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Old
03-23-2013, 11:34 AM
  #301
Nasty Nazem
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
But the management has said they arent going to base decisions on "options" and they will strictly take the best team north regardless.

This season is about winning games and making the playoffs not worrying if were gonna lose a guy like Brett friggin Cecil to waivers.

Finding depth bullpen guys is prolly the easiest thing to do in baseball.
You mean the guy that's as good as Loup against lefties?

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03-23-2013, 11:41 AM
  #302
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You mean the guy that's as good as Loup against lefties?
Loup was better against Lefties last season.
He was dynamite in his rookie season and shows hes calm and can get both righties and lefites out. With Oliver and Loup (who was better then Cecil last season and has outpitched him this spring) why do we need Cecil?

We need to put the best team out starting day 1. Not worry about potentially losing a guy like Cecil or Jeffress to waivers.

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03-23-2013, 11:59 AM
  #303
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So no one is down for fantasy baseball?

I'm going to delete the league soon if no one joins. Don't be soft guys, league ID is 151793 password is hfboards.

Draft is tomorrow at Noon. If It's not full by later this afternoon, I'm gonna scrap it.

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03-23-2013, 12:03 PM
  #304
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Loup was better against Lefties last season.
He was dynamite in his rookie season and shows hes calm and can get both righties and lefites out. With Oliver and Loup (who was better then Cecil last season and has outpitched him this spring) why do we need Cecil?

We need to put the best team out starting day 1. Not worry about potentially losing a guy like Cecil or Jeffress to waivers.
I think the intent is players with equal experience it will be a best man for the job type of thing. Players who have more experience like Cecil can keep the job. Otherwise we should also be talking about Gose starting in CF and losing Rasmus to waivers.

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03-23-2013, 12:08 PM
  #305
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I think the intent is players with equal experience will be a best man for the job type of thing. Players who have more experience like Cecil can keep the job. Otherwise we should also be talking about Gose starting in CF and losing Rasmus to waivers.
The difference is Loup was lights out in the majors and Gose bordered on suckage.

Even if its not Cecil, what have Rogers or Jeffress done to show they would help this team win games more then Loup?

Loup was close to dominant when called up last season. He's basically been the best relief pitcher in spring. Sorry I cant get behind sending him down in favour of Rogers, Cecil or Jeffress.

This season is about WINNING. NOT Squeezing as much value out of marginal players as possible.

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03-23-2013, 12:10 PM
  #306
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Here are some stats that show Cecil is not a complete piece of garbage like many seem to think he is:

Loup vs lefties last year in AA: 264/.333/.321/.654Ö had a .218/.316/.317/.633 line against lefties in 2011. Its better in the bigs though: .207/.220/.241/.462 but that's in a extremely small sample size in which he didn't even surrender a homerun (that's not lasting a whole season).

Cecil career vs lefties: .232/.288/.369/.657 and that is as a starter (and 13 appearances as a reliever). Held them to a .214/.281/.321/.603 against lefties in 2012. .522 OPS in 2011. .597 OPS in 2010. His rookie season in 2009 was the only season lefties hit him well (.891 OPS).

Happ career vs lefties: .235/.303/.380/.684

So Cecil is very good against lefties and such as good as either Loup and Happ, if not better. Cecil velocity also ticked up at 91 mph last season out of the pen so I don't see why he can't continue to be effective against lefties. If Loup made this roster, it would be in a LOOGY which is what Cecil could do, along with being able to pitch multiple innings + spot start if Jays staff is really hurting. Jays will also experience many injuries throughout the season as every team does so having a legit major league guy pitching in AAA and being able to call him up without the team missing a beat is a pretty good thing to have.

As much as people hate Cecil, he could be effectively if used properly and I hope they keep him. Yes, it sucks big time for Happ and Loup because they do deserve to be in bigs but it happens. A legit major league starter in John Lannon spent last year pitching in AAA because the team had no room for him and he is a better pitcher than Happ. After going through what the team did last year, they need to have depth and it has to be quality not Jesse Chavez of the world.
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Loup was better against Lefties last season.
He was dynamite in his rookie season and shows hes calm and can get both righties and lefites out. With Oliver and Loup (who was better then Cecil last season and has outpitched him this spring) why do we need Cecil?

We need to put the best team out starting day 1. Not worry about potentially losing a guy like Cecil or Jeffress to waivers.
So Loup held lefites to a .630-.650 OPS in the minors but posted way better numbers against lefties in the majors. You really believe he somehow improved way more against lefties in the majors or is it more of a case that it was just small sample size? I mean, he didn't even give up a homerun and I would expect some regression to the mean. He is not going to have a 0.6 BB/9 either nor do I believe he will continue to hold righties to a .259/.268/.370/.638 with that arm angle. Loup was dominant against lefites in the minors but went HAM against lefties in the majors so forgive me if I don't buy the small sample size. He will always be dominant against lefties though because they will always have a tough time seeing the ball out of his hand but he won't be as good as he showed last season.

Cecil career numbers against lefites is a .657 OPS which is what Loup was doing to lefties in the minors and Cecil did that as a starter throwing his junk fastball which ticks up to decent/good velocity out of the pen.

Sure, you want to go with the best team but Jays need to keep depth too, especially after all the injuries that happened last season. It isn't just injuries either, guys will have bad years. What happens if Delabar struggles and you have no viable candidate to replace him? Depth is important. We're also talking about a marginal difference at best. Loup is not some elite reliever that has to be up no matter what. He's a good role guy that can get lefties out but lets not make him out to be more than that.

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03-23-2013, 12:11 PM
  #307
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The difference is Loup was lights out in the majors and Gose bordered on suckage.

Even if its not Cecil, what have Rogers or Jeffress done to show they would help this team win games more then Loup?

Loup was close to dominant when called up last season. He's basically been the best relief pitcher in spring. Sorry I cant get behind sending him down in favour of Rogers, Cecil or Jeffress.

This season is about WINNING. NOT Squeezing as much value out of marginal players as possible.
AA has also said that he doesn't look at stats and instead assesses their performance. He referenced how a couple years back JPA had terrible spring numbers but was having good at bats so they weren't concerned. They have only played very few games on TV so perhaps a bunch of those players are having good outings but not getting the results.

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03-23-2013, 12:18 PM
  #308
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The difference is Loup was lights out in the majors and Gose bordered on suckage.

Even if its not Cecil, what have Rogers or Jeffress done to show they would help this team win games more then Loup?

Loup was close to dominant when called up last season. He's basically been the best relief pitcher in spring. Sorry I cant get behind sending him down in favour of Rogers, Cecil or Jeffress.

This season is about WINNING. NOT Squeezing as much value out of marginal players as possible.
That means as much as Kansas and Seattle having the most wins in spring training. It means nothing.

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03-23-2013, 12:18 PM
  #309
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So Loup held lefites to a .630-.650 OPS in the minors but posted way better numbers against lefties in the majors. You really believe he somehow improved way more against lefties in the majors or is it more of a case that it was just small sample size? I mean, he didn't even give up a homerun and I would expect some regression to the mean. He is not going to have a 0.6 BB/9 either nor do I believe he will continue to hold righties to a .259/.268/.370/.638 with that arm angle. Loup was dominant against lefites in the minors but went HAM against lefties in the majors so forgive me if I don't buy the small sample size. He will always be dominant against lefties though because they will always have a tough time seeing the ball out of his hand but he won't be as good as he showed last season.

Cecil career numbers against lefites is a .657 OPS which is what Loup was doing to lefties in the minors and Cecil did that as a starter throwing his junk fastball which ticks up to decent/good velocity out of the pen.

Sure, you want to go with the best team but Jays need to keep depth too, especially after all the injuries that happened last season. It isn't just injuries either, guys will have bad years. What happens if Delabar struggles and you have no viable candidate to replace him? Depth is important. We're also talking about a marginal difference at best. Loup is not some elite reliever that has to be up no matter what. He's a good role guy that can get lefties out but lets not make him out to be more than that.
Loup was basically on the verge of being released but they decided to change his armslot and then he really took off (AA season and then with Jays). Citing stats before he made this change in his delivery are basically useless. You guys talk about depth like its hard to aquire! We aquired Delabar mid season last year for Marcus friggin Thames. Aquiring depth relievers mid season is very simple and happens every season with teams needing to add a solid arm to there pen. Even if its not Cecil, why would we put Loup in AAA when hes clearly a more effective pitcher right now then either Rogers or Jeffress. Even Yesterday AA joked about Jeffress saying hes been strugglin lately and that if he had another bad outing they would prolly have to do something with him (ie get rid of him).

This is all semantics. I want the best team possible starting from day 1 and imo that means Loup over all those 3 and I wouldnt lose a minute of sleep if they got exposed to waivers and picked up by another team. We actually had decent enough depth in AAA in Lincoln, Swimmer, Storey and Wagner. These guys arent studs but guys like Rogers or Jeffress arent that much better.

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03-23-2013, 12:22 PM
  #310
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AA has also said that he doesn't look at stats and instead assesses their performance. He referenced how a couple years back JPA had terrible spring numbers but was having good at bats so they weren't concerned. They have only played very few games on TV so perhaps a bunch of those players are having good outings but not getting the results.
Well both Rogers and Jeffress have MLB innings under there belt and it wasnt that great.

I cant believe the reaction some people around here are having when I'm suggestin we keep up one of our best relievers .

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03-23-2013, 12:23 PM
  #311
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Loup was basically on the verge of being released but they decided to change his armslot and then he really took off (AA season and then with Jays). Citing stats before he made this change in his delivery are basically useless. You guys talk about depth like its hard to aquire! We aquired Delabar mid season last year for Marcus friggin Thames. Aquiring depth relievers mid season is very simple and happens every season with teams needing to add a solid arm to there pen. Even if its not Cecil, why would we put Loup in AAA when hes clearly a more effective pitcher right now then either Rogers or Jeffress. Even Yesterday AA joked about Jeffress saying hes been strugglin lately and that if he had another bad outing they would prolly have to do something with him (ie get rid of him).

This is all semantics. I want the best team possible starting from day 1 and imo that means Loup over all those 3 and I wouldnt lose a minute of sleep if they got exposed to waivers and picked up by another team. We actually had decent enough depth in AAA in Lincoln, Swimmer, Storey and Wagner. These guys arent studs but guys like Rogers or Jeffress arent that much better.
.255/.323/.309/.632 against lefties in 2012 at Double A.

http://minorleaguecentral.com/player...901&split=2012

Rogers had a 3.06 ERA in 53 IP with Cleveland last year with far superior stuff. Yes, he struggled before that but he was also a starter who pitched in the worst ballpark possible for a pitcher. Rogers is already a lock for this team and certainly not someone you cut for a LOOGY arm.


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03-23-2013, 12:26 PM
  #312
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Well both Rogers and Jeffress have MLB innings under there belt and it wasnt pretty.

I cant believe the reaction some people around here are having when I'm suggestin we keep up one of our best relievers .
Rogers was lights out last year in Cleveland.

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03-23-2013, 12:30 PM
  #313
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That means as much as Kansas and Seattle having the most wins in spring training. It means nothing.
I'm sorry, but if you're a rotation guy who is a lefty specialist (meaning not many spots available) and you're not guaranteed a spot, having a good spring training means everything.

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03-23-2013, 12:31 PM
  #314
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.255/.323/.309/.632 against lefties in 2012 at Double A.

http://minorleaguecentral.com/player...901&split=2012

Rogers had a 3.06 ERA in 53 IP vs Cleveland last year with far superior stuff. Yes, he struggled before that but he was also a starter who pitched in the worst ballpark possible for a pitcher. Rogers is already a lock for this team and certainly not someone you cut for a LOOGY arm.
That was the first season he was throwing way from the side. Think maybe he started getting better at it as he went along? The minors also involve pitchers being asked to specifically work on certain pitchs so theres alot more that goes into a prospect then just the sheer numbers.

Im not even going to argue this anymore seeing Loup IS going to make the team. Theres no way all 3 of Cecil, Rogers and Jeffress make the team over him like some here have suggested.

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03-23-2013, 12:33 PM
  #315
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That was the first season he was throwing way from the side. Think maybe he started getting better at it as he went along? The minors also involve pitchers being asked to specifically work on certain pitchs so theres alot more that goes into a prospect then just the sheer numbers.

Im not even going to argue this anymore seeing Loup IS going to make the team. Theres no way all 3 of Cecil, Rogers and Jeffress make the team over him like some here have suggested.
You really think we are going to just flush assets down the toilet to let a player who has lots of options left contribute 30 IP this year?

Edit: Not to mention we will have a hole in the pen next year when Oliver is gone that Loup could fill in for.

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03-23-2013, 12:36 PM
  #316
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That was the first season he was throwing way from the side. Think maybe he started getting better at it as he went along? The minors also involve pitchers being asked to specifically work on certain pitchs so theres alot more that goes into a prospect then just the sheer numbers.

Im not even going to argue this anymore seeing Loup IS going to make the team. Theres no way all 3 of Cecil, Rogers and Jeffress make the team over him like some here have suggested.
Quote:
But when the Toronto Blue Jays summoned Aaron Loup for a chat in 2011, it also turned out to be a career-lifting moment.

Throw the same pitches, they told. Just lower your arm from its conventional arc. Become a sidearm pitcher, they said.
No easy ride for Blue Jays in the AL East

In late June two years ago, Loupís ERA was 7.26 at high Class-A Dunedin. By the end of the season, he had lowered it to 4.76. And by the following July, the unheralded left-hander was pitching in the big leagues.
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...ering-his-arm/

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03-23-2013, 12:37 PM
  #317
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You really think we are going to just flush assets down the toilet to let a player who has lots of options left contribute 30 IP this year?
You really think were going to run out a inferior team just so we dont lose marginal arms to waivers?

People make it seem like Brett Cecil, Rogers and Jeffress are world beaters

I'll happily come back here in a week and laugh when Loup makes the team and then I can enjoy seeing you complain that AA dont know what hes doing.

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03-23-2013, 12:39 PM
  #318
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WE ARE TRYING TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES THIS YEAR. This isnt like past years where we were in "asset collecting" mode.

LOUP until proven otherwise is currently one of our best relievers.

Him making the team over marginal arms makes total sense.

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03-23-2013, 12:39 PM
  #319
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I love Loup. Really hope we keep him up.

As for Happ? I think he's the better pitcher right now and if we can start with Ricky on the DL, I think that's the best option. Happ will have some time to prove he deserves to be here, while Ricky would get some more work in AAA.

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03-23-2013, 12:39 PM
  #320
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You really think were going to run out a inferior team just so we dont lose marginal arms to waivers?

People make it seem like Brett Cecil, Rogers and Jeffress are world beaters

I'll happily come back here in a week and laugh when Loup makes the team and then I can enjoy seeing you complain that AA dont know what hes doing.
I thought you were pro "give Romero a chance"? Which is throwing away far more innings to an inferior player. How does that one work?

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03-23-2013, 12:42 PM
  #321
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I thought you were pro "give Romero a chance"? Which is throwing away far more innings to an inferior player. How does that one work?
I was until he showed he cant even get out single A ball players and totally walked the entire team. At that point I realized this guy is totally broken and we cant afford to throw him 4-5 starts to allow him to find his game.

Oh no we might lose Jeremy Jeffress. Dude throws 98 but cant find the strikezone.

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03-23-2013, 12:44 PM
  #322
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I was until he showed he cant even get out single A ball players and totally walked the entire team. At that point I realized this guy is totally broken and we cant afford to throw him 4-5 starts to allow him to find his game.

Oh no we might lose Jeremy Jeffress. Dude throws 98 but cant find the strikezone.
When did I defend Jeffress? I don't care if he makes the team, I think Cecil and Rogers make the team though and Loup goes to AAA where he can get far more innings in a late innings role.

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03-23-2013, 12:48 PM
  #323
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When did I defend Jeffress? I don't care if he makes the team, I think Cecil and Rogers make the team though and Loup goes to AAA where he can get far more innings in a late innings role.
So your going with a 6 man bullpen?

Santos, Jannsen, Oliver, Delabar, Rogers and Cecil?

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03-23-2013, 12:57 PM
  #324
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So your going with a 6 man bullpen?

Santos, Jannsen, Oliver, Delabar, Rogers and Cecil?
And Jeffress. If Cecil and Jeffress struggle in regular season then by all means, cut them loose but give them a legit chance instead of relying on pointless spring training stats.

Hey cool, Jays game is going to be on sportsnet. I think that's the first spring training game I'll be able to watch.

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03-23-2013, 01:01 PM
  #325
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And Jeffress. If Cecil and Jeffress struggle in regular season then by all means, cut them loose but give them a legit chance instead of relying on pointless spring training stats.

Hey cool, Jays game is going to be on sportsnet. I think that's the first spring training game I'll be able to watch.
When it comes to Jeffress are they really pointless?
They look exactly like his previous MLB stats. Dude throws hard, can strike someone out but gives up tons of hits and walks a ton. At what point do you just except that maybe this guy cant learn to control his stuff and actually throw strikes and not walk the park. It sounded like AA and management have really soured on Jeffress even hinting if he has one more bad outing he might be let go. Also started off by making a joke that some of the balls hit off of Jefress might still be in the air.

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