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Worcester Sharks / San Francisco news thread III

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Old
07-21-2013, 03:37 AM
  #326
Kitten Mittons
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Which centers did he develop? Don't say Couture.

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07-21-2013, 03:40 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
Which centers did he develop? Don't say Couture.
If Hertl has to spend significant time in Worcester, I'm hoping he has enough talent where even Sommer can't corrupt and turn him into a 4th line grinder.

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07-21-2013, 03:54 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Cease to be able to develop a steady pipeline of Defensmen and centers
If by "develop defensemen and centers" you mean churn out 4th liners and bottom pairing defensemen with the exception of the players that would have made it with a potato as their AHL coach, then sure.

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07-21-2013, 06:33 AM
  #329
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For forwards, the ones that came from Worcester that could be called legitimate NHL players:

Logan Couture
Andrew Desjardins
Benn Ferriero
Jamie McGinn
Frazer McLaren
Joe Pavelski
Brad Staubitz
Tommy Wingels

Just looking at the list that's eight in seven seasons, so not terrible. But then you look a little deeper....

Couture was a total stud for every game he played here and there was no doubt he was a NHLer from the moment he stepped on to the ice. He was 20-33-53 in 46 regular season games here. He's the quintessential "half season" player who polishes his game in the minors and then stays in the NHL full time. You will probably see the same from Hertl and maybe Nieto (presuming there's roster space for both). I want to use Jux's terminology and call these guys "potato players", but I'm resisting the temptation.

McGinn is an different story because the only reason he played half as many games for Worcester as he did was the salary cap. In 2009-10 McGinn played in 86 regular season games. (Think about that stat for a second.) Without SJ being right up against the salary cap ceiling McGinn hardly sees Worcester at all after starting the season on SJ's roster.

Pavelski went 8-18-26 in 16 games for Worcester. You'd be hard pressed to find any definition of the word "developed" that would apply here.

Staubitz made the NHL for one reason only, his ability to fight. He was going nowhere until hockey ops in San Jose moved him to forward from defense. But despite the number of game he played under Sommer seeing as it isn't hockey ability that got Staubitz to the NHL I'm hard pressed to call him "developed" either.

Ferriero and Wingels both have the same problem: top six skill set but just short of talent to consistently play at that level in the NHL. Both would have been half season guys in the AHL if they just had a little more talent to give, but both arrived at the pro game pretty much playing at their maximum ability. Wingels has at least adapted his skill set to play bottom line roles, but he did that in SJ and not in Worcester.

So now we're left with this:
Andrew Desjardins
Frazer McLaren

One could easily argue that it was Desjardins' determination as much as Sommer's developing him, but I have no issue giving Roy the check mark here.

McLaren is a lot better hockey player than San Jose let him try to be. They wanted him as a 4th line enforcer in the NHL but had him playing as a 3rd line/top PK player in Worcester. The mixed signals really caused the kid some issues to the point where he basically gave up. I'm glad he got picked up by Toronto, and maybe they can "fix" the problem.

So for forwards, seven seasons in Worcester have developed one fourth line player. Is that anything other than pathetic?


Last edited by 210: 07-21-2013 at 08:37 AM.
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Old
07-21-2013, 08:50 AM
  #330
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So now let's look at the legitimate NHL defensemen that came from Worcester...

Justin Braun
Jason Demers
Matt Irwin
Derek Joslin

Matt Tennyson isn't on the list because I wouldn't call him a legitimate NHLer yet. We make this list next summer and he might be on it.

When you include Joslin (and a very good argument can be made that he's not a legit NHLer) that's four defensemen in seven seasons. Any of those guys top-4 NHL guys? I don't think so. A better question...if a team offered a 4th round pick for Braun, Demers, or Irwin would you make the trade? I would. And I doubt you'll find many that wouldn't.

Doug Wilson's mantra is "draft and develop". So why doesn't San Jose do that?

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07-21-2013, 10:39 AM
  #331
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When you include Joslin (and a very good argument can be made that he's not a legit NHLer) that's four defensemen in seven seasons. Any of those guys top-4 NHL guys? I don't think so. A better question...if a team offered a 4th round pick for Braun, Demers, or Irwin would you make the trade? I would. And I doubt you'll find many that wouldn't.
I wouldn't move any of those players for a 4th round pick, wouldn't move them for a 3rd round pick...depending on where the pick was, I wouldn't move Braun for a 2nd.

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07-21-2013, 10:46 AM
  #332
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I wouldn't move any of those players for a 4th round pick, wouldn't move them for a 3rd round pick...depending on where the pick was, I wouldn't move Braun for a 2nd.
You should.

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07-21-2013, 10:51 AM
  #333
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You should.
Because 4th round draft picks have so much value? Chances of that pick ever playing an NHL game is very low.

Irwin still has quite a bit to prove but Braun is a legit NHL defenseman, Demers is too.

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07-21-2013, 11:07 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
Because 4th round draft picks have so much value? Chances of that pick ever playing an NHL game is very low.

Irwin still has quite a bit to prove but Braun is a legit NHL defenseman, Demers is too.
I like them all, but they're nothing but 5-6 defensemen in the NHL and that's something San Jose has a lot of. Add Tennyson, Davison, and Acolatse into the mix and there's lots of bottom tier defensemen ready to use.

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07-21-2013, 11:18 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
I like them all, but they're nothing but 5-6 defensemen in the NHL and that's something San Jose has a lot of. Add Tennyson, Davison, and Acolatse into the mix and there's lots of bottom tier defensemen ready to use.
I don't necessarily agree with that about all three of them but even if that's the case, I'd rather hang onto them then get a 4th round pick and have to use Acolatse or Davison in the NHL but maybe that's just me.

I do think Tennyson is likely to replace Demers if he doesn't put it all back together this season.

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07-21-2013, 12:02 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
I like them all, but they're nothing but 5-6 defensemen in the NHL and that's something San Jose has a lot of. Add Tennyson, Davison, and Acolatse into the mix and there's lots of bottom tier defensemen ready to use.
i only disagree on braun. his numbers back it up. the guy can play in the top 4.

and as it stands we need both demers and braun to be full time nhl players next season, so i wouldnt trade them for a 4th purely because of depth.

id have to ice

irwin/boyle
vlasic/tennyson
stuart/hannan

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07-21-2013, 12:03 PM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 210 View Post
I like them all, but they're nothing but 5-6 defensemen in the NHL and that's something San Jose has a lot of. Add Tennyson, Davison, and Acolatse into the mix and there's lots of bottom tier defensemen ready to use.
I would make a strong case for Irwin being more of a 4-5 and Braun being a solid 4. Demers has shown in a small sample size that he's a 3-4.

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07-21-2013, 11:37 PM
  #338
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Which centers did he develop? Don't say Couture.
Well just recently, Wingels , Desi and you better believe I'll say Couture. The organization clearly sees developing centers as one of their strengths. And Shark fin soup, Wingels was drafted in the sixth and desi wasn't even drafted. Both players exceeded expectations


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07-21-2013, 11:41 PM
  #339
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I like them all, but they're nothing but 5-6 defensemen in the NHL and that's something San Jose has a lot of. Add Tennyson, Davison, and Acolatse into the mix and there's lots of bottom tier defensemen ready to use.
Yeah but it's not like any of these guys were 1sts and quite a few of them were un drafted. Their history on developing blue liners is pretty impressive. I didn't see Petrecki in your list...

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07-21-2013, 11:44 PM
  #340
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Well just recently, Wingels , Desi and you better believe I'll say Couture. The organization clearly sees developing centers as one of their strengths.
It's being generous to give developmental credit to Worcester for Couture based on a half season and Wingels based on a little over one season. I definitely agree that developing centers is seen as a strength by the organization but I doubt they credit Worcester for that.

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07-21-2013, 11:48 PM
  #341
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It's being generous to give developmental credit to Worcester for Couture based on a half season and Wingels based on a little over one season. I definitely agree that developing centers is seen as a strength by the organization but I doubt they credit Worcester for that.
Sommer does deserve some credit and the rest goes to McLellan

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07-21-2013, 11:51 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
For forwards, the ones that came from Worcester that could be called legitimate NHL players:

Logan Couture
Andrew Desjardins
Benn Ferriero
Jamie McGinn
Frazer McLaren
Joe Pavelski
Brad Staubitz
Tommy Wingels

Just looking at the list that's eight in seven seasons, so not terrible. But then you look a little deeper....

Couture was a total stud for every game he played here and there was no doubt he was a NHLer from the moment he stepped on to the ice. He was 20-33-53 in 46 regular season games here. He's the quintessential "half season" player who polishes his game in the minors and then stays in the NHL full time. You will probably see the same from Hertl and maybe Nieto (presuming there's roster space for both). I want to use Jux's terminology and call these guys "potato players", but I'm resisting the temptation.

McGinn is an different story because the only reason he played half as many games for Worcester as he did was the salary cap. In 2009-10 McGinn played in 86 regular season games. (Think about that stat for a second.) Without SJ being right up against the salary cap ceiling McGinn hardly sees Worcester at all after starting the season on SJ's roster.

Pavelski went 8-18-26 in 16 games for Worcester. You'd be hard pressed to find any definition of the word "developed" that would apply here.

Staubitz made the NHL for one reason only, his ability to fight. He was going nowhere until hockey ops in San Jose moved him to forward from defense. But despite the number of game he played under Sommer seeing as it isn't hockey ability that got Staubitz to the NHL I'm hard pressed to call him "developed" either.

Ferriero and Wingels both have the same problem: top six skill set but just short of talent to consistently play at that level in the NHL. Both would have been half season guys in the AHL if they just had a little more talent to give, but both arrived at the pro game pretty much playing at their maximum ability. Wingels has at least adapted his skill set to play bottom line roles, but he did that in SJ and not in Worcester.

So now we're left with this:
Andrew Desjardins
Frazer McLaren

One could easily argue that it was Desjardins' determination as much as Sommer's developing him, but I have no issue giving Roy the check mark here.

McLaren is a lot better hockey player than San Jose let him try to be. They wanted him as a 4th line enforcer in the NHL but had him playing as a 3rd line/top PK player in Worcester. The mixed signals really caused the kid some issues to the point where he basically gave up. I'm glad he got picked up by Toronto, and maybe they can "fix" the problem.

So for forwards, seven seasons in Worcester have developed one fourth line player. Is that anything other than pathetic?
LOL so Burke deserves all the credit eh. Give the man a raise!

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07-22-2013, 12:14 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Sommer does deserve some credit and the rest goes to McLellan
In Couture's case, I believe that's very generous considering he was an NHL player even before he went to Worcester. The only reason why he went there was because they couldn't afford him under the cap the entire season.

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LOL so Burke deserves all the credit eh. Give the man a raise!
You're just looking to pump the tires of some front office people, aren't you?

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07-22-2013, 04:56 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Yeah but it's not like any of these guys were 1sts and quite a few of them were un drafted. Their history on developing blue liners is pretty impressive. I didn't see Petrecki in your list...
Why would Petrecki appear on the list I posted?

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07-22-2013, 05:40 PM
  #345
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http://www.wicn.org/podcasts/audio/j...ll-new-episode

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07-22-2013, 07:37 PM
  #346
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Why would Petrecki appear on the list I posted?
Wasn't Petrecki a 1st rounder? If so including him would contradict what I said somewhat

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07-22-2013, 07:39 PM
  #347
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You're just looking to pump the tires of some front office people, aren't you?
Someone or a collective has to receive the credit for successful draft picks. If the argument is that Sommer had nothing to do with all these players development and they were playing at a peak level when they came into the AHL then ALL the credit goes to Burke. Give the man huge raise!

The large point being is the credit has to go somewhere.

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07-22-2013, 10:51 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Someone or a collective has to receive the credit for successful draft picks. If the argument is that Sommer had nothing to do with all these players development and they were playing at a peak level when they came into the AHL then ALL the credit goes to Burke. Give the man huge raise!

The large point being is the credit has to go somewhere.
It's not true that someone or a collective has to receive credit for successful draft picks. That's a humongous fallacy. Late round picks that make something of themselves fall pretty squarely on the player because it's pure luck to pick someone up in the late rounds. It isn't a skill and thus I won't give credit to them for it.

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07-22-2013, 11:24 PM
  #349
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It's not true that someone or a collective has to receive credit for successful draft picks. That's a humongous fallacy. Late round picks that make something of themselves fall pretty squarely on the player because it's pure luck to pick someone up in the late rounds. It isn't a skill and thus I won't give credit to them for it.
Oh really so there was no way of Burke knowing hmmm well back to Sommer I guess! Totally his doing!

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07-22-2013, 11:43 PM
  #350
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Oh really so there was no way of Burke knowing hmmm well back to Sommer I guess! Totally his doing!
You act as if this is an either/or situation. It's not. If you want to think that it's reasonable to believe that it's a skill to pluck gems with your draft choices then looking at the success rate, all GM's ought to be fired. Now if you want to give credit to an AHL coach for a player who played all of 16 games in the AHL for his development then he ought to be fired for the slew of other players that have played a hell of a lot longer there and never amounted to anything.

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