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Enough with the Pittsburgh "model" nonsense

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:31 AM
  #101
Jame
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Ott1-Hodgson-Armia
Foligno-Mackinnon-Grigorenko
Girgensons-Peca Guy-Ott2

then spend all other picks/trades fixing the defense

simple

lol

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03-20-2013, 12:34 AM
  #102
joshjull
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
There's a happy medium though that neither arguing party is willing to concede to. You don't trade EVERY roster player, but if you can flip some of the dead weight for picks, you do it without hesitation.

Bye, jordy. Bye, Slowgehr. Bye, Stafford.
Thats basically what I just argued in a previous post. At last year's deadline we traded a top prospect for another at a position of need (Hodgson/Kassian) and traded our 3rd line center that was part of the old leadership core for a 1st rounder. Then in the summer we traded our only proven top 6 center and member of the old leadership core for a tougher team oriented player to change the culture.

Another deadline and summer like that and we should be in better shape as a team than we are now



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Then, I'd look at one of the bigger three in TV, Miller, and Poms, preferably the latter two or one of them, and try to swing a blockbuster.

Lots of things need to happen. But it's not unrealistic.
I'm not opposed to trading them, just not for picks.


Last edited by joshjull: 03-20-2013 at 12:50 AM.
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03-20-2013, 12:35 AM
  #103
Karate Johnson
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The problem with adding a 3rd line center and a top 4 dman is

Yes, it makes us better, but we are still nowhere near contending for a cup... Maybe we make the playoffs.

Next year.

Then we lose Miller and Vanek for nothing, and we are back to 13th.


We are already bad with them, and with a $70+ million dollar payroll.

Let's reorganize.

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03-20-2013, 12:37 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm not opposed to trading them, just not for picks.
I'd trade them for whatever the best package is to include. If I'm getting two first rounders and a prospect, great. If I'm getting a team's 2C or 3D as the centerpiece, with lower picks, great.

To me, the point is that this core group of players who we've tried to base success around has not gotten the job done. And we need to find a new core. The crux of that core is in the progress of being built, but it'd be nice to have one of MacKinnon or Drouin, or a top tier talent, to serve as the one we lean on.

We're missing the superstar that every other team has won a Cup with. I'd kill for Dustin Brown as my captain, with Anze Kopitar and Drew Doughty as my reinforcements and blueprint pieces. Obviously, Malkin/Crosby...Toews/Kane... Getzlaf/Perry... you need to get something of the sort at some point.

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03-20-2013, 12:38 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull
I'm not opposed to trading them, just not for picks.
You aren't gonna get "picks" for Vanek and Poms.

You're gonna get 1st rounder and Hodgson, or Hodgson, Ott, and a 2nd.


And I'd rather get that than lose them for nothing.

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03-20-2013, 12:41 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
give me a pommer for Ott type trade
give me a vanek for Peca type trade
give me a miller for 1st type trade

next year is another year in the rebuild...
I'm in and I would argue the results on the ice would improve next season with trades like that. Thats assuming we add a goalie in another trade.

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03-20-2013, 12:42 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
You aren't gonna get "picks" for Vanek and Poms.

You're gonna get 1st rounder and Hodgson, or Hodgson, Ott, and a 2nd.


And I'd rather get that than lose them for nothing.
Relax you're a tad paranoid about this.

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03-20-2013, 12:46 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Relax you're a tad paranoid about this.
How so?

Their contract run out, the organizations in flux, we have young players we're going to have to pay an they will be coveted FA's


If all 3 hit FA I have little doubt 2 are gone, and probably 3.

I also have no desire to it long term to all 3 for a lot of money.

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03-20-2013, 12:46 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Relax you're a tad paranoid about this.
Kind of, but he's not wrong. Either trade them for assets or resign one of them and trade the other two. Letting any of those guys hit the market under our watch is poor asset management, since we don't need them in "win now" mode because we are far from at that point, you know?

Teams that keep big names as impending UFAs tend to do so if those players are key to potentially making a deep run in their contract year. Not the case here

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:48 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Kind of, but he's not wrong. Either trade them for assets or resign one of them and trade the other two. Letting any of those guys hit the market under our watch is poor asset management, since we don't need them in "win now" mode because we are far from at that point, you know?

Teams that keep big names as impending UFAs tend to do so if those players are key to potentially making a deep run in their contract year. Not the case here
They aren't free agents this summer. Relax.

We an upcoming trade deadline, a draft day/summer and another deadline day to trade them. We also have from July 1st of this summer to re-sign any of them as well. So relax.

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03-20-2013, 12:51 AM
  #111
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You don't rush to trade them... But you make them available going forward, and you make sure they've been moved by next deadline.

Worst case scenario is losing them for nothing.

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:52 AM
  #112
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Pittsburgh Model:

1.Draft in the top 5 three years in a row

2.Win the biggest draft lottery in NHL history to get the pick to select the best player to come in the NHL since Mario Lemieux

3.Win a cup and be in position to contend for a cup every season for the next 10 years.


We would never be so lucky to have that happen to us.We can't even get a top 3 pick, let alone 1st overall ones.

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:54 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
You don't rush to trade them... But you make them available going forward, and you make sure they've been moved by next deadline.

Worst case scenario is losing them for nothing.
Look I'm not saying your wrong but I think you're overly worried about this. Regier already dealt with this when he traded Goose and Roy. I'm fairly confident that any players not in their plans long term will be moved.

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03-20-2013, 12:56 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
They aren't free agents this summer. Relax.

We an upcoming trade deadline, a draft day/summer and another deadline day to trade them. We also have from July 1st of this summer to re-sign any of them as well. So relax.
Do you have any clue how obnoxiously condescending it is to read "relax" in response to a post with content/thought/purpose? You have to realize that. So ****ing irritating.

It doesn't matter if its this summer or next. You want to get better later, we aren't going to win anything next season. Don't let them hit the market. It's poor asset management if you're realistically trying to build a contender. Sign one of them if you don't believe he has been part of the problem. "Relaxing" and waiting until the last hour is how we got to the point we are now.

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03-20-2013, 01:05 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Do you have any clue how obnoxiously condescending it is to read "relax" in response to a post with content/thought/purpose? You have to realize that. So ****ing irritating.
Sorry if it offends you, that wasn't the intention. But I find the hand wringing to be a tad over the top.

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It doesn't matter if its this summer or next. You want to get better later, we aren't going to win anything next season. Don't let them hit the market. It's poor asset management if you're realistically trying to build a contender. Sign one of them if you don't believe he has been part of the problem. "Relaxing" and waiting until the last hour is how we got to the point we are now.
At any point have I advocated keeping them until the end of the 13-14 season to get every game out of them before letting them leave in free agency? No I haven't. The paranoia over losing them for nothing seems overly dramatic to me. Has that happened since Pegula took over? Players of high value leaving for nothing?


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Old
03-20-2013, 01:12 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Wasn't intended so sorry.



At any point have I advocated keeping them until the end of the 13-14 season to get every game out of them before letting them leave in free agency? But the paranoia over losing them for nothing seems overly dramatic to me. Has that happened since Pegula took over? Players of high value leaving for nothing?
Not at all, but instead of providing your preferred alternative to the suggestion of me and Barry Warry karate, you've told us to relax. So I'm not sure what your envisioned plan entails, if you're agreeing that we shouldn't let them leave for nothing.

What you said hasn't happened under Pegula. But it has under Regier. The circumstance in which you look to keep guys like that is if they can A) help you win now (they can't not are we even trying to win now) or B ) if you deem them part of what you need to do to move forward appropriately - in the case of B, you're still not letting them hit the market. So what's the issue with what karate said, or what I reinforced? Seems like we are at the same thing but again are trying to wordsmith in a differing fashion.

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03-20-2013, 01:14 AM
  #117
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What's the Pittsburgh model?

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03-20-2013, 01:19 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Not at all, but instead of providing your preferred alternative to the suggestion of me and Barry Warry karate, you've told us to relax. So I'm not sure what your envisioned plan entails, if you're agreeing that we shouldn't let them leave for nothing.

What you said hasn't happened under Pegula. But it has under Regier. The circumstance in which you look to keep guys like that is if they can A) help you win now (they can't not are we even trying to win now) or B ) if you deem them part of what you need to do to move forward appropriately - in the case of B, you're still not letting them hit the market. So what's the issue with what karate said, or what I reinforced? Seems like we are at the same thing but again are trying to wordsmith in a differing fashion.
Regier has less constraints and more financial capabilities to make trades under Pegula. The Roy trade never happens under Golisano because we wouldn't be taking on Pardy as a salary dump. He has much more flexibility now when making trades. It no longer has to be the same amount of dollars moving out as were coming in via trade. It enable him to do things like target specific players (like Ott) and make the trade happen.

I agree we shouldn't let them leave for nothing and I don't think they will.

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03-20-2013, 01:21 AM
  #119
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What's the Pittsburgh model?
I remember that and was laughing then as well.

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03-20-2013, 01:24 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
The problem with adding a 3rd line center and a top 4 dman is

Yes, it makes us better, but we are still nowhere near contending for a cup... Maybe we make the playoffs.


Next year.

Then we lose Miller and Vanek for nothing, and we are back to 13th.


We are already bad with them, and with a $70+ million dollar payroll.

Let's reorganize.
I'm talking about trading for young guys in that mold to add to the two young emerging top 6 offensive centers we already have (Ennis/Hodgson) and the current top 4 dmen we have (Ehrhoff, Sekera and Myers). I'm not talking about signing or trading for older stop gap fixes.

That would give us the right mix in our top 3 centers and our top 4 dmen for now and in the future. Then the kids we have in the system can push up from underneath to try and supplant them. IMO opinion thats a recipe for success.


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03-20-2013, 01:35 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Regier has less constraints and more financial capabilities to make trades under Pegula. The Roy trade never happens under Golisano because we wouldn't be taking on Pardy as a salary dump. He has much more flexibility now when making trades. It no longer has to be the same amount of dollars moving out as were coming in via trade. It enable him to do things like target specific players (like Ott) and make the trade happen.

I agree we shouldn't let them leave for nothing and I don't think they will.
Agreed, but here, the financial constraints (or lack thereof) are a separate issue to Regier's stubbornness and hesitation to part with his assets unless people overpay. My concern is that he will wait to find a massive overpayment that doesn't come. And we end up losing them for nothing. I guess I should have put a caveat in my post that alludes to the notion of Regier just getting good assets for them - best available deal - and not have a set price he is willing to accept that just never comes.

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03-20-2013, 01:39 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
The financial constraints are a separate issue to Regier's stubbornness and hesitation to part with his assets unless people overpay. My concern is that he will wait to find a massive overpayment that doesn't come. And we end up losing them for nothing. I guess I should have put a caveat in my post that alludes to the notion of Regier just getting good assets for them - best available deal - and not have a set price he is willing to accept that just never comes.
They are but it impacts how he operates now for good and bad. But it usually means players that aren't in the teams' plans are traded and the ones that are get re-signed well before they get near free agency. I supposed I should have expanded my point to include that second part as well.


He's been much more proactive under Pegula and its why I'm not that worried about losing them for nothing. Its far more likely he will piss off the fans by extending them than losing them for nothing.

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03-20-2013, 01:42 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
They are but it impacts how he operates now for good and bad. But it usually means players that aren't in the teams' plans are traded and the ones that are get re-signed well before they get near free agency. I supposed I should have expanded my point to include that second part as well.


He's been much more proactive under Pegula and its why I'm not that worried about losing them for nothing. Its far more likely he will piss off the fans by extending them than losing them for nothing.
probably, but you'd be unable to call that a total lack of asset management, which is better than mismanaging the situaish

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Old
03-20-2013, 07:54 AM
  #124
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I struggle to see how more teams don't follow the Pittsburgh model. All they have to do is draft a Crosby and Malkin, Simple as that.

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03-20-2013, 10:09 AM
  #125
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Yeah, the Pittsburgh model is a pipe dream. Crosby and Malkin are generational talents.

The Chicago model however....

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