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Old
03-19-2013, 02:01 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
The Canucks have 3 players that could draw interest at the deadline. Luongo, Ballard and Raymond. If roster players are at such a premium you would hope these guys could return some good picks/prospects.

Roy would probably cost a 1st and a decent prospect IMO. That's not something I would consider unless the plan was to re-sign him. IMO they would have a realistic chance at doing so. And the acquisition cost is more palatable if you can parlay some of our roster players into young assets to affset what is lost in the Roy deal.
We're currently looking at a top ten pick, apparently the 2013 draft top ten are all considered no-brainer franchise type picks, it's that deep! i'm not wanting to give that up for Derek Roy.

Maybe Ballard for Aucoin?
Then Raymond for what?

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03-19-2013, 02:02 PM
  #177
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what kind of third line do we want? a fast third line that could score occasional goal or a physical hard hitting third that can effective against top line. As well as scoring goal when needed?

Raymond/Higgins/Hansen could be a effective third line but a center would probably make the line better....

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03-19-2013, 02:04 PM
  #178
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If you want to compare Roy and Getzlaf go ahead.

There's a reason why Buffalo let Roy walk, and why Anaheim didn't let Getzlaf.

Roy is the epitome of a buy low candidate, just like Booth was. I don't know how hard it is to understand, but this team can't go after a rental as a buy low guy. Best case he plays well enough to price you out of his market.

Makes literally NO sense to me.

I don't think it makes him a scrub either. I think it makes him a player past his prime, looking for one final shot at a big pay day. we need to accumulate good players closer to 25, not 30....
I was merely pointing out that one down season does not make a player inconsistent and terrible. As other posters pointed out with varying degrees of evidence. You choose to continue to say that he's past his prime and 'bad' while ignoring and dismissing the evidence brought forward to the contrary.

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03-19-2013, 02:08 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Basically, do not invest good future assets into this club. It hasn't shown what it is. Therefore, I think I would be a mistake to push it to be something it's not.
The team with Kesler has shown it can compete with anyone. It has only looked like an average team with putrid centre depth, following the losses of Kesler, Hodgson and Malhotra. One could safely assume that adding another strong centre and getting Kesler back will vault this team back to where they've been for a very long time. The high end talent is there, the depth up front is there(with Kesler and another good centre), the defense is there, as is the goaltending.

There is a lot of parity in the league. Teams like Chicago and Anaheim can go from average to elite overnight and clubs that were elite last year like New York, St. Louis and Vancouver can fade with a couple injuries or minor setbacks. All it takes is an injury to a Hossa or Getzlaf/Perry and the Canucks could compete with anyone in the West, if couldn't already once healthy themselves.

The problem with targeting lesser players is we'll be in the same position again next year. Goc will help mask the teams problems. I just don't think he alone will fix them. IMO Derek Roy is good enough to do so. He gives the team 3 1st line calibre centremen, something we've never had.

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03-19-2013, 02:11 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by westvandal View Post
We're currently looking at a top ten pick, apparently the 2013 draft top ten are all considered no-brainer franchise type picks, it's that deep! i'm not wanting to give that up for Derek Roy.

Maybe Ballard for Aucoin?
Then Raymond for what?
If we're looking at a top 10 pick at the deadline I wouldn't move it for Roy either. If it's in the 20 range then it's more reasonable.

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03-19-2013, 02:15 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
If we're looking at a top 10 pick at the deadline I wouldn't move it for Roy either. If it's in the 20 range then it's more reasonable.
Yes that's fair....only if we can resign him.

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03-19-2013, 02:16 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
The team with Kesler has shown it can compete with anyone. It has only looked like an average team with putrid centre depth, following the losses of Kesler, Hodgson and Malhotra. One could safely assume that adding another strong centre and getting Kesler back will vault this team back to where they've been for a very long time. The high end talent is there, the depth up front is there(with Kesler and another good centre), the defense is there, as is the goaltending.

There is a lot of parity in the league. Teams like Chicago and Anaheim can go from average to elite overnight and clubs that were elite last year like New York, St. Louis and Vancouver can fade with a couple injuries or minor setbacks. All it takes is an injury to a Hossa or Getzlaf/Perry and the Canucks could compete with anyone in the West, if couldn't already once healthy themselves.

The problem with targeting lesser players is we'll be in the same position again next year. Goc will help mask the teams problems. I just don't think he alone will fix them. IMO Derek Roy is good enough to do so. He gives the team 3 1st line calibre centremen, something we've never had.

Something we've never had doesn't equate to dominance. I don't think Roy changes the general malaise of this team. Even if I agree that the problems we are seeing now have been amplified by poor C depth.

I don't think we can safely assume anything, especially when this team still struggles to score with a healthy Kesler back in the line-up. That's the rub. The team wins games, and even looks good doing it with him back, but scoring is still an issue when this happens. It goes deeper than centre ice injuries/depth IMO.

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03-19-2013, 02:19 PM
  #183
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There's too much potential downside at this stage to consider giving up the 1st pick - we could end up picking 12th and having so many choices...that would be pulling a mini BB...

Especially for a soft rental..

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03-19-2013, 02:19 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
The team with Kesler has shown it can compete with anyone. It has only looked like an average team with putrid centre depth, following the losses of Kesler, Hodgson and Malhotra. One could safely assume that adding another strong centre and getting Kesler back will vault this team back to where they've been for a very long time. The high end talent is there, the depth up front is there(with Kesler and another good centre), the defense is there, as is the goaltending.

There is a lot of parity in the league. Teams like Chicago and Anaheim can go from average to elite overnight and clubs that were elite last year like New York, St. Louis and Vancouver can fade with a couple injuries or minor setbacks. All it takes is an injury to a Hossa or Getzlaf/Perry and the Canucks could compete with anyone in the West, if couldn't already once healthy themselves.

The problem with targeting lesser players is we'll be in the same position again next year. Goc will help mask the teams problems. I just don't think he alone will fix them. IMO Derek Roy is good enough to do so. He gives the team 3 1st line calibre centremen, something we've never had.
See I get this line of thinking, and can understand it. Partly because we saw the Canucks handle the Kings so easily 2 weeks ago.

The problem is we don't see that enough. I'm not sure all the ducks are in a row to go after a move like this.

Nor do I see Roy as the ideal player to acquire as a rental and hope to resign. I just don't see him as that player.

I still hold out some semblance of hope the Canucks get healthy and peak at the right time, because you're right, this team healthy, with good goaltending is still a very tough team to beat.

I just have a hard time giving up more of what already looks to be a bleak future, for a rental...even if he's a great rental...

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03-19-2013, 02:22 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
If we're looking at a top 10 pick at the deadline I wouldn't move it for Roy either. If it's in the 20 range then it's more reasonable.
Do we even know that at the TD? 4 straight losses and we go from 10th to 20th in a friggin' hurry. As it stands, I'm totally against the idea.

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Old
03-19-2013, 02:26 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I don't think we can safely assume anything, especially when this team still struggles to score with a healthy Kesler back in the line-up. That's the rub. The team wins games, and even looks good doing it with him back, but scoring is still an issue when this happens. It goes deeper than centre ice injuries/depth IMO.
But Kesler hasn't been healthy and in the lineup since '10-11. He had a 2 month stretch where he was healthy last year and played well but laboured through injury for the majority of the year. This season doesn't really count as he broke his foot the first game back and was coming off such an extended layoff.

Scoring has only been an isue when Kesler is playing hurt. Roy would help mitigate that as he can step into the 2nd line centre position and create offense. He would also help the 2nd PP unit.

I also don't think a lack of effort is what is causing this team to be mediocre. It's the fact they can't win faceoffs, get absolutely no offense from every one of their bottom 6 forwards, injuries and Kesler's absence kills the PP. Looking at the PP's effectiveness over the last 4 years it appears it's Kesler that makes it go. The 2nd unit was more proficient than the 1st unit when he was on it and the 1st unit went from average to elite when he get bumped onto it.

The injuries to Malhotra and Kesler are the root of the problem IMO. You can't lose that faceoff ability, PK work, strong defensive play up the middle and secondary scoring and not take a significant step back. The West is just too tight.

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03-19-2013, 02:30 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
See, it still comes down to a "window", and I don't ascribe to that philosophy.

The team had scoring issues even with Kesler. It's deeper than centre ice. The team wide make up and style has kept depth scoring as low as it is. And I don't believe any one player changes it.

If Goc costs too much more than what Gillis paid in the past for Higgins/Lapierre, then he should move on from it. Basically, do not invest good future assets into this club. It hasn't shown what it is. Therefore, I think It would be a mistake to push it to be something it's not.
How do you know the problems are deeper than center ice? I think they are exactly center ice. Kesler played 7 games and was not in top form. He still helped the pp of the team alot. Add Kesler and a solid centericeman and this team has the pieces to compete. I do not think you need to trade a first round pick to get that done but if you do so be it and trade our goalie for a pick to get it back. Like Drop the Sopel said with Raymond, and the Goalie we should be able to get a center. Hopefully with Ballard and our 2nd to 7th round picks we could get a r dman. That is not going all in by any stretch but it gives this year's team a chance. With the Sedins healthy a good goalie and good d men why would you let a obvious and fixable problem(center depth) stop you. We are not Calgary, we have the same core as the past 5 years, i do not think it has regressed in a large way. If it has lets find out by giving this team a chance. If with center ice improvements this team cannot compete, major changes should be made as it has shown it is not good enough anymore. We do not know that by watching 3 fringe NHl centericemen playing each night.

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Old
03-19-2013, 02:32 PM
  #188
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Alright so this is the Canucks right now

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Raymond-Ebbett-Hansen
Higgins-Lapierre-Weise
Sestito-Schroeder-Pinnizzotto

This is a disaster. First of all if AV is gonna work with this lineup he has to do this.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows (First line)
Raymond-Schroeder-Hansen (Great speedy line that puts up points)
Higgins-Lapierre-Weise (Lapierre is not bad in the faceoff)
Sestito-Ebbett-Pinnizzotto (Energy line)

Let Jensen adjust to the AHL then maybe call him up in April. All I have to say is wow this guy is amazing 4 goals in 6 games with the Wolves so far keep it up. It seems like he was not that great in Denmark but every time he played in the OHL and now AHL he has been doing good. His run in Sweden was not bad either.

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Old
03-19-2013, 02:34 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I just have a hard time giving up more of what already looks to be a bleak future, for a rental...even if he's a great rental...
I'm not a fan of rentals either. You only go after guys like Roy/Ribeiro/Weiss if you think you can retain them IMO.

We will have to agree to disagree on how good Roy is though. He's had 1 outlier, poor season and a whole bunch of 70+ point years in the past 7. I also believe small players have a longer shelf life and that Roy would likely be playing at a high level for another 5 years. I also like Roy's durability - he's been very healthy, save the '10-11 season where he only played 35 games. Durability is huge in the cap era IMO. Especially for the top end of the roster, where it's so difficult to replace injured players in-season.

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03-19-2013, 02:37 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I'm not a fan of rentals either. You only go after guys like Roy/Ribeiro/Weiss if you think you can retain them IMO.

We will have to agree to disagree on how good Roy is though. He's had 1 outlier, poor season and a whole bunch of 70+ point years in the past 7. I also believe small players have a longer shelf life and that Roy would likely be playing at a high level for another 5 years. I also like Roy's durability - he's been very healthy, save the '10-11 season where he only played 35 games. Durability is huge in the cap era IMO. Especially for the top end of the roster, where it's so difficult to replace injured players in-season.
Thankfully, neither is Gillis. And it's why I don't expect anything more than us trading a goalie and/or a 2nd rounder (at most) this season.

Trading a 1st would be too risky, and I doubt Gillis does that unless a good hockey deal is in place.

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03-19-2013, 02:38 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
If we're looking at a top 10 pick at the deadline I wouldn't move it for Roy either. If it's in the 20 range then it's more reasonable.
Nope. No moving first round picks for rentals, especially in this draft. Lets face it this team isn't winning the cup this year Roy or not. We aren't turning into the Flames. They thought Jokinnen would put them over the top, they ended up not making the playoffs and the Coyotes ended up with Brandon Gormley.

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03-19-2013, 02:40 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Catamarca Livin View Post
We are not Calgary, we have the same core as the past 5 years, i do not think it has regressed in a large way.
Exactly. The Sedins have been even or plus players in 25 of 28 games this year. If Kesler can return to centre a line that wins it's head to head matchups and you can get another centre that can do the same, there's no reason this team can't beat anybody.

This team will compete as long as the Sedins can continue to play at this level. The defense is strong and not declining and the goaltending is there.

People are underestimating just how poor the play has been at centre this season and how crucial that position is. Behind Henrik, our pivots have been chewed up and spit out from game 1 until now, including Kesler.

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03-19-2013, 02:42 PM
  #193
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Alright so this is the Canucks right now

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Raymond-Ebbett-Hansen
Higgins-Lapierre-Weise
Sestito-Schroeder-Pinnizzotto

This is a disaster. First of all if AV is gonna work with this lineup he has to do this.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows (First line)
Raymond-Schroeder-Hansen (Great speedy line that puts up points)
Higgins-Lapierre-Weise (Lapierre is not bad in the faceoff)
Sestito-Ebbett-Pinnizzotto (Energy line)

Let Jensen adjust to the AHL then maybe call him up in April. All I have to say is wow this guy is amazing 4 goals in 6 games with the Wolves so far keep it up. It seems like he was not that great in Denmark but every time he played in the OHL and now AHL he has been doing good. His run in Sweden was not bad either.
Kassian is back tonight. I'd do

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Raymond-Burrows-Hansen
Higgins-Schroeder-Weise(Jensen in a couple games will take this spot)
Pinnozotto-Lapierre-Sestito

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03-19-2013, 02:46 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by canucksrool View Post
This is a disaster. First of all if AV is gonna work with this lineup he has to do this.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows (First line)
Raymond-Schroeder-Hansen (Great speedy line that puts up points)
Higgins-Lapierre-Weise (Lapierre is not bad in the faceoff)
Sestito-Ebbett-Pinnizzotto (Energy line)
In what league would that second line put up points? Maybe the AHL, but certainly not the NHL, and certainly not the Western Conference. Let's face it, until we get some NHL calibre centres on this team, we're pretty much hooped as far as scoring goes.

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03-19-2013, 02:46 PM
  #195
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Kassian is back tonight. I'd do

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Raymond-Burrows-Hansen
Higgins-Schroeder-Weise(Jensen in a couple games will take this spot)
Pinnozotto-Lapierre-Sestito
That's good to hear.

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03-19-2013, 02:48 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
Nope. No moving first round picks for rentals, especially in this draft. Lets face it this team isn't winning the cup this year Roy or not. We aren't turning into the Flames. They thought Jokinnen would put them over the top, they ended up not making the playoffs and the Coyotes ended up with Brandon Gormley.
No, we're turning into the L.A. Kings. They moved their 1st rd pick for a centre and won the cup.

Not sure what the back to back President's trophy winning team has to do with the Flames, a team that has missed the playoffs for 5 straight years...

The Canucks are an extremely strong team from top to bottom and front to back. They just lack in one area, centre ice. Fail to address that and maybe you can claim we're the Calgary Flames.

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03-19-2013, 02:49 PM
  #197
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BTW I was just looking at the draft when he was drafted and apparently we could have drafted Saad. Doesn't bother me that much though cause I know Jensen is going to turn into a better player. (Hope AV doesn't ruin his career) #FireAV

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03-19-2013, 02:50 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
Kassian is back tonight. I'd do

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Raymond-Burrows-Hansen
Higgins-Schroeder-Weise(Jensen in a couple games will take this spot)
Pinnozotto-Lapierre-Sestito
And I just don't think it's a good idea to neuter our one good scoring line by putting Kassian on it.

If we have to (and right now we don't have a choice) we should probably do this:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Raymond-Higgins-Hansen
Pinizzotto-Schroeder-Kassian
Sestito-Lapierre-Weise

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03-19-2013, 02:51 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
No, we're turning into the L.A. Kings. They moved their 1st rd pick for a centre and won the cup.

Not sure what the back to back President's trophy winning team has to do with the Flames, a team that has missed the playoffs for 5 straight years...

The Canucks are an extremely strong team from top to bottom and front to back. They just lack in one area, centre ice. Fail to address that and maybe you can claim we're the Calgary Flames.
So what 1st rd pick are you talking about moving??

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03-19-2013, 02:51 PM
  #200
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Just to be different.

We dont need anything. We just need Kassian and Kesler to become healthy

Sedin Sedin Burrows

Raymond Schroeder Hansen

Higgens Kesler Kassian

Weise Lappy Sestito

Hamhuis Bieksa

Edler Garrison

Tanev Ballard

Alberts/Ballard

Lui /Schneider

The talent level is there. If we stick Kesler back in front and have the Sedins on the side walls with Edler and Garrison , our PP will soon rise back into the top 5.

We need only one of Luongo /Schneider to play well and we are set in goal.

This team is good enough to win the cup as is. We are not executing. Period. If its coaching or the players who knows. They had better change their attitude quickly.

The only piece I add is Raffi Torres . He adds incredible grit and can score . He can play anywhere from the 2nd to 4th line and kill penalties. This is the only deadline deal I do.

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