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Philadelphia proposals

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Old
03-18-2013, 05:48 PM
  #1
SchennSational1022*
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Philadelphia proposals

Instead of the daily couturier -Gardiner proposal. Pretty similar though

To Philly:
Morgan Rielly

To Toronto:
Sean Couturier

I am not a big fan of trading Couts for Gardiner, but I think this is a better deal for us. Not sure how Leaf fans feel though


To Philadelphia:
Brandon Gormley

To Phoenix:
Sean Couturier

How far off are these deals. I am not an advocate of trading Couturier, but I also dont consider him untoucheable as many flyer fans do. I feel if we had a chance at either of these deals, especially the second one, Id think long and hard.

Thoughts?

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03-18-2013, 05:51 PM
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Can't speak for the Coyotes, but it seems to me like they already have a similar player to Couturier in Martin Hanzal (big centre with limited offensive upside who is astounding defensively). I would think they would have more interest in Brayden Schenn

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03-18-2013, 05:52 PM
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The Couturier-Gormely one is terrible. I don't know enough about Rielly to judge that deal.

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03-18-2013, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DKQ View Post
Can't speak for the Coyotes, but it seems to me like they already have a similar player to Couturier in Martin Hanzal (big centre with limited offensive upside who is astounding defensively). I would think they would have more interest in Brayden Schenn
Sorry but Couturiers offense isnt "limited". He had the highest PPG percentage in the same draft with players like RNH and Huberdeau. Just because hes struggling thisbyear, at the old age of 20, and getting hard minutes against top competition, doesnt make his offensive potential limited. He will be a 60+ point player in this league.

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03-18-2013, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
The Couturier-Gormely one is terrible. I don't know enough about Rielly to judge that deal.
For us? Do you know how good of a player Gormley is? I think thats a very good deal for us, wasnt sure about Coyote POV. Thats why I posted it.

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03-18-2013, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
For us? Do you know how good of a player Gormley is? I think thats a very good deal for us, wasnt sure about Coyote POV. Thats why I posted it.
Yes, for us. Gormley hasn't done anything in the NHL to warrant a return like Couturier. I don't care how much potential he has. He still hasn't done anything in the NHL. It isn't a guarantee that someone who does good in the lower leagues can translate that to a higher league. I think Gormley can top out as a great #2, but will probably be a good #3.

He isn't a #1/potential #1 I would include Couts in a deal for.

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03-18-2013, 05:59 PM
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Gut reaction: I think the values are probably somewhat reasonable, but I'd be wary of doing either one of those.

Couturier is far more established than either of those players, at a similar age (he's nearly a full year younger than Gormley). He has a higher floor than both Rielly and Gormley, and a higher ceiling than Gormley. (Reilly could be a truly special player, so placing his potential is a bit more difficult).

If we were going to move Couturier, I'd prefer to package him with other assets and picks and go after a more established defenseman (Edler?)


Last edited by Jack de la Hoya: 03-19-2013 at 07:03 AM. Reason: I can't read a calendar. lol.
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Old
03-18-2013, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
Yes, for us. Gormley hasn't done anything in the NHL to warrant a return like Couturier. I don't care how much potential he has. He still hasn't done anything in the NHL. It isn't a guarantee that someone who does good in the lower leagues can translate that to a higher league. I think Gormley can top out as a great #2, but will probably be a good #3.
Im just very high on Gormley. Maybe they can add a 2nd or 3rd to even it out? Id take a "great number 2 " defensemen for a player like Couturier who is slated to be only our 3rd line center for years to come,albeit a great one. Couturier is somewhat expendable with Schenns emergence and Laughton. Factor in his high value around the league and you have to at least peek around to see what you can get for him.

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03-18-2013, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
Im just very high on Gormley. Maybe they can add a 2nd or 3rd to even it out? Id take a "great number 2 " defensemen for a player like Couturier who is slated to be only our 3rd line center for years to come,albeit a great one. Couturier is somewhat expendable with Schenns emergence and Laughton. Factor in his high value around the league and you have to at least peek around to see what you can get for him.
Laughton isn't a guarantee to replace Couturier's role. I don't think he can be as good defensively as Couturier, especially against Malkin because of his size. You can't teach size. I just love Couts because of the way he gives arguably the best player in the world fits.

I would trade BSchenn first before Couturier.

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03-18-2013, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
Instead of the daily couturier -Gardiner proposal. Pretty similar though

To Philly:
Morgan Rielly

To Toronto:
Sean Couturier

I am not a big fan of trading Couts for Gardiner, but I think this is a better deal for us. Not sure how Leaf fans feel though


To Philadelphia:
Brandon Gormley

To Phoenix:
Sean Couturier

How far off are these deals. I am not an advocate of trading Couturier, but I also dont consider him untoucheable as many flyer fans do. I feel if we had a chance at either of these deals, especially the second one, Id think long and hard.

Thoughts?
Why? There is no reason to move Couturier. None.

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03-18-2013, 06:06 PM
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This was my response to a Coturier -Gormley swap to a scout on twitter. I guess i found my answer

@coreypronman: @ferone10 Couturier is >> Gormley though.

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03-18-2013, 06:07 PM
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As a Leaf fan I wouldn't move Rielly in any deal that didn't involve us getting a truly elite C under the age of 25.

Simply put Rielly is easily our best prospect in as long as I can remember, and has elite potential (though nobody knows if he will ever hit it). The only thing that will make us consider moving him is part of a package for a truly spectacular player in his own right.

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03-18-2013, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
Why? There is no reason to move Couturier. None.
To say there is no reason is dumb. We have out number one center obviously, and Brayden Schenn looked absolutely lost this year until we put him at center. Its clear hes better suited for center than wing. That leaves Couturier for our 3rd line center? With our glaring need for a great defensemen, and another prospect like Laughton who could fill in 3C, its not ridiculous to try to guage Couturiers value for a similar defensemen....

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03-18-2013, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
To say there is no reason is dumb. We have out number one center obviously, and Brayden Schenn looked absolutely lost this year until we put him at center. Its clear hes better suited for center than wing. That leaves Couturier for our 3rd line center? With our glaring need for a great defensemen, and another prospect like Laughton who could fill in 3C, its not ridiculous to try to guage Couturiers value for a similar defensemen....
Devil's advocate: why not just wait until Laughton truly breaks out, and reassess?

The Flyers might be better off moving Laughton for a D prospect who projects to a 3/4 PP-type as his ceiling (e.g., no one would say top-pairing upside). That won't happen because prospect-for-prospects deals are rare, but moving Couturier puts a huge load on Laughton, who could always be moved to wing.

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03-18-2013, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Devil's advocate: why not just wait until Laughton truly breaks out, and reassess?

The Flyers might be better off moving Laughton for a D prospect who projects to a 3/4 PP-type as his ceiling (e.g., no one would say top-pairing upside). That won't happen because prospect-for-prospects deals are rare, but moving Couturier puts a huge load on Laughton, who could always be moved to wing.
Because Couturier would bring us back a defensemen of higher potential. We need the best we can get on defense. I see exactly what you mean though.

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Old
03-18-2013, 06:22 PM
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There isn't enough incentive in either deal to move Couturier for. I'm pretty reasonable on Couturier's value, but these both just seem like undersells for me. Neither guy has proven that they can be NHL difference makers at this point, and Couturier has, even if he's not lighting the world on fire offensively yet.

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03-18-2013, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
Because Couturier would bring us back a defensemen of higher potential. We need the best we can get on defense. I see exactly what you mean though.
I'm not sure he's going to command that kind of return right now.

Long-term, there might be a log-jam at center, but right now, Couturier can't hold down the 3C position because of his offensive struggles. Yes, it is just a slump, and no, I don't expect it to hinder his long-term development, but I don't see a rush to move him either.

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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
There isn't enough incentive in either deal to move Couturier for. I'm pretty reasonable on Couturier's value, but these both just seem like undersells for me. Neither guy has proven that they can be NHL difference makers at this point, and Couturier has, even if he's not lighting the world on fire offensively yet.
Gormley feels like a bad swap. I think he will be a very solid top-4 defenseman, but not a difference-maker. Maybe that turns out to be true for Couturier as well, but I still see his ceilling as higher than that, so I'd hate for them to prematurely make that move.

Rielly would be a very...bold...move. A high-risk swap. It could work out gloriously for both sides, but it also seems likely to blow-up.

I'd prefer the Flyers stay the course with Couturier for now. See where they land this year. They might not be bad enough to get to Seth Jones territory, but there are other defenseman in the draft who could turn out to be very strong prospects in their own right (Nurse, Zadorov)

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Old
03-18-2013, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I'm not sure he's going to command that kind of return right now.

Long-term, there might be a log-jam at center, but right now, Couturier can't hold down the 3C position because of his offensive struggles. Yes, it is just a slump, and no, I don't expect it to hinder his long-term development, but I don't see a rush to move him either.
Couturier should be in the third line center role right now though. There's absolutely nothing that suggests that Talbot or Fedotenko deserve that role more. Give Couturier the same linemates for more than a game or two, and I bet they start to contribute offensively at least at a limited level. It's also unreasonable to ask so much of Couturier defensively and then expect him to put up respectable numbers as a twenty year old sophomore.

Edit: That's a flaw of team design more than anything.

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03-18-2013, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Couturier should be in the third line center role right now though. There's absolutely nothing that suggests that Talbot or Fedotenko deserve that role more. Give Couturier the same linemates for more than a game or two, and I bet they start to contribute offensively at least at a limited level. It's also unreasonable to ask so much of Couturier defensively and then expect him to put up respectable numbers as a twenty year old sophomore.

Edit: That's a flaw of team design more than anything.
Eh, I guess. But they put him in the 3C role and his play suffered at both ends of the ice (there were a few games in a row where his struggles with the puck led to bad turnovers and goals).

Would I prefer he play with more talented players? Yes. But he needs to earn that ice-time too. His offensive play was (slightly) better last year, when he was in an even more defensive role.

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03-18-2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
To say there is no reason is dumb. We have out number one center obviously, and Brayden Schenn looked absolutely lost this year until we put him at center. Its clear hes better suited for center than wing. That leaves Couturier for our 3rd line center? With our glaring need for a great defensemen, and another prospect like Laughton who could fill in 3C, its not ridiculous to try to guage Couturiers value for a similar defensemen....
Moving Couturier just because we have centre depth is foolish. Even when the Penguins moved Jordan Staal (who was their 3C when they won the Cup) they got another solid defensive centre back in return. Laughton is not ready full-time to be the 3C, if even the 4C. The fact that we have this much centre depth gives us a good excuse to not rush Laughton and hold onto our assets until we have players ready to fill those holes. Couturier's "sophomore slump" is no reason to move him.

If the Flyers draft high enough this year they will be able to grab a solid young defensemen (Jones, Ristolainen, Pulock, Zadorov, Nurse, etc.) like the ones you're trying to trade for and perhaps they can move other assets for more immediate help.

Although, Rielly and Gormley are excellent players. I still wouldn't move Couturier for either at this point but I wouldn't be surprised if Toronto or Phoenix wanted to hold onto them too. The Flyers didn't even move Schenn+Couturier for Weber... and Rielly/Gormley aren't close to half as good as Weber yet (not saying they won't be, just saying since the Flyers need help now).

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03-18-2013, 06:29 PM
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subban for couturier +

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03-18-2013, 06:39 PM
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subban for couturier +
If there's a list of defensemen I'd move Couturier for, Subban is near if not at the top. No way Montreal moves Subban for anything though.

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03-18-2013, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
Sorry but Couturiers offense isnt "limited". He had the highest PPG percentage in the same draft with players like RNH and Huberdeau. Just because hes struggling thisbyear, at the old age of 20, and getting hard minutes against top competition, doesnt make his offensive potential limited. He will be a 60+ point player in this league.
I forgot that junior stats were direct indicators of offensive potential. Ill remind you that Hanzal was also a prolific junior scorer, as were current NHL offensive superstars David Bolland, Max Talbot, Kyle Brodziak, and countless other players who never figured out how to score at the NHL level like they could in juniors. Couturier is a great young player, but I don't see him ever being a player who can lead a team offensively

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03-18-2013, 06:49 PM
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I forgot that junior stats were direct indicators of offensive potential. Ill remind you that Hanzal was also a prolific junior scorer, as were current NHL offensive superstars David Bolland, Max Talbot, Kyle Brodziak, and countless other players who never figured out how to score at the NHL level like they could in juniors. Couturier is a great young player, but I don't see him ever being a player who can lead a team offensively
I understand the point, but I believe those guys had their major success after their draft year, which is a bit different from Couturier. I'm sure there are examples, but how many guys had back-to-back 96 point seasons prior to being drafted, then failed to become more than depth / bottom-six types in the NHL?

EDIT: But I don't believe Couturier will ever be a PPG center (nor out-score Giroux. ). That said, he could be a 60 point, Selke-caliber C.

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03-18-2013, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I understand the point, but I believe those guys had their major success after their draft year, which is a bit different from Couturier.

EDIT: But I don't believe Couturier will ever be a PPG center (nor out-score Giroux. ). That said, he could be a 60 point, Selke-caliber C.
I tried to find players who were high scoring juniors but have made NHL careers out of defensive ability rather than offense. There are other players who have had similar draft years to Couturier that never scored very much in the NHL.

And yeah, when I said lead a team offensively, I was referring to Phoenix. Couturier can't hold a candle to Giroux's offensive talent

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