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Enough with the Pittsburgh "model" nonsense

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:46 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
If they both end up with top picks a few years in a row, who cares how we got there?
In order for something to be a model to follow or a plan to use it has to be something that can be replicated. Thats why how they got those picks matters.

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03-19-2013, 10:47 PM
  #52
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You're basically arguing we will build a winner with inept management/ownership that will spend a lot of money and have crappy teams. Yet miraculously that same ownership will be able to somehow realize when its time to stop being inept. Then add the complimentary players to the high picks and then surge to a CUp run?
Dude... You are describing the Sabres.

We have inept ownership/management that spent a lot of money to build a crappy team.

You and I better hope they realize it's time to stop being inept and fix this disaster....


Or we could just keep being awful...


Honestly I don't even know what your hang up is....

But without some high picks we'll never be good.

Our only semi-elite player is a top 5 pick... Nearly every elite player in te league is a high pick.

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03-19-2013, 10:47 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm not and frankly need more info to weigh the relevance. I'm not going to look for it.
google is pretty difficult to work with... its like, you have to type a few words and then click... and then read...

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03-19-2013, 10:50 PM
  #54
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http://jacksonville.com/sports/footb...ebuilding-plan

jags owner endorses rebuilding plan
dumping veterans
letting free agents walk

understands doing it the "hard way" and not the quick/easy way... is doing it the right way

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03-19-2013, 10:52 PM
  #55
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Khan basically took a big dump on your "assumption" about owners

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03-19-2013, 10:55 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
"rebuilding through the draft" puts you in control
"rebuilding through trades" is dependant on other GMs being morons
You do both and you know it. No team wins with just their draft picks. Btw we've already been drafting the pieces for a succesful team. We just traded for our #1 offensive center last deadline. Ennis is showing the ability to also be an effective top 6 center. We now need a top 6/9 defensive center to add to the mix.

Regier made two big trades the same year we bottomed out. He got Briere and Drury in the same year (2003) we drafted Vanek. That was the year we bottomed out. The following season we finished 9th and just missed the playoffs. I feel thats the path he will take again.

There is also this feeling you have to be in the top 5 to get top players. Yes the chances are greater but many of the top drafted Hawks and Kings were not drafted in the top 5 or even top 10.

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03-19-2013, 10:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
In order for something to be a model to follow or a plan to use it has to be something that can be replicated. Thats why how they got those picks matters.
I think it only matters to you.

Everyone else just wants to play young guys, cut payroll to give us flexibility in the future, add picks by trading vets, take our lumps, draft well and be good in a few years.

Pittsburgh drafted well, took their lumps, drafted well and ended up being good.

It's just an easy way to say you're Ok with being bad with a growing team.

It's like a symantics argument...



I would just not worry about it....

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03-19-2013, 10:58 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
google is pretty difficult to work with... its like, you have to type a few words and then click... and then read...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Khan basically took a big dump on your "assumption" about owners
When I present a position based on something I've read or think is a great counter point. I present the research. Its not my job to do the research to make your argument.

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03-19-2013, 11:01 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
You do both and you know it. No team wins with just their draft picks. Btw we've already been drafting the pieces for a succesful team. We just traded for our #1 offensive center last deadline. Ennis is showing the ability to also be an effective top 6 center. We now need a top 6/9 defensive center to add to the mix.

Regier made two big trades the same year we bottomed out. He got Briere and Drury in the same year (2003) we drafted Vanek. That was the year we bottomed out. The following season we finished 9th and just missed the playoffs. I feel thats the path he will take again.
Who are the Briere's/Drury's you think might be on the trade market in the next 12 months?

it's a nice thought...

(you can bottom out AND still look for those trades... but if you don't bottom out and increase your odds of impact players being added through the draft... then you get stuck in mediocrity for AWHILE)

Quote:
There is also this feeling you have to be in the top 5 to get top players. Yes the chances are greater but many of the top drafted Hawks and Kings were not drafted in the top 5 or even top 10.

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03-19-2013, 11:04 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
When I present a position based on something I've read or think is a great counter point. I present the research. Its not my job to do the research to make your argument.
i figure if you discover it yourself, your more likely to recognize the flaw in your hypothesis

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03-19-2013, 11:12 PM
  #61
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i figure if you discover it yourself, your more likely to recognize the flaw in your hypothesis
The Jags are one of the poorest NFL franchises and are in league with FAR MORE certainty with draft picks becoming NFLers since they are 21-22 years old when they get drafted. I fail to see the relevance to a NHL team with an owner with endless money to spend on the team and a draft that is an enormous crap shoot because 18 year olds are getting drafted.

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03-19-2013, 11:17 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The Jags are one of the poorest NFL franchises and are in league with FAR MORE certainty with draft picks becoming NFLers since they are 21-22 years old when they get drafted. I fail to see the relevance to a NHL team with an owner with endless money to spend on the team and a draft that is an enormous crap shoot because 18 year olds are getting drafted.
Khan is worth 2.9 billion

FAR MORE certainty?

I don't know about that... if we looked at JUST top 5 picks, i think we'd be talking similar success rate. In fact, my inclination is that in the last 10 years, the NFL has much bigger top 5 busts (Jason Smith, Jamarcus, etc)

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03-19-2013, 11:24 PM
  #63
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I promise not to call what I want "The Pittsburgh Model" ever again (although I don't think I ever have)


I want the team to trade some of the vets with expiring contracts for picks and prospects, play young guys, and let the chips fall where they may.... Which is likely not making the playoffs for a year or two.

I'm totally fine with the Sabres drafting in the top 5 for 2-3 years, while a young team learns.

Hopefully the end result is a young talented team with financial flexibility to add when we are a playoff team.


Whatever "model" that is, let's do that.

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03-19-2013, 11:27 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
I promise not to call what I want "The Pittsburgh Model" ever again (although I don't think I ever have)


I want the team to trade some of the vets with expiring contracts for picks and prospects, play young guys, and let the chips fall where they may.... Which is likely not making the playoffs for a year or two.

I'm totally fine with the Sabres drafting in the top 5 for 2-3 years, while a young team learns.

Hopefully the end result is a young talented team with financial flexibility to add when we are a playoff team.


Whatever "model" that is, let's do that.
it's called the "Rebuild Model"

But when you mention it, you are inclined to point to Successful teams that went through their OWN rebuilds... and that somehow allows joshjull to link "Rebuilding" with financial/ownership/management issues

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03-19-2013, 11:28 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Khan is worth 2.9 billion

FAR MORE certainty?

I don't know about that... if we looked at JUST top 5 picks, i think we'd be talking similar success rate. In fact, my inclination is that in the last 10 years, the NFL has much bigger top 5 busts (Jason Smith, Jamarcus, etc)
Net worth for owners in NFL isn't as relevant as for NHL owners ... only 1 or 2 (if that) teams lose money in a season no matter how bad their teams are in the NFL...

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03-19-2013, 11:31 PM
  #66
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Net worth for owners in NFL isn't as relevant as for NHL owners ... only 1 or 2 (if that) teams lose money in a season no matter how bad their teams are in the NFL...
that's not the point.

the point is the OP suggesting that no team that didn't have ownership and/or financial problems would "intentionally lose".

what "intentional lose" means in context here is, building through the draft, and NOT through veterans/free agents.

The Jags do not have an ownership issue or financial problems in regards to their ability to pay for talent.

The owner is CHOOSING to go through a rebuild and focus on youth

The OP has associated what the Jags are doing with "intentionally losing"... something he says a stable franchise/owner would NEVER permit

Khan is an example that disproves the OPs entire premise

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03-19-2013, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
it's called the "Rebuild Model"

But when you mention it, you are inclined to point to Successful teams that went through their OWN rebuilds... and that somehow allows joshjull to link "Rebuilding" with financial/ownership/management issues
Which is why, IMO, this entire argument is essentially symantics.

If everyone could just agree not to mention Pittsburgh and just say rebuild through the draft everyone could be happy, right?

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03-19-2013, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
I think it only matters to you.

Everyone else just wants to play young guys, cut payroll to give us flexibility in the future, add picks by trading vets, take our lumps, draft well and be good in a few years.

Pittsburgh drafted well, took their lumps, drafted well and ended up being good.

It's just an easy way to say you're Ok with being bad with a growing team.

It's like a symantics argument...



I would just not worry about it....

See thats the problem. Thats not what happened. The sucked because they literally couldn't afford to ice a competent NHL team in 3 years prior to the lockout. It wasn't a plan to rebuild the team by dumping vets playing kids and taking their lumps. It was a plan to exist as a franchise nothing more. Hell Mario at one point had to forgive millions in back salary to the franchise in order to keep them afloat. Do you really see Pegula icing a team like this on purpose?

Then they got Crosby in a 30 team weighted draft lottery where they had the same chance of winning it as we did, the Jackets and the Rags because we all missed the playoffs the 3 season prior to the lockout. But it was still only a roughly 6% chance at winning the lottery for those 4 teams. Thats not a plan, thats luck getting Crosby.


By any reasonable measure the Pens had defied some incredible odds to be able to be that bad, win a lottery AND have that level of talent available when they drafted. The odds of replicating this is close to zero.

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03-19-2013, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
that's not the point.

the point is the OP suggesting that no team that didn't have ownership and/or financial problems would "intentionally lose".

what "intentional lose" means in context here is, building through the draft, and NOT through veterans/free agents.

The Jags do not have an ownership issue or financial problems in regards to their ability to pay for talent.

The owner is CHOOSING to go through a rebuild and focus on youth

The OP has associated what the Jags are doing with "intentionally losing"... something he says a stable franchise/owner would NEVER permit

Khan is an example that disproves the OPs entire premise

I see.... but my point is... Khan can do that because he's going to make money no matter what...and can afford to do a rebuild like that.

Losing money and "intentionally sucking" or rebuilding is a lot harder to swallow than making money while "intentionally sucking" or rebuilding.

More NFL owners are able to do that than NHL owners simply because its almost a certain that the owners in NFL will still make $.

Sabres could never "afford" to go into full tank or sell mode... we always had to be competitive to a certain degree in order to keep the franchise afloat... is probably the reason we usually pick 12-15 every year.

Could we afford to do a couple years of tanking now? ... Probably. Will Pegula allow it? Probably not.

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03-19-2013, 11:46 PM
  #70
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If Pegula "won't allow" us to properly rebuild, then we were better off with Golisano

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03-19-2013, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
Which is why, IMO, this entire argument is essentially symantics.

If everyone could just agree not to mention Pittsburgh and just say rebuild through the draft everyone could be happy, right?
How about the model Regier already used and makes infinitely more sense.

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03-19-2013, 11:49 PM
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JJ... The "why" they fielded a young cheap team is irrelevant.

It really is.

We can cut payroll and restructure the roster for less money and added flexibility for a few years without being broke

Nobody is gonna call Pegula cheap

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03-19-2013, 11:49 PM
  #73
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I see.... but my point is... Khan can do that because he's going to make money no matter what...and can afford to do a rebuild like that.

Losing money and "intentionally sucking" or rebuilding is a lot harder to swallow than making money while "intentionally sucking" or rebuilding.

More NFL owners are able to do that than NHL owners simply because its almost a certain that the owners in NFL will still make $.

Sabres could never "afford" to go into full tank or sell mode... we always had to be competitive to a certain degree in order to keep the franchise afloat... is probably the reason we usually pick 12-15 every year.

Could we afford to do a couple years of tanking now? ... Probably. Will Pegula allow it? Probably not.
If the "hockey people" around Pegula say that the best way to a cup is the full on rebuild... then I think he will be fine with that. he doesnt care about making money

not to mention that a full on rebuild probably means unspent cap space for a few years

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03-19-2013, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Khan is worth 2.9 billion

FAR MORE certainty?

I don't know about that... if we looked at JUST top 5 picks, i think we'd be talking similar success rate. In fact, my inclination is that in the last 10 years, the NFL has much bigger top 5 busts (Jason Smith, Jamarcus, etc)
Give me break, you can add 3-6 NFL roster players every year in the draft. Something that doesn't happen with the NHL draft. So rebuilding through the draft in the NFL is a very different process.

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03-19-2013, 11:51 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
How about the model Regier already used and makes infinitely more sense.
you mean the one predicated on other GMs being dumb enough to give you the pieces you need to build a championship contender?

yea, that prayer makes soooo much more sense

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