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DW in panic mode; Clowe Available (Murray and Handzus Gone)

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Old
03-18-2013, 04:44 PM
  #126
Juxtaposer
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Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
Don't really mean to intrude, but i'm wondering why the Sharks are struggling right now with the likes of Marleau, Thornton, Couture, Pavelski up front and a very solid backend. I mean a backend with Boyle, Burns, Stuart, Vlasic, Demers, Irwin should be top 5 in the league IMO.

Besides forward depth, what's the problem? Chemistry? Lack of heart? Key players struggling? With all this talent it's just boggling why the Sharks have struggled in recent years.
1. No forward depth.
2. Havlat and Clowe are constantly out or playing injured so they suck when they're in.
3. Douglas Murray continues to play, usually pairing with another defensive D so there is absolutely no offense coming from whichever group of forwards is stuck with them.
4. Low even strength on-ice shooting percentage for the team. 6.3%, which is by far the worst in the league. Should start to bound back up to aroun 7.5%
5. The system is ultra conservative. It advocates preventing goals over scoring goals, which is a huge mistake.
6. Pavelski has been a bit of a disappointment this season compared to how good he's been the past two. Thornton, Marleau, Couture, and (lol) Burns are the only forwards who can score.
7. Have I mentioned we have absolutely no forward depth? Considering the Clowe/Havlat injures, Tommy Wingels is our 5th best forward. Yes, Tommy Wingels.
8. The coaches have no idea how to best utilize the personnel they have.

A defensie corps that looked like:

Irwin-Boyle
Stuart-Burns
Vlasic-Demers
Braun

would be one of the best in the league. Unfortunately, Demers is glued to the press box because he's pissed someone high up (player, coach, whatever) off. Larry Robinson is in love with Douglas Murray, who is the single worst defenseman playing in the NHL right now and refuses to sit him. On top of that, he forces Stuart to play with one of Vlasic or Murray, which is a huge mistake because none of those three have significant puck skills.

TL;DR, basically this season's failure is injury, bad luck, coaching, the system, bad lineup decisions, and disappointing seasons from a couple of players.

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03-18-2013, 04:45 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
You will get very mixed answers on this. One group of SJ fans blames the players for being too old, slow and not a high enough compete level. The other half will say its our coach not getting the players to play faster, and harder.

I think its truely is up in the air who is right here, and it quite possibly is both those things which is why its so easy to argue either side of that debate.

There is no doubt something is wrong though, this team IS too talented to be playing this way, so whether its horrible chemistry or bad coaching, something needs a fixin.
Yup nailed it. I tend to be like 65% coach sucks and 35% players not doing their jobs. Fix the coach, then see what you are left with, then make player changes. Kind of getting a little late in the game now though.

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Old
03-18-2013, 04:53 PM
  #128
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Yup nailed it. I tend to be like 65% coach sucks and 35% players not doing their jobs. Fix the coach, then see what you are left with, then make player changes. Kind of getting a little late in the game now though.
Yeah Im of the opinion that at this point the fastest and easiest way to get a temperature of where this team really is, would be to fire the coach.

If the team looks the same then you know some, or a lot of the players are the problem and its time to really shake that up. If things spike in a good direction then you know its probably still a good idea to shed some dead weight, and add some new pieces, while the new coach is still implementing his scheme, and the players are not set on who they have chemistry with. Hopefully with a couple new faces and a new coach, you could have all those peices culminate around playoff time and maybe make a decent push.

All of this is simply conjecture though, as its hard to tell exactly what will make this team click. It just seems that a new coach would be the easiest way to get a feeling on what this team is really about at this point.

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Old
03-18-2013, 04:59 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
People I would blame for the Sharks sucking before Marleau or Thornton:

-Clowe
-Murray
-McLellan
-Handzus
-DW
-Robinson
-Pavelski
-McLellan
-Havlat
-Vlasic
-McLellan
-DW
You left out Tim Burke

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Old
03-18-2013, 05:01 PM
  #130
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You left out Tim Burke
and JFJ.

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Old
03-18-2013, 05:28 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
You left out Tim Burke
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Originally Posted by sjshark91 View Post
and JFJ.
I could add them, and Sommer.

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03-18-2013, 05:29 PM
  #132
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You left out Tim Burke
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Originally Posted by sjshark91 View Post
and JFJ.

and Sommer.

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Old
03-18-2013, 07:00 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post

and Sommer.
Blame the NHL!

How DARE they reward the worst teams with the high draft picks! If the Sharks had those high picks, they'd be able to draft tons of good players that Sommer would actually be able to mold.

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Old
03-18-2013, 08:21 PM
  #134
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Yup nailed it. I tend to be like 65% coach sucks and 35% players not doing their jobs. Fix the coach, then see what you are left with, then make player changes. Kind of getting a little late in the game now though.
And I see it as the percentage being put on the player's heads is because they have given up on the system and don't care to a certain extent. Hard to play 100% all the time when you don't believe in the system. We see the same thing with different players that come here over the last five years, if cycling the players through results in the same outcome then you've gotta start setting the blame solely on the coaching.

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03-19-2013, 10:30 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
4. Low even strength on-ice shooting percentage for the team. 6.3%, which is by far the worst in the league. Should start to bound back up to aroun 7.5%
At what point does shooting % become not random, but part of the system? Here's the Sharks shooting % the last few years:

2013: 30th (per your #'s, the rest from here not adjusted for only 5v5 http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/st...rcentage/2009/)
2012: 29th
2011: 27th
2010: 23rd
2009: 4th (McLellan Hired)

The outlier isn't this year, the outlier is from 4 years ago. This year (and last year, as some contended) are not just "bad luck" and "unlucky because of good PDO". It looks like McLellan's system does not generate a good quality to quantity ratio in shots and the shooting % has bottomed out in the league.

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03-19-2013, 10:37 AM
  #136
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I accounted for the Sharks generally regressing to a slightly lower shooting percentage. League-average is 8%. Sharks average is 7.5%. Regardless, 6.3% is way too low.

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03-19-2013, 11:36 AM
  #137
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Every name he's listed has been unanimously poor from a fan's perspective. The takeaway is that even an outside hockey source that is famous for being incompetent knows this, so why is the coaching staff still playing them? Clowe is understandable since we have no one else to step up, but that doesn't explain why he keeps getting big minutes including PP and top-line stints. Murray plays over Demers and Handzus over Galiardi, which makes no sense whatsoever from a performance standpoint.

The only reason that makes sense is to bolster their trade value, so that's probably it. Doesn't take an expert to figure out that struggling players will be tradebait.
The hell you talking about there? There isn't anything understandable for playing Clowe over anybody right now especially if he really is injured. Turnover after turnover, losing board battles, can't score, and isn't generating chances. Right now, he is Torrey Mitchell 2.0. I would rather have Galiardi, Kennedy, or anyone else really playing in his spot right now. It seriously cannot get any worse if we play someone else besides Clowe.

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Coach isn't the problem, we have seen it all before. The star players are background leaders.
This is more *********. TMac has lost the room. Its time for him to go.

Since we have Johnson and Robinson, we should bring Yawney back and have him finish this year and start looking for a new coach in the off season.

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:00 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
At what point does shooting % become not random, but part of the system? Here's the Sharks shooting % the last few years:

2013: 30th (per your #'s, the rest from here not adjusted for only 5v5 http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/st...rcentage/2009/)
2012: 29th
2011: 27th
2010: 23rd
2009: 4th (McLellan Hired)

The outlier isn't this year, the outlier is from 4 years ago. This year (and last year, as some contended) are not just "bad luck" and "unlucky because of good PDO". It looks like McLellan's system does not generate a good quality to quantity ratio in shots and the shooting % has bottomed out in the league.
And we said as such for those years with Tmac, putting 40 shots on net night after night with little to show for it and always complaining about how goalies alway step up their game against us...well no, it's Tmac's system.

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:01 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by RainbowDash View Post
The hell you talking about there? There isn't anything understandable for playing Clowe over anybody right now especially if he really is injured. Turnover after turnover, losing board battles, can't score, and isn't generating chances. Right now, he is Torrey Mitchell 2.0. I would rather have Galiardi, Kennedy, or anyone else really playing in his spot right now. It seriously cannot get any worse if we play someone else besides Clowe.
Clowe did fine on the bottom lines, or at the very least adequate. He benefits from facing weaker competition and can play a much simpler game without having the temptation of playing like Thornton-lite.

As bad as he has been, which is pretty bad, he's still leagues better than what we have in our bottom 6 for the most part.

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:22 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
1. No forward depth.
2. Havlat and Clowe are constantly out or playing injured so they suck when they're in.
3. Douglas Murray continues to play, usually pairing with another defensive D so there is absolutely no offense coming from whichever group of forwards is stuck with them.
4. Low even strength on-ice shooting percentage for the team. 6.3%, which is by far the worst in the league. Should start to bound back up to aroun 7.5%
5. The system is ultra conservative. It advocates preventing goals over scoring goals, which is a huge mistake.
6. Pavelski has been a bit of a disappointment this season compared to how good he's been the past two. Thornton, Marleau, Couture, and (lol) Burns are the only forwards who can score.
7. Have I mentioned we have absolutely no forward depth? Considering the Clowe/Havlat injures, Tommy Wingels is our 5th best forward. Yes, Tommy Wingels.
8. The coaches have no idea how to best utilize the personnel they have.

A defensie corps that looked like:

Irwin-Boyle
Stuart-Burns
Vlasic-Demers
Braun

would be one of the best in the league. Unfortunately, Demers is glued to the press box because he's pissed someone high up (player, coach, whatever) off. Larry Robinson is in love with Douglas Murray, who is the single worst defenseman playing in the NHL right now and refuses to sit him. On top of that, he forces Stuart to play with one of Vlasic or Murray, which is a huge mistake because none of those three have significant puck skills.

TL;DR, basically this season's failure is injury, bad luck, coaching, the system, bad lineup decisions, and disappointing seasons from a couple of players.
Good post. #5 just kills me. Any kind of passive system with this group is a mistake--too many mellow personalities. Can't find the post but Gene P. hit the nail on the head when he said that when the sharks are aggressive and moving their feet, they're much better. We need a system that inspires that kind of play (in every zone).

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Old
03-19-2013, 02:05 PM
  #141
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Blame the NHL!

How DARE they reward the worst teams with the high draft picks! If the Sharks had those high picks, they'd be able to draft tons of good players that Sommer would actually be able to mold.
They aren't converting drafted players (by draft position) to NHL players at a rate equal to teams who draft similar players. That falls between Burke and Sommer. For example, the Sharks had Kaspar, the Habs have MaxPac. The Sharks have excelled in the past with late rounders, but not the early guys who have a better chance of cracking the top 6 or top 4. That is effectively a talent drain in drafting/development, the same affliction that the Oilers have had. The Sharks are even falling off in their drafting of late rounders.

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Old
03-19-2013, 02:17 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I accounted for the Sharks generally regressing to a slightly lower shooting percentage. League-average is 8%. Sharks average is 7.5%. Regardless, 6.3% is way too low.
Look for the reasoning behind the numbers and look to the outliers. At one point, the Wings did very well while shooting at an incredibly low percentage for an entire season. It was their system. Their shot quantity advantage was huge.

I suspect that coaches modify the system in response to the results so that an ineffective system is made more effective when the results roll in.

What I have seen this year is the Sharks not playing a game that results in a quantity advantage and using a system which tends to a low percentage. Your high percentage shots are in transition and on PP of which the Sharks have almost nil. Utilizing a point shot strategy on PP is the lowest percentage strategy although it may result in the highest quantity of shots.

I loved the comment from last night's game against Anaheim where McLellan said that the team couldn't play in a track meet and had to keep checking close. Well coach, what do you do when you can't check close enough and you can't play in the track meet? What happens with all those vets when they can't be perfect enough in checking? What answer do you have other than lose? I would hope that a strategy initiative is on the horizon because he effectively told the team that when the other guys score 3, the team might as well give up. And I don't want Robinson as a replacement because he essentially backs the same notions.

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03-19-2013, 02:22 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Look for the reasoning behind the numbers and look to the outliers. At one point, the Wings did very well while shooting at an incredibly low percentage for an entire season. It was their system. Their shot quantity advantage was huge.

I suspect that coaches modify the system in response to the results so that an ineffective system is made more effective when the results roll in.

What I have seen this year is the Sharks not playing a game that results in a quantity advantage and using a system which tends to a low percentage. Your high percentage shots are in transition and on PP of which the Sharks have almost nil. Utilizing a point shot strategy on PP is the lowest percentage strategy although it may result in the highest quantity of shots.

I loved the comment from last night's game against Anaheim where McLellan said that the team couldn't play in a track meet and had to keep checking close. Well coach, what do you do when you can't check close enough and you can't play in the track meet? What happens with all those vets when they can't be perfect enough in checking? What answer do you have other than lose? I would hope that a strategy initiative is on the horizon because he effectively told the team that when the other guys score 3, the team might as well give up. And I don't want Robinson as a replacement because he essentially backs the same notions.
Yeah that was pretty telling that TMac would say something like that. Not a good sign, i'm sure the players have checked out already anyway.

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Old
03-19-2013, 02:42 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Look for the reasoning behind the numbers and look to the outliers. At one point, the Wings did very well while shooting at an incredibly low percentage for an entire season. It was their system. Their shot quantity advantage was huge.

I suspect that coaches modify the system in response to the results so that an ineffective system is made more effective when the results roll in.

What I have seen this year is the Sharks not playing a game that results in a quantity advantage and using a system which tends to a low percentage. Your high percentage shots are in transition and on PP of which the Sharks have almost nil. Utilizing a point shot strategy on PP is the lowest percentage strategy although it may result in the highest quantity of shots.

I loved the comment from last night's game against Anaheim where McLellan said that the team couldn't play in a track meet and had to keep checking close. Well coach, what do you do when you can't check close enough and you can't play in the track meet? What happens with all those vets when they can't be perfect enough in checking? What answer do you have other than lose? I would hope that a strategy initiative is on the horizon because he effectively told the team that when the other guys score 3, the team might as well give up. And I don't want Robinson as a replacement because he essentially backs the same notions.
Sorry, for not being more clear, I was referring purely to even strength shooting percentage.

I personally believe that there is a little bit of talent-based variance in team shooting percentage based on system. But not to the extreme we're seeing for this team right now.

As for McLellan... man, he's lost it. And If Robinson has the man-crush on Murray he seems to have, I don't want him near the HC job, although it would probably guarantee us a lottery pick.

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03-19-2013, 02:44 PM
  #145
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Sorry, for not being more clear, I was referring purely to even strength shooting percentage.

I personally believe that there is a little bit of talent-based variance in team shooting percentage based on system. But not to the extreme we're seeing for this team right now.

As for McLellan... man, he's lost it. And If Robinson has the man-crush on Murray he seems to have, I don't want him near the HC job, although it would probably guarantee us a lottery pick.
I still have hope that is just DW keeping what value Murray still has intact. Still though, he's not a long term solution either way.

I don't see any 'pro' coaches available right now I would have interest in. We'll probably need to look at up and coming minor league coaches who can create a new identity for the Sharks, not copy someone else's. That or wait for someone to get fired...

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03-19-2013, 02:47 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Sorry, for not being more clear, I was referring purely to even strength shooting percentage.

I personally believe that there is a little bit of talent-based variance in team shooting percentage based on system. But not to the extreme we're seeing for this team right now.

As for McLellan... man, he's lost it. And If Robinson has the man-crush on Murray he seems to have, I don't want him near the HC job, although it would probably guarantee us a lottery pick.
He lost it when he started throwing the wackiest line ups ever on the ice. Scratching Demers and dressing Murray because he "battles" as if no one else does. Hes a coach who has run out of answers and solutions. 20 more games to go. Sharks will finish 12th or 13th.

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03-19-2013, 02:48 PM
  #147
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I still have hope that is just DW keeping what value Murray still has intact. Still though, he's not a long term solution either way.
I'm hoping so too since a constantly scratched player should have really low value come the TDL.
But then again, the coaches played White instead of Demers last year, and Ian White in Detroit is always scratched even though they're thinking of trading him.

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03-19-2013, 02:49 PM
  #148
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I still have hope that is just DW keeping what value Murray still has intact. Still though, he's not a long term solution either way.

I don't see any 'pro' coaches available right now I would have interest in. We'll probably need to look at up and coming minor league coaches who can create a new identity for the Sharks, not copy someone else's. That or wait for someone to get fired...
Dallas Eakins and Jon Cooper are both young coaches who are the hot prospects. I also like Willie Desjardins too..hes done a lot for the youngsters in Dallas's system.

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03-19-2013, 02:51 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Sorry, for not being more clear, I was referring purely to even strength shooting percentage.

I personally believe that there is a little bit of talent-based variance in team shooting percentage based on system. But not to the extreme we're seeing for this team right now.

As for McLellan... man, he's lost it. And If Robinson has the man-crush on Murray he seems to have, I don't want him near the HC job, although it would probably guarantee us a lottery pick.
Thanks for the clarification. The point about transition offense applies. I went over the numbers some time ago and transition teams tended to higher percentages. I do agree on talent, but it is less than you would expect.

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03-19-2013, 02:59 PM
  #150
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Thanks for the clarification. The point about transition offense applies. I went over the numbers some time ago and transition teams tended to higher percentages. I do agree on talent, but it is less than you would expect.
No, I definitely agree on transition. I think the studies say that transition shots lead to twice as many goals as cycle shots.

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