HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must use the RUMOR prefix in thread title. Proposals must contain the PROPOSAL prefix in the thread title.

Philly and Ottawa

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-21-2013, 11:30 AM
  #176
JackStraw
Moving much too slow
 
JackStraw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 5,446
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Yeah I think that Wiercioch is highly underrated in this topic. Again, I don't think he's necessarily better than Schultz, but he has outperformed him at the same level whenever they've both been there (WCHA when Wiercioch was 18 and 19 and now in the NHL).



I don't think you would have a problem up front without Voracek. You have plenty of talent there as was already mentioned in a previous post (and I believe Schenn can also play the wing, no?) but on top of that it gives you a PMD with a lot of upside who is still young in Wiercioch (don't know why he would be limited to a #4 unless you're only talking about this year) and I don't see why Bishop would be considered a stop gap...most see him at least as a serviceable starter in the NHL moving forward with 1A potential. His numbers this year and in the AHL have both been very good to exceptional.

But again you know your team better than I do. I am not here to argue about it...I just don't want this brushed off as though it's not decent value or I'm insulting the Flyers with the offers. They are legitimate offers because I feel like Bishop and Wiercioch both have good value. If you don't think it's what your team needs right now then that's another thing altogether and I completely understand.
We DO have a problem up front without Voracek. Plenty of talent at center, not wing. Briere is better at center but is now playing wing solely out of necessity. And he's not having a good year. Schenn has been tried at wing but it didn't go well. Same with Couturier. Giroux and Carter were also both tried at wing. These guys are all natural centers. You can't just say they have talent and expect them to perform well at wing.

JackStraw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:30 AM
  #177
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 38,739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Yeah I think that Wiercioch is highly underrated in this topic. Again, I don't think he's necessarily better than Schultz, but he has outperformed him at the same level whenever they've both been there (WCHA when Wiercioch was 18 and 19 and now in the NHL).



I don't think you would have a problem up front without Voracek. You have plenty of talent there as was already mentioned in a previous post (and I believe Schenn can also play the wing, no?) but on top of that it gives you a PMD with a lot of upside who is still young in Wiercioch (don't know why he would be limited to a #4 unless you're only talking about this year) and I don't see why Bishop would be considered a stop gap...most see him at least as a serviceable starter in the NHL moving forward with 1A potential. His numbers this year and in the AHL have both been very good to exceptional.
Wiercioch is not the PMD we need. Hell, he needs to finish a season or two before we can even decide anything on that. Edler would even be a better option over Wiercioch and would be closer value with Voracek. And no, Schenn is not Voracek at all. Schenn is a goal scorer. Voracek is more of a guy that can use his body very well and make very good passes, closer to Jagr-esque in some ways (he's not Jagr, but the big body and hard to take off the puck to make chances happen). We don't need "serviceable". Young goalie we would look at, like Lehner, Bernier or Schneider are way more than just serviceable. They are keys to teams to fix goaltending issues. Bishop won't be able to do that for this team and in the future. We're done with the 1A ******** anyways. Our management is in the mindset of a true #1, which is why we went for Bryz, and right now, I don't think management would really want anything less.

SolidSnakeUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:31 AM
  #178
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 15,473
vCash: 500
Re-reading through the thread, here's what I think.

Briere for Bishop (+) is probably reasonable if OTT is looking to compete over the next few seasons and still sees Lehner as the future (and Anderson as the present).

Read for Wiercioch (+) might make sense. It doesn't seem like it is something that either fan base is happy with, which either means it fits neither teams needs (seems unlikely) or is closer to fair value.

There's no reasonable offer that Ottawa can or will make for Voracek or Simmonds. That doesn't mean they don't have assets that could be put into a package, it means that the Flyers would want pieces that Ottawa wouldn't move in a quantity they couldn't stomach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
These are the types of statements that really irk me.

Other teams prospects = no room for growth

Our prospects = developing and most likely going to reach or exceed potential

I understand that you're far more intimate with your own prospects but players from other organizations can grow and develop as well.
The problem, I think, is that the two players in question (Simmonds and Voraceks) are themselves still developing players with potential to grow. Trying to find fair value for them with even less proven pieces is very difficult because you need to try to project both the "proven" asset and the "future" assets going forward.

Jack de la Hoya is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:34 AM
  #179
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 38,739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
can we just agree to trade bishop for either read or briere and call it a day? Why do we have to even bother bringing up guys like voracek when it's clearly unrealistic.
I agree with this statement. More Briere than Read for Bishop, but yeah, same point.

SolidSnakeUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:35 AM
  #180
SenzZen
I Ain't Even Mad
 
SenzZen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I'm not particularly interested in getting into the Wiercioch vs. Schultz debate, but it was a Senators fan who first questioned whether Voracek was any more proven than Bishop or Wiercioch...
In that case, I agree. On all counts.

But I wanted the guy I quoted to clarify his post for me.

SenzZen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:35 AM
  #181
Curtinho
Spero Meliora
 
Curtinho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,924
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Wiercioch is not the PMD we need. Hell, he needs to finish a season or two before we can even decide anything on that. Edler would even be a better option over Wiercioch and would be closer value with Voracek. And no, Schenn is not Voracek at all. Schenn is a goal scorer. Voracek is more of a guy that can use his body very well and make very good passes, closer to Jagr-esque in some ways (he's not Jagr, but the big body and hard to take off the puck to make chances happen). We don't need "serviceable". Young goalie we would look at, like Lehner, Bernier or Schneider are way more than just serviceable. They are keys to teams to fix goaltending issues. Bishop won't be able to do that for this team and in the future. We're done with the 1A ******** anyways. Our management is in the mindset of a true #1, which is why we went for Bryz, and right now, I don't think management would really want anything less.
So what makes Schneider or Bernier better than Bishop? His numbers are not dissimilar to theirs and, again, a lot of people in the hockey world are rumoured to be high on him as a potential starter (just like Schneider and Bernier...who have been around their teams longer obviously, but players don't develop at the same rate or linearly).

Anyway, this is getting off-topic. Obviously...again...you guys don't see value in the Ottawa players (especially Wiercioch) where we do. So we can just end this here.

Curtinho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:39 AM
  #182
SnS
Registered User
 
SnS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 500
Awards:
The experiment with Schenn on the wing has been a disaster. It hasn't worked. He's still much more comfortable at C.

Voracek has been our best forward over the course of this season, why would we entertain an idea of dealing him at all?

Read for Bishop is a non-starter from me too. I don't want to trade someone like Read for a goalie, isn't Bishop a FA after this season and when Anderson comes back isn't he the third goalie on the depth chart in Ottawa?

__________________
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/nemesis15/SnS-Sig.gif

Props to Nemesis for the signature, and HC for the avatar.
SnS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:41 AM
  #183
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 38,739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
So what makes Schneider or Bernier better than Bishop? His numbers are not dissimilar to theirs and, again, a lot of people in the hockey world are rumoured to be high on him as a potential starter (just like Schneider and Bernier...who have been around their teams longer obviously, but players don't develop at the same rate or linearly).

Anyway, this is getting off-topic. Obviously...again...you guys don't see value in the Ottawa players (especially Wiercioch) where we do. So we can just end this here.
I see the value in Wiercioch, but he's no where near Simmonds, Read or Voracek by himself.

SolidSnakeUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:42 AM
  #184
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 15,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
Read for Bishop is a non-starter from me too. I don't want to trade someone like Read for a goalie, isn't Bishop a FA after this season and when Anderson comes back isn't he the third goalie on the depth chart in Ottawa?
I believe he is RFA with one-year to UFA status.

Jack de la Hoya is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:42 AM
  #185
Micklebot
Moderator
I bee-beard'lieve
 
Micklebot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 19,166
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
The experiment with Schenn on the wing has been a disaster. It hasn't worked. He's still much more comfortable at C.

Voracek has been our best forward over the course of this season, why would we entertain an idea of dealing him at all?

Read for Bishop is a non-starter from me too. I don't want to trade someone like Read for a goalie, isn't Bishop a FA after this season and when Anderson comes back isn't he the third goalie on the depth chart in Ottawa?
Bishop will be RFA at seasons end. As for 3rd on the depth chart, he may still get the back-up duties if he's still here, but Lehner is probably the future.

Micklebot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:43 AM
  #186
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 38,739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
Bishop will be RFA at seasons end. As for 3rd on the depth chart, he may still get the back-up duties if he's still here, but Lehner is probably the future.
Probably? I thought it was for sure he would be the future?

SolidSnakeUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:46 AM
  #187
Qward
Because! That's why!
 
Qward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Behind you, look out
Posts: 14,455
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
The experiment with Schenn on the wing has been a disaster. It hasn't worked. He's still much more comfortable at C.

Voracek has been our best forward over the course of this season, why would we entertain an idea of dealing him at all?

Read for Bishop is a non-starter from me too. I don't want to trade someone like Read for a goalie, isn't Bishop a FA after this season and when Anderson comes back isn't he the third goalie on the depth chart in Ottawa?
This does not affect his trade value. It simply means the Sens have three strong goaltenders.

Qward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:47 AM
  #188
Curtinho
Spero Meliora
 
Curtinho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,924
vCash: 500
I don't understand the depth chart thing. Why does that matter? If you have Hasek, Roy and Brodeur on the same team does it matter which one is 3rd? They're still great goalies (disclaimer: I am not comparing Bishop, Lehner or Anderson to any of those goalies just pointing out that Ottawa has 3 NHL ready goalies it just so happens that Lehner and Anderson are better).

Curtinho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:47 AM
  #189
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 15,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
This does not affect his trade value. It simply means the Sens have three strong goaltenders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I don't understand the depth chart thing. Why does that matter? If you have Hasek, Roy and Brodeur on the same team does it matter which one is 3rd? They're still great goalies (disclaimer: I am not comparing Bishop, Lehner or Anderson to any of those goalies just pointing out that Ottawa has 3 NHL ready goalies it just so happens that Lehner and Anderson are better).
Bishop is unlikely to sign a multi-year extension if he believes that Lehner is the future and Anderson is the present, right?

A team that covets him and has a need could reasonably assume he might be UFA after next season.

Jack de la Hoya is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:48 AM
  #190
SnS
Registered User
 
SnS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
This does not affect his trade value. It simply means the Sens have three strong goaltenders.
It doesn't matter, goalies still traditionally don't have strong trade value.

Read is a very valuable player on his contract, and his ability to play all three forward positions as well as the point on the powerplay.

I wouldn't move Voracek at all.
I wouldn't move Read at all.

SnS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:51 AM
  #191
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 15,473
vCash: 500
If the Flyers believe Bishop is a sure-fire starter, why not offer him a one-year O.S. up to $3.3 million (compensation = 2014 2nd)?

Maybe OTT matches (I don't know whether they would want to pay their backup that much), but if so, he's a UFA after next year.

EDIT: Heck, you could probably do it with a $1.6 O.S. (3rd). OTT matches and can't trade him for a year, so he hits UFA.

Jack de la Hoya is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 12:05 PM
  #192
MoreGore
Registered User
 
MoreGore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,580
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Maybe this is a better question to Sens fans. INDIVIDUALLY, what are Weir and Bishop worth in terms of picks. Early 2nd? Late 2nd? I think by knowing this, it will be easier to judge things. Because some lake it seem like both are worth 1st rounders. And if that's the case, then there is no deal to be made here
Well basically speaking, how many players per draft year become full time NHLers? 45? Based on that I would say they are both late first rounders.

MoreGore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 12:07 PM
  #193
spartachris
Registered User
 
spartachris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 105
vCash: 500
Flyer fans want a top pairing offensive Puck moving D....

Briere is the main guy on this thread that the flyer fans want gone?

We don't want briere and we don't have other top D left to offer besides Weir......

Lehner is the future and Bishop is trade bait.

Can you understand that we would want your best players and at a fair value and not a guy like Briere.

Try Flordia for Cambell thats the kind of defence guy you seem to need I would think,Yandell, J-Bo but you have to give to get.

spartachris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 12:10 PM
  #194
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 15,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartachris View Post
Flyer fans want a top pairing offensive Puck moving D....

Briere is the main guy on this thread that the flyer fans want gone?

We don't want briere and we don't have other top D left to offer besides Weir......

Lehner is the future and Bishop is trade bait.

Can you understand that we would want your best players and at a fair value and not a guy like Briere.

Try Flordia for Cambell thats the kind of defence guy you seem to need I would think,Yandell, J-Bo but you have to give to get.
1. an OTT fan started this thread.

2. No one has suggested that we can get a top-pairing OFD from OTT.

3. No one has suggested that we can get a top-pairing OFD by using Briere.

Jack de la Hoya is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 12:15 PM
  #195
danishh
Registered User
 
danishh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: YOW
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,810
vCash: 50
ben bishop RFA this year, 1yr to UFA
33gp, 13-12-3, 2.65, .910
*last 2 years: 9-7-2, 2.55, .916

matt read 1yr left on contract, 1yr to UFA
103gp, 31-30-61

maybe it's just me, but i do believe they are in the same value range.


Last edited by SnS: 03-21-2013 at 12:22 PM.
danishh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 12:21 PM
  #196
SnS
Registered User
 
SnS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartachris View Post
Flyer fans want a top pairing offensive Puck moving D....

Briere is the main guy on this thread that the flyer fans want gone?

We don't want briere and we don't have other top D left to offer besides Weir......

Lehner is the future and Bishop is trade bait.

Can you understand that we would want your best players and at a fair value and not a guy like Briere.

Try Flordia for Cambell thats the kind of defence guy you seem to need I would think,Yandell, J-Bo but you have to give to get.
Can you understand that Weir isn't worth Voracek? Bishop isn't worth Read from a Flyers stand point?

The Flyers need a TRUE and proven #1, neither of which you're offering.

We have pieces, just not willing to move them for a Bishop type player.

Admittingly, I don't know everything about Weir, but he's a top pairing potential d-man. But we're not in the position to move someone like Voracek for that or Read for that, for that matter.

SnS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 12:25 PM
  #197
SnS
Registered User
 
SnS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
ben bishop RFA this year, 1yr to UFA
33gp, 13-12-3, 2.65, .910
*last 2 years: 9-7-2, 2.55, .916

matt read 1yr left on contract, 1yr to UFA
103gp, 31-30-61

maybe it's just me, but i do believe they are in the same value range.
Goalies, just don't historically have the same value. I wouldn't trade Read for a goalie. It's just not smart from an organizational standpoint, IMO.

It's not to say Bishop is a no-value-having-scrub, because he has value. It's just goalies overall don't have the same value as players typically.

I'd be pretty pissed off as a Flyers fan, if we dealt Matt Read for Ben Bishop.

SnS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 12:26 PM
  #198
orange is better
Lattelepjandi lopatr
 
orange is better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Reykjavík
Country: Iceland
Posts: 10,892
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
People need to pump the brakes on Bishop. He was traded for a 2nd and since then, he's played 20 NHL games with varying degrees of success. He's now 26 years old. The idea of him being a centerpiece for Simmonds or Voracek is laughable.

Ditto Wiercioch. He's a 2nd round pick who's been mediocre in lower levels and all of the sudden because he's had 5 points in his last 3 games while playing the easiest minutes on the Senators, he's supposed to be a headliner in a trade for a power forward who has potted 28 goals and is on pace for a 30-30 season this year or a dynamic #1 RW who's been a point per game over his last 56 games.

Including Cowen makes the offers a little bit better, but if the best you can offer is a 2009 draftee who was OK @ the NHL level then sustained a serious hip injury that he's yet to come back from, then it's still not really that close.
I like weircioch a lot and I think bishop could help even out our goaltending situation, but Voracek is beginning to really show his immense talent level. He's leading a team that's playing below average this year, with a lot of players struggling, in scoring and is still only 23. He's been over a PPG for a while now, dating back to the last few months of last season and he's still getting better. He's proficient in all 3 zones and plays in all situations. His value is very high especially considering his cap hit.

Why would we trade a guy who is still so young and already arguably our 2nd best player, a top line winger unless we're getting a defenseman back who can play on our top pairing right now? We'd be selling low and getting rid of a guy who's been great for us without replacing him with anything that makes us better than our team would be if we were just to keep jake.

I think Voracek is getting close to untouchable for Philly management, and I don't think he's moved unless its for a piece that vastly improves our defense right now and for the forseeable future, just as jake would do on the wing for whatever team he's going to.

orange is better is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 12:27 PM
  #199
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 14,162
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
ben bishop RFA this year, 1yr to UFA
33gp, 13-12-3, 2.65, .910
*last 2 years: 9-7-2, 2.55, .916

matt read 1yr left on contract, 1yr to UFA
103gp, 31-30-61

maybe it's just me, but i do believe they are in the same value range.
Forwards consistently have more market value than goalies.

Anyway, you don't see a lot of teams shopping Matt Reads.

You do however see a bunch of people potentially shopping a Bishop in the upcoming years when you look at Bernier and Schneider's situations.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 12:50 PM
  #200
BK201
Registered User
 
BK201's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 10,031
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Forwards consistently have more market value than goalies.

Anyway, you don't see a lot of teams shopping Matt Reads.

You do however see a bunch of people potentially shopping a Bishop in the upcoming years when you look at Bernier and Schneider's situations.
This is true. Goaltenders never get a lot in trades hence why Lu is still in Vancouver. Well and his contract xD but Philly just as bad with Bryz.

BK201 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:16 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.