look at is Save PCT . I won't post them right now because I've grown lazy but, in short, Salvy has benefited from the third best Save PCT .923 and 4 of the 8 defensemen (Larsson, Greene, Zid, and Harrold) play with a sub .900 Save PCT.

In short, though Salvy has played against the toughest competition, he is performing the worst out of all of our defenders. Though it's important to note he starts most of his shifts, backs to the wall - he does benefit by his goalie saving .923% of shots faced.

Salvador has been poor this year.

-source: Behindthenet.ca

ThePSEGPowerPoster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 11:23 AM
  #487
ThePSEGPowerPoster
LOSER POINTS!
 
ThePSEGPowerPoster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyOwns View Post
and what makes YOU say THAT?!? what the hell is happening here??
Because if the injury was that bad he likely sits in game or sits one of the games that follow. Salvador is tough. He's not sitting because of injury. Pete likely sat him under the guise of some sort of injury but if he was playing well he likely starts anyway.

ThePSEGPowerPoster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 11:54 AM
  #488
downtown56
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,121
vCash: 500
NHLDevilsPR: Lou Lamoriello says Harri Pesonen assigned to @AlbanyDevils. #njdevils

Poni and Tallinder are practicing today.

Zubrus more than a week away

downtown56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 11:55 AM
  #489
downtown56
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,121
vCash: 500
TGfireandice: Lamoriello said Josefson will resume skating this weekend, but won't play this weekend. Team handled his injury as a concussion.

downtown56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 12:00 PM
  #490
Wingman77
Glory Days
 
Wingman77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 18,523
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by downtown56 View Post
NHLDevilsPR: Lou Lamoriello says Harri Pesonen assigned to @AlbanyDevils. #njdevils

Poni and Tallinder are practicing today.

Zubrus more than a week away
Devils medical staff woes

So 4-6 weeks is now 6-8

Wingman77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 12:40 PM
  #491
Richer's Ghost
Global Moderator
Breakin' the law
 
Richer's Ghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: photoshop labor camp
Country: United States
Posts: 50,018
vCash: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePSEGPowerPoster View Post
Decided to see if my opinion of Salvador is unfounded.

For starters,

... 30 game stats ...

In short, though Salvy has played against the toughest competition, he is performing the worst out of all of our defenders. Though it's important to note he starts most of his shifts, backs to the wall - he does benefit by his goalie saving .923% of shots faced.

Salvador has been poor this year.

-source: Behindthenet.ca
Another statistician who only uses the window of sample data that fits his opinion - great. You should go read the "Devils should sit Marty thread from last year", it was a wonderful example of getting caught up in the what have you done lately game.

30 games vs 245 previous games where he repeatedly saved goal after goal on the rebound or back door pass by blocking out the attacker, and clearing out a puck on it's way in. It was his hallmark last year in case you weren't watching this team consistently until they had a cup run.

Salvador has had shaky games this season for sure, as has the entire defense team the last 5-6 weeks. Your description of him being infamously weak in the crease is a mischaracterization no matter how many stats you want to pile up and he is one of the only remaining D men we have since the departure of White that will move someone in the paint. "Sal's a Warrior" didn't just happen by accident. Pick apart his value all you like, debate the honesty of the organization and medical staff, but you misrepresented his style of play and described his strength as a weakness. There's a reason he gets the hardest matchups and plays the PK. You only have to look to last season's team leading +18 with over 100 hits and blocks both. He gets hard duty and doesn't have the luxury of offensive stats to cover up a bad game like some D.

__________________


Richer's Ghost is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 12:41 PM
  #492
Emperoreddy
Moderator
King of Pirates
 
Emperoreddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Jersey, Exit 16E
Country: United States
Posts: 21,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingman77 View Post
Devils medical staff woes

So 4-6 weeks is now 6-8
They are taking it really slow with his skating and when they put a stick back in his hand. I don't know if they are just being cautious or he just isn't there yet. Still Poni should be back soon and with today's trade we actually look a lot deeper. Sesito will be back in the A soon.

Emperoreddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 12:49 PM
  #493
JMarce
Registered User
 
JMarce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 1,985
vCash: 500
Tom Gulitti
‏@TGfireandice
Henrik Tallinder revealed his sprained his ankle warming up off the ice before pre-game warm-ups on March 7.

Talllinder wouldn't confirm that he sprained his ankle during pre-game soccer with teammates.


JMarce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 12:59 PM
  #494
ThePSEGPowerPoster
LOSER POINTS!
 
ThePSEGPowerPoster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
Another statistician who only uses the window of sample data that fits his opinion - great. You should go read the "Devils should sit Marty thread from last year", it was a wonderful example of getting caught up in the what have you done lately game.
Wow this is all sorts of wrong. I never attempted to misrepresent a small sample as some sort of definition of Salvador's career. I tried to be as objective as I can be by utilizing various different statistics that cover for bias (TOI/Matchup/Zone Play). I then specifically noted that I was only referring to this season. Your accusation that my post is an example of getting "caught up in the what have you done lately game" is completely accurate. My goal was to discuss the value of the 8 men to the Devils thus far this season. I didn't pretend to do anything else.

Quote:
30 games vs 245 previous games where he repeatedly saved goal after goal on the rebound or back door pass by blocking out the attacker, and clearing out a puck on it's way in. It was his hallmark last year in case you weren't watching this team consistently until they had a cup run.
You're incredible. I have no idea why you've been antagonistic from the beginning. People are allowed to disagree. People are allowed to look at the Devils and determine that something that YOU think is a strength is over-blown by a narrative and is actually a weakness of late. To call me dishonest (which you've done 3 times now) and a front-runner (which is weak) is enough to make me walk away from this discussion and leave you reflecting on how immature you sincerely have been the last two pages. But I won't do that. I'll take the time to address your concerns.

Quote:
Salvador has had shaky games this season for sure, as has the entire defense team the last 5-6 weeks. Your description of him being infamously weak in the crease is a mischaracterization no matter how many stats you want to pile up and he is one of the only remaining D men we have since the departure of White that will move someone in the paint. "Sal's a Warrior" didn't just happen by accident.
Where did I state that he has been "infamously weak in the crease?" Do you seriously derive that from "Salvador has been playing poorly in the slot/crease and he wouldn't have helped us against the Hurricanes?" If so, that's quite the logical leap. I recognize Salvador's history but he is a lot slower than he was even last season. Is it the short season? Injuries? I have no idea. But he's not the same player. Will he stand in front of the Net and block shots? Yes. But the advanced metrics support his inability to control the puck. That's indisputable. It's right there in front of you. This season he has played poorly.

Quote:
Pick apart his value all you like, debate the honesty of the organization and medical staff, but you misrepresented his style of play and described his strength as a weakness. There's a reason he gets the hardest matchups and plays the PK. You only have to look to last season's team leading +18 with over 100 hits and blocks both. He gets hard duty and doesn't have the luxury of offensive stats to cover up a bad game like some D.
You act like blocking shots in front of the goal is the only factor in play when defending the slot/crease. There's a reason his relative CORSI is the worst on the team. He has been bad this season. That's all I said.

He may be a warrior, but that doesn't inherently mean he's good in the slot/crease. I appreciate what he does but he's been playing poorly so far this season.

That is all I said. And I argued that he was possibly BENCHED, not solely because of injury, but because of his poor play as well because his WARRIOR reputation has made it so he doesn't miss games because of minor injuries that allow him to finish games and start future games.

I have no idea why you're attacking me. I'm an adult. We can talk like adults and disagree like adults. Relax.

ThePSEGPowerPoster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 01:03 PM
  #495
Bleedred
Foligno sucks
 
Bleedred's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: shouldafiredfoligno
Country: United States
Posts: 39,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMarce View Post
Tom Gulitti
‏@TGfireandice
Henrik Tallinder revealed his sprained his ankle warming up off the ice before pre-game warm-ups on March 7.

Talllinder wouldn't confirm that he sprained his ankle during pre-game soccer with teammates.

Why the facepalm?

Bleedred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 01:10 PM
  #496
Emperoreddy
Moderator
King of Pirates
 
Emperoreddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Jersey, Exit 16E
Country: United States
Posts: 21,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
Why the facepalm?
Because he hurt himself playing soccer off the ice.

Emperoreddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 01:19 PM
  #497
Bleedred
Foligno sucks
 
Bleedred's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: shouldafiredfoligno
Country: United States
Posts: 39,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperoreddy View Post
Because he hurt himself playing soccer off the ice.
Oh okay haha.

Bleedred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 01:23 PM
  #498
VaxjoDevil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Princeton, NJ
Country: Sweden
Posts: 8,177
vCash: 500
Probably landed bad on the foot. Tallinder just can't catch a break.

VaxjoDevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 01:46 PM
  #499
**** Farise
Registered User
 
**** Farise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePSEGPowerPoster View Post
Decided to see if my opinion of Salvador is unfounded.

For starters, let's take a loot at the quality of competition the D-men have faced on the ice. I'm using +/- QoC (Quality of Competition), which is a relative statistic that utilizes CORSI in determining who the coaches trust against the top offensive players on other teams.

Devils Team Leaders: (1) Bryce Salvador 0.057, (2) Mark Fayne 0.040, (3) Adam Larsson -0.002, (4) Andy Greene -0.017, (5) Marek Zidlicky -0.057, (6) Henrik Tallinder -0.072, (7) Peter Harrold -0.074, (8) Anton Volchenkov -0.105

Now, Relative Corsi is what we can use next to determine which side controls play. This is weighed appropriately based on TOI so it does a good job of controlling the skewing of samples.

Devils Team Leaders: (1) Henrik Tallinder 18.8 (2) Marek Zidlicky (3) 7.5 Mark Fayne 6.7 (4) Anton Volchenkov (5) 5.7 Peter Harrold -5.6 (6)Andy Greene -7.9 (7) Adam Larsson -8.2 (8) Bryce Salvador -9.3

Corsi rewards Tallinder as the defender that controls possesion best on the team (he would be top 5 in the league if he qualified). Relative to Competition faced, Fayne is the best defender on the team, with Salvador putting up an abysmal -9.3 due to his inability to keep up with faster forwards.

Now let's take a look at one more variable that's important to consider on the Devils. OFF ZONE START % demonstrates how often a D man starts in his own zone.

(1) Marek Zidlicky 59.1% (2) Peter Harrold 56% (3) Henrik Tallinder 55% (4) Anton Volchenkov 52% (5) Adam Larsson 49% (6) Mark Fayne 46% (7) Andy Greene 44.8% (8) Bryce Salvador 44.5%

Not astonishing that Zids and Harrold are tops here. Not astonishing that Greene and Salvy are last because of their offensive problems. However, this demonstrates that maybe we're a little hard on Salvy given how he spends 56% of the game in the defensive zone.
A high offensive zone start percentage isn't really a good thing for a defenseman. Yea, it can indicate who a coach wants out their when they're trying to get on the board...but it also shows who a coach trusts least in their defensive zone. For examples - Chara 44.9% offensive zone percentage. Shea Weber 41.2%. Offensive wizard Adam McQuaid has a 53.5%

As for the rest of the stats, this is why I can't stand when people follow stats religiously. Anything that says Tallinder has been the best defenseman on the Devils is ****ed beyond belief. It's impossible to say for certain without going back and reviewing all the games, but I'd say Tallinders high corsi is a combination of playing weak competition that gets pinned into their defensive zone against our 3rd/4th lines.

Greene, Salvador, and Larsson tend to get the toughest match ups. And are our 3 worst in relative CORSI.

Relative Corsi - on ice player CORSI mins off ice player CORSI.

So you're saying the Devils have a positive shot differential when the other team's best players aren't on the ice...and they have a negative shot differential when the other teams best players are on the ice? Noooo way!

**** Farise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2013, 01:48 PM
  #500
The Green Unit
Registered User
 
The Green Unit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Yugoslavia
Posts: 4,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
Another statistician who only uses the window of sample data that fits his opinion - great. You should go read the "Devils should sit Marty thread from last year", it was a wonderful example of getting caught up in the what have you done lately game.

30 games vs 245 previous games where he repeatedly saved goal after goal on the rebound or back door pass by blocking out the attacker, and clearing out a puck on it's way in. It was his hallmark last year in case you weren't watching this team consistently until they had a cup run.

Salvador has had shaky games this season for sure, as has the entire defense team the last 5-6 weeks. Your description of him being infamously weak in the crease is a mischaracterization no matter how many stats you want to pile up and he is one of the only remaining D men we have since the departure of White that will move someone in the paint. "Sal's a Warrior" didn't just happen by accident. Pick apart his value all you like, debate the honesty of the organization and medical staff, but you misrepresented his style of play and described his strength as a weakness. There's a reason he gets the hardest matchups and plays the PK. You only have to look to last season's team leading +18 with over 100 hits and blocks both. He gets hard duty and doesn't have the luxury of offensive stats to cover up a bad game like some D.
I love how you ended your post taking a run at Zids.

The Green Unit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:42 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.