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Canucks at the Trade Deadline

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:53 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
He's a 2nd line C outside of an optimal situation, which will be paid like one.

Lol contradictions everywhere!
If he's paid like a 2nd line centre than $5mil is a reasonable expectation. Especially in a desirable market.

Would you rather have Derek Roy at $5mil or David Booth at $4.2mil?

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03-19-2013, 12:56 PM
  #152
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I'd like to acquire another faceoff expert too. Although faceoffs are not vital all the time to a team's success (Pittsburgh was pretty bad when they made the finals two years in a row), there is some correlation to team success.

The bottom 10 teams in faceoff win percentage the last 5 years have made the playoffs 34% of the time. I think we're at 27th place now after being #1 two years ago. Kesler and Malhotra's absences have killed us there.

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03-19-2013, 12:57 PM
  #153
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If we keep losing we might as well trade Raymond, Higgins, Lappy for picks

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03-19-2013, 12:58 PM
  #154
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I'm a bit wary given his last season and a half. He might be more of a good 50-60 point 2nd line player at this point.
Which is going to help the Canucks. I keep seeing posts bashing Roy and is 3 goals, but they don't mention how he has 13 assists. He's also +7 and the rest of of the top end players on Dallas are minus players.

Roy would help this team immensly. It comes down to how much would the Canucks have to give up to get him and if he is a pure rental or is it possible to get him signed after this season.

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03-19-2013, 01:00 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Just getting a feel for the Backup goalie vs skater argument. So that's arsmaster and Y2K to cover both angles. You got what again?... The same tired diatribe?
Yup, you've got all the angles covered alright. Don't take into account the countless other posters that want the goalie situation resolved. They don't fit your agenda.

I can't believe anyone could watch this team and think it's more crucial to have an elite backup than to address the weakness at centre ice. Thankfully, Gillis doesn't think that way and has been feverishly trying to bring in a quality centreman. No-brainer.

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03-19-2013, 01:04 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Yup, you've got all the angles covered alright. Don't take into account the countless other posters that want the goalie situation resolved. They don't fit your agenda.

I can't believe anyone could watch this team and think it's more crucial to have an elite backup than to address the weakness at centre ice. Thankfully, Gillis doesn't think that way and has been feverishly trying to bring in a quality centreman. No-brainer.
I think Y2k and arsmaster have both expressed an interest in having the goalie situation resolved. No?

Hmmm Gillis kept an elite backup instead of getting a skater, remember? History has already proven you false.

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03-19-2013, 01:07 PM
  #157
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Which is going to help the Canucks. I keep seeing posts bashing Roy and is 3 goals, but they don't mention how he has 13 assists. He's also +7 and the rest of of the top end players on Dallas are minus players.

Roy would help this team immensly. It comes down to how much would the Canucks have to give up to get him and if he is a pure rental or is it possible to get him signed after this season.
Or that he's shooting an unsustainably low 5.8%, which is below half his career average. Had he shot his career average he would have 6 goals and 19 points - which equates to a 70 point pace, yet again. That would leave him at or near that 70 point pace for 6 of the last 7 years.

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03-19-2013, 01:08 PM
  #158
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If we keep losing we might as well trade Raymond, Higgins, Lappy for picks
Honestly, I would entertain the idea of trading Raymond. He's playing well this year, will likely get more on the market than he will from the Canucks, and he may well wish to test the waters given that he was one of the guys taken to cut-down arbitration.

Ideally, we'd get something that would help this current team so we can contend in our cup window. Failing that, some futures (picks/prospects) would be nice.

Higgins and Lapierre, on the other hand, I can see being retained as depth. Neither should command an astronomical price, and both are useful bottom-six players.

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03-19-2013, 01:12 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I think Y2k and arsmaster have both expressed an interest in having the goalie situation resolved. No?

Hmmm Gillis kept an elite backup instead of getting a skater, remember? History has already proven you false.
I said Gillis should move a goalie, not that he would. I said if he failed to do so that Booth and the 2nd line wouldn't provide this team with secondary scoring and thus wouldn't go anywhere in the playoffs. History couldn't have proven me more right, unfortunately.

And Gillis was apparently looking at offers for Luongo at the deadline. He just didn't find a deal that made sense.

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03-19-2013, 01:17 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Roy has averaged close to 70 points a year over the last 5 years and is on pace for 60 points this season and isn't a 1st line centre, yet David Booth has produced roughly half the offense over the last 5 years and on pace for 7 points this season and he's a 'valuable member of this team and a bonafide 2nd line talent'!

You've lost the plot.
Roy scored 44 points last season.

That's all I need to know about him, if we have questions about Kesler, why acquire a guy as a rental that poses the same consistency issue moving forward.

For $5million, we have to make it count.

I'm over the window crap, the real window shut June 15, 2011. Now it's time to work towards a new window. Roy solves the same problems Booth does ie. not many.

He's not the type of player you go 'all-in' on. He's a complimentary piece. This would be the epitome of a band aid solution, and reeks of Bryan Smolinski.

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03-19-2013, 01:18 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I said Gillis should move a goalie, not that he would. I said if he failed to do so that Booth and the 2nd line wouldn't provide this team with secondary scoring and thus wouldn't go anywhere in the playoffs. History couldn't have proven me more right, unfortunately.

And Gillis was apparently looking at offers for Luongo at the deadline. He just didn't find a deal that made sense.
Not that I would accuse you of "lying"... But I remember things a bit differently. So does Y2K in fact because I've seen him call you out for the same here. But whatever.

On the Roy issue: If you want to give up a 1st + for him, that's your call, I wouldn't. Agree to disagree. On to the next.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 03-19-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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Old
03-19-2013, 01:21 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
Which is going to help the Canucks. I keep seeing posts bashing Roy and is 3 goals, but they don't mention how he has 13 assists. He's also +7 and the rest of of the top end players on Dallas are minus players.

Roy would help this team immensly. It comes down to how much would the Canucks have to give up to get him and if he is a pure rental or is it possible to get him signed after this season.
We're not struggling to put up assists, we're struggling to score.

Assists don't win you games.

It's why I'll always consider a goal scorer to be a better player than a playmaker.

We don't need another top 6 center who can't put up 20 in a season (nice to see Hanky scoring this year though...).

You can put the puck on the players stick, but if it doesn't go in the net it doesn't matter.

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03-19-2013, 01:24 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Roy scored 44 points last season.

That's all I need to know about him, if we have questions about Kesler, why acquire a guy as a rental that poses the same consistency issue moving forward.

For $5million, we have to make it count.

I'm over the window crap, the real window shut June 15, 2011. Now it's time to work towards a new window. Roy solves the same problems Booth does ie. not many.

He's not the type of player you go 'all-in' on. He's a complimentary piece. This would be the epitome of a band aid solution, and reeks of Bryan Smolinski.
I don't think DTS will change his opinion... He thinks a skater is more valuable quality elsewhere. Such a as a back up goalie and/or draft picks. He's about the immediate and likely unsustainable help to prop up a team that hasn't shown it's worth propping up to this point.

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03-19-2013, 01:27 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Roy scored 44 points last season.

That's all I need to know about him, if we have questions about Kesler, why acquire a guy as a rental that poses the same consistency issue moving forward.

For $5million, we have to make it count.

I'm over the window crap, the real window shut June 15, 2011. Now it's time to work towards a new window. Roy solves the same problems Booth does ie. not many.

He's not the type of player you go 'all-in' on. He's a complimentary piece. This would be the epitome of a band aid solution, and reeks of Bryan Smolinski.
Ah yes. The ignoring evidence that goes against what you think approach. Well played.

Getzlaf had a terrible year last year. Is he suddenly a scrub that will never get close to PPG again? Oh wait...

Having 1 bad year out of 6 is not a sign of inconsistency if anything it's a sign of consistency.

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03-19-2013, 01:30 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I don't think DTS will change his opinion... He thinks a skater is more valuable quality elsewhere. Such a as a back up goalie and/or draft picks. He's about the immediate and likely unsustainable help to prop up a team that hasn't shown it's worth propping up to this point.
We're already riding goaltending and a 1st line though, right?

Why not strip it down to the core: goalie, top 4 defense, Sedin line, Kesler, Hansen and let the young guys go at it.

Worst case is a better pick, best case is we ride youth and decent core, on top of goaltending to the playoffs and hope for the best.

This team needs a makeover, Derek Roy is lipstick, we're the pig....

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03-19-2013, 01:31 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Roy scored 44 points last season.

That's all I need to know about him, if we have questions about Kesler, why acquire a guy as a rental that poses the same consistency issue moving forward.

For $5million, we have to make it count.

I'm over the window crap, the real window shut June 15, 2011. Now it's time to work towards a new window. Roy solves the same problems Booth does ie. not many.

He's not the type of player you go 'all-in' on. He's a complimentary piece. This would be the epitome of a band aid solution, and reeks of Bryan Smolinski.
Roy was also close to a PPG player for the 4 previous seasons. Consistent offensive production is what the guy is all about. He's probably a top 20 point producer league wide over the last 5-7 years...

I don't see how a bonafide 1st line centre that is usually good for 60-80 points compares to a Bryan Smolinski? This is the anti-Smolinski route...

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03-19-2013, 01:33 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post

I can't believe anyone could watch this team and think it's more crucial to have an elite backup than to address the weakness at centre ice. Thankfully, Gillis doesn't think that way and has been feverishly trying to bring in a quality centreman. No-brainer.

Canucks definitely need to move a goaltender to get a center or a winger who can fill in until Kesler is back. I realize Luongo may not bring the return that MG had expected, but at some point he needs to find the best available option and pull the trigger.

Vancouver isn't so bad that they should blow it up (still in a playoff spot!), but they need to bring in some depth and they have an asset wasting on the bench that they can afford to give up.

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03-19-2013, 01:33 PM
  #168
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Ah yes. The ignoring evidence that goes against what you think approach. Well played.

Getzlaf had a terrible year last year. Is he suddenly a scrub that will never get close to PPG again? Oh wait...

Having 1 bad year out of 6 is not a sign of inconsistency if anything it's a sign of consistency.
If you want to compare Roy and Getzlaf go ahead.

There's a reason why Buffalo let Roy walk, and why Anaheim didn't let Getzlaf.

Roy is the epitome of a buy low candidate, just like Booth was. I don't know how hard it is to understand, but this team can't go after a rental as a buy low guy. Best case he plays well enough to price you out of his market.

Makes literally NO sense to me.

I don't think it makes him a scrub either. I think it makes him a player past his prime, looking for one final shot at a big pay day. we need to accumulate good players closer to 25, not 30....

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03-19-2013, 01:34 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
We're not struggling to put up assists, we're struggling to score.

Assists don't win you games.

It's why I'll always consider a goal scorer to be a better player than a playmaker.

We don't need another top 6 center who can't put up 20 in a season (nice to see Hanky scoring this year though...).

You can put the puck on the players stick, but if it doesn't go in the net it doesn't matter.
Problem is that this team is full of shooters and these shooters are shooting from the outside for the most part. The 2nd/3rd lines need someone to pass to these shooters when they are in better shooting positions.

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03-19-2013, 01:39 PM
  #170
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We're already riding goaltending and a 1st line though, right?

Why not strip it down to the core: goalie, top 4 defense, Sedin line, Kesler, Hansen and let the young guys go at it.

Worst case is a better pick, best case is we ride youth and decent core, on top of goaltending to the playoffs and hope for the best.

This team needs a makeover, Derek Roy is lipstick, we're the pig....

The issue is: What is this team? Is it a contender? Win percentage sans injuries and possession metrics say yes. However, conversion rate, poor GA/differential, and the eye test say no. Really, this team could go either way right now. So do you bring in help at the expense of the future to push it ahead or do you sell hard and plan ahead, of do you go with a middling strategy?

Not one option is altogether wrong. However, I find the push strategy pretty difficult to take given what this team has shown us to date. The big positive are the possession metrics, but are they enough? This team just looks listless. Not something you want to invest in or prop up.

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03-19-2013, 01:42 PM
  #171
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Well the next week will be an indicator whether we are sellers or buyers at the deadline, either way though this is NOT an all-in year...too many problems to address and holes to fill in a seller's market. Next year's draft is much too deep to p*ss away draft picks.

Our needs imo are a #3(can play 2 for stretches) Center (preferably LH like Manny and is competent at faceoffs), a RH PP specialist, and a top 6 winger. Let's just assume the top 6 winger is not going to happen until the off-season. That leaves the Center, I hear about Derek Roy but considering the market he will probably go for a 1st rounder and so I don't want Gillis to trade for him.

My idea is a prospect for Adrian Aucoin, he will help the PP and give some depth without breaking the bank. Perhaps a Connauton/Price and a 3rd/4th for? Aucoin has a NTC but would probably waive to come back to Vancouver.

We've been spoiled under GMMG's tenure, but I don't think there is a deal to be made right now for a team that looks ordinary, i'd rather they re-tool and go all-in with the right mix and think "big picture". I wouldn't be surprised if Gillis doesn't do anything at all except maybe get a pick or two or only pick up one depth player.

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03-19-2013, 01:43 PM
  #172
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He's about the immediate and likely unsustainable help to prop up a team that hasn't shown it's worth propping up to this point.
Derek Roy is the exact same age as Marcel Goc...

I would just prefer to see the team use assets to acquire players that are good enough to make a difference between winning and losing than just dumping young assets for pieces that won't make that difference. You can move a 2nd rd pick plus in a deep draft for a band-aid in Goc, or you can move more value for a player that could put you over the top. Do you go with the Pahlsson or the Carter route?

I also disagree that this team isn't good enough to compete. They're just not good enough with the current crop of centremen. Add Kesler and Roy and this team looks dramatically different up front, not to mention Gillis would still have a goalie at his disposal to further tweak the lineup if he see's fit.

Sticking with 2 goalies and moving lesser asets for lesser talents is hedging your bets. It's the safe route. Unfortunately, it won't put this team in a strong position to win a cup. Considering the age of the core, that's the wrong way to go. I would rather see Gillis acquire an impact player, load up to win during the Sedins tenure, then strip it all down to nothing if the need arises in 3-4 years. Prolonged mediocrity is not something to strive for.

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03-19-2013, 01:47 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Derek Roy is the exact same age as Marcel Goc...

I would just prefer to see the team use assets to acquire players that are good enough to make a difference between winning and losing than just dumping young assets for pieces that won't make that difference. You can move a 2nd rd pick plus in a deep draft for a band-aid in Goc, or you can move more value for a player that could put you over the top. Do you go with the Pahlsson or the Carter route?

I also disagree that this team isn't good enough to compete. They're just not good enough with the current crop of centremen. Add Kesler and Roy and this team looks dramatically different up front, not to mention Gillis would still have a goalie at his disposal to further tweak the lineup if he see's fit.

Sticking with 2 goalies and moving lesser assets for lesser talents is hedging your bets. It's the safe route. Unfortunately, it won't put this team in a strong position to win a cup. Considering the age of the core, that's the wrong way to go. I would rather see Gillis acquire an impact player, load up to win during the Sedins tenure, then strip it all down to nothing if the need arises in 3-4 years. Prolonged mediocrity is not something to strive for.
I would be happy to go this route but at what cost? I just don't know if a deal is there, obviously the only trade chip the Canucks have is a goalie. So many teams in the misx as sellers and with the cap going down next year the prices will be steep. Is there a bidding war for a goalie right now? I hope so but i'm not feeling it.

As for dumping Higgins and Lapierre for picks, i'm not so sure we should do that. Who will replace them in the bottom 6? Sweatt? Schroeder on the 4th line? I think they can be resigned for cheap and should be retained as there are no guarantees in the UFA market.

LOL this leaves us with Ballard , Raymond and a pick....a current HFBoards favorite.


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03-19-2013, 01:56 PM
  #174
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I would be happy to go this route but at what cost? I just don't know if a deal is there, obviously the only trade chip the Canucks have is a goalie. So many teams in the misx as sellers and with the cap going down next year the prices will be steep. Is there a bidding war for a goalie right now? I hope so but i'm not feeling it.
The Canucks have 3 players that could draw interest at the deadline. Luongo, Ballard and Raymond. If roster players are at such a premium you would hope these guys could return some good picks/prospects.

Roy would probably cost a 1st and a decent prospect IMO. That's not something I would consider unless the plan was to re-sign him. IMO they would have a realistic chance at doing so. And the acquisition cost is more palatable if you can parlay some of our roster players into young assets to affset what is lost in the Roy deal.

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03-19-2013, 01:58 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Derek Roy is the exact same age as Marcel Goc...

I would just prefer to see the team use assets to acquire players that are good enough to make a difference between winning and losing than just dumping young assets for pieces that won't make that difference. You can move a 2nd rd pick plus in a deep draft for a band-aid in Goc, or you can move more value for a player that could put you over the top. Do you go with the Pahlsson or the Carter route?

I also disagree that this team isn't good enough to compete. They're just not good enough with the current crop of centremen. Add Kesler and Roy and this team looks dramatically different up front, not to mention Gillis would still have a goalie at his disposal to further tweak the lineup if he see's fit.

Sticking with 2 goalies and moving lesser asets for lesser talents is hedging your bets. It's the safe route. Unfortunately, it won't put this team in a strong position to win a cup. Considering the age of the core, that's the wrong way to go. I would rather see Gillis acquire an impact player, load up to win during the Sedins tenure, then strip it all down to nothing if the need arises in 3-4 years. Prolonged mediocrity is not something to strive for.

See, it still comes down to a "window", and I don't ascribe to that philosophy.

The team had scoring issues even with Kesler. It's deeper than centre ice. The team wide make up and style has kept depth scoring as low as it is. And I don't believe any one player changes it.

If Goc costs too much more than what Gillis paid in the past for Higgins/Lapierre, then he should move on from it. Basically, do not invest good future assets into this club. It hasn't shown what it is. Therefore, I think It would be a mistake to push it to be something it's not.

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