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Old
03-21-2013, 12:53 PM
  #201
Cujomi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Forwards consistently have more market value than goalies.

Anyway, you don't see a lot of teams shopping Matt Reads.

You do however see a bunch of people potentially shopping a Bishop in the upcoming years when you look at Bernier and Schneider's situations.
It seems kind of backwards. In terms of individual impact on a game Goalies > Defencemen > Forwards and yet market value goes Forwards > Defencemen > Goalies. It seems backwards.

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Old
03-21-2013, 01:07 PM
  #202
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Message to Flyers fan

Wouldnt you be interested in a mix of Dennis Wideman and Alex Edler?

Wiercioch is a young 6'5 puck moving defenseman. He is very mobile and can dangle if needed. He seems confident with the puck and his offensive game is not too far of D. Rundblad. He has a hard shot. He's a pleasant surprise and he's learning from one of the best PMD of the decade, Sergei Gonchar, who helped Karlsson.

He needs some refining to his defensive game, for sure. But he's a promising #4 PMD at least.

Is he then a starting point to acquire Read or Voracek?

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03-21-2013, 01:18 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by simplefan View Post
He needs some refining to his defensive game, for sure. But he's a promising #4 PMD at least.

Is he then a starting point to acquire Read or Voracek?
To be honest, you sort of distilled the point nicely. A promising #4PMD with #2 (but admittedly not #1) upside is not a starting point for Voracek.

Honestly, there isn't a player on Ottawa who is a logical starting point for Voracek. There are guys who are worth more than him, of course, but there is no player who currently has less value than Voracek who would make a logical starting point. Even the top youngsters (Silfverberg, Zibanejad, Cowen, etc.) aren't centerpieces that the Flyers would find appealing--the former two because their ceilings aren't obviously higher, the latter because he is too similar to what the team already has).

It is a starting point for Read...for some Flyers fans, but not for others, and not for most Senators fans.

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03-21-2013, 01:19 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
It seems kind of backwards. In terms of individual impact on a game Goalies > Defencemen > Forwards and yet market value goes Forwards > Defencemen > Goalies. It seems backwards.
I don't make the rules.

Also I think actual market value is

Defensemen > Forwards > Defensemen > Goalies

Defensemen, at consistent levels, are extremely rare increasing their value.
Forwards are generally consistent and easy to predict making them valuable on the market.
Defensemen, at inconsistent levels, are dime a dozen but still necessary to log minutes.
Goaltenders are part of the smallest collective of necessary players on any NHL team, and only 30 are needed really league wide creating an almost permanent surplus on the market.

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03-21-2013, 01:20 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplefan View Post
Wouldnt you be interested in a mix of Dennis Wideman and Alex Edler?

Wiercioch is a young 6'5 puck moving defenseman. He is very mobile and can dangle if needed. He seems confident with the puck and his offensive game is not too far of D. Rundblad. He has a hard shot. He's a pleasant surprise and he's learning from one of the best PMD of the decade, Sergei Gonchar, who helped Karlsson.

He needs some refining to his defensive game, for sure. But he's a promising #4 PMD at least.

Is he then a starting point to acquire Read or Voracek?
Not for Voracek. His PPG this season makes his cap hit a bargain.

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Old
03-21-2013, 02:49 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Not for Voracek. His PPG this season makes his cap hit a bargain.
Totally agree....and yet look at this:

Jake...$4.25 mill has 31 points...so 1 point costs $137,000
Read...$900,000 has 14 points...so 1 point costs only $64,000

Read is a STEAL!!!! As I said before...Read had the 6th best $ vs points ratio in the league. That's bang for the buck!!!

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Old
03-21-2013, 05:03 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
I get the want for a bigger sample size. I mainly meant the mediocre part.

Wiercioch has only had 2 mediocre seasons since being drafted. His first AHL season, which was an adjustment season; and his 2nd AHL season was OK but he had a serious injury.

Also, he called him a 2nd rounder as if it matters.

I am in no way saying Wiercioch should be a center piece for Voracek.
Was I wrong in saying he was mediocre prior to this year? He wasn't really impressive in the USHL, he wasn't all that impressive @ the Univ of Denver (and he was definitely mediocre in his 2nd season there), and he followed that up w/ 2 mediocre AHL seasons. Excuse me if this extremely small sample size of good play doesn't have me convinced that he's the next great young defenseman.

Also, the fact that he was a 2nd rounder does matter. When you're dealing w/ young players who have yet to prove themselves @ the NHL level for a sufficient period of time, pedigree matters. Wiercioch was never thought of as an offensive dynamo or 1st pairing defender, as proven by his draft pedigree.

The funny thing about all this is I actually like Wiercioch, I just think the value you're attaching to a guy after < 30 games is ridiculous.

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Old
03-21-2013, 05:06 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Disclaimer :

Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but wanted to say this :

I wouldnt do either deal in the OP as a Sens fan, certainly not the one with Cowen.

Also, Cowen IS proven in the NHL. He has shown that he is (at least) a top 4 Dman, and has top pairing potential.

To Flyers fans saying they would want to see how Cowen plays when coming back from injury, that is certainly fair, and I completely understand that. However, if, when he comes back, he plays like a top 4 Dman (let alone if he plays like a top 2 Dman), he will cost a lot more to acquire than he would now, and he would cost a fair price as it is now. If he comes back and plays like a top 2 Dman, he likely doesn't move at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
What is a realistic comparable for Cowen's ceiling? Not his role, but a player whose game he is expected to emulate.
Asking the guy who said he wouldn't trade Wiercioch, Bishop, and a 3rd for Voracek or Simmonds for the "realistic comparable" for Cowen's ceiling probably isn't the best idea. At least not if you want a realistic answer.

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Old
03-21-2013, 05:19 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I don't make the rules.

Also I think actual market value is

Defensemen > Forwards > Defensemen > Goalies

Defensemen, at consistent levels, are extremely rare increasing their value.
Forwards are generally consistent and easy to predict making them valuable on the market.
Defensemen, at inconsistent levels, are dime a dozen but still necessary to log minutes.
Goaltenders are part of the smallest collective of necessary players on any NHL team, and only 30 are needed really league wide creating an almost permanent surplus on the market.
Top end forwards are the most coveted players in the league and they have the most value hands down. You could say Forward > Defencemen > Forwards > Defencemen > Goalies...but in reality it's just Forwards > Defencemen > Goalies assuming equal "talent level". I mean the top 25 cap hits in the league only 5 are defencemen and 3 are goalies.

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Old
03-21-2013, 05:23 PM
  #210
WeekendAtBernies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Luke. I've seen a lot of both thank very much, and yes Wier is better. The Flyers don't have anyone near Wier in their system

Wiercioch is essentially a super sized Justin Schultz (more defensive potential for sure)
Statistical comparison:
Time on Ice: Schenn (20:00) > Wier (15:18)
Corsi Relative: Schenn (8.7) > Wier (7.2)
Corsi Relative QoC: Schenn (.960, 1st on team) > Wier (-1.387, dead last on team)
Offensive Zone Starts: Schenn (49.1%) > Wier (58.4%)
Even-Strength Goals: Schenn (2) = Wier (2)
Even-Strength Points: Schenn (7) < Wier (8)

The advantage of Wier over Schenn can pretty much be boiled down to this: He plays the powerplay.

Schenn plays more TOI, faces the toughest competition, starts more in the defensive zone, plays the PK, has a better Corsi, throws significantly more hits, blocks significantly more shots.

Do I need to go on? As of right now, Luke Schenn >> Wiercioch and it's not even close.

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03-21-2013, 05:34 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Statistical comparison:
Time on Ice: Schenn (20:00) > Wier (15:18)
Corsi Relative: Schenn (8.7) > Wier (7.2)
Corsi Relative QoC: Schenn (.960, 1st on team) > Wier (-1.387, dead last on team)
Offensive Zone Starts: Schenn (49.1%) > Wier (58.4%)
Even-Strength Goals: Schenn (2) = Wier (2)
Even-Strength Points: Schenn (7) < Wier (8)

The advantage of Wier over Schenn can pretty much be boiled down to this: He plays the powerplay.

Schenn plays more TOI, faces the toughest competition, starts more in the defensive zone, plays the PK, has a better Corsi, throws significantly more hits, blocks significantly more shots.

Do I need to go on? As of right now, Luke Schenn >> Wiercioch and it's not even close.
Don't get too upset that guy argues things like this with everyone.

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Old
03-21-2013, 05:44 PM
  #212
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Ott and Philly dont make good trading partners since both are in a retool.

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Old
03-21-2013, 05:51 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by magix View Post
Ott and Philly dont make good trading partners since both are in a retool.
Eh, that's only sort of true.

OTT clearly has an extra goalie, an area of need for the Flyers.

OTT seems to have defensive prospects, while the Flyers have a need.

OTT is currently safely projected to make the playoffs; the Flyers are basically already out.

I think there's a deal to be made, but it is smaller than HF usually allows for, and probably only if OTT is a traditional buyer.


Last edited by Jack de la Hoya: 03-21-2013 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Edit to clarify.
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Old
03-21-2013, 05:53 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Offensive Zone Starts: Schenn (49.1%) > Wier (58.4%)
All this shows is that one guy is an offensive player and the other is a defensive player.

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Old
03-21-2013, 05:55 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
...oh I really hope some Edmonton fans see this.

He's a real find for Ottawa if that is true. So I assume you hold him more highly valued than Cowen?
I value Cowen higher than both Schultz and Wiercioch

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
As a Sens fan, I can't in good conscience endorse this.
Why not? Seriously. I'm going to call you out Bonk. You say a lot of things like that, like ''this is the way it is'', and you don't offer any explaination or reasoning.

They are the same age. Wiercioch put up a point per game as an 18 year old freshman in college. Schultz was still in the BCHL. That season is more impressive than anything Schultz did after that in college at 20+ years old.

Wiercioch had some injuries and didn't adjust to the pro game smoothly at first. Would Schultz have done any better in the AHL at the same time? Not likely. Wiercioch has come around though and is showing that skill level.

Wiercioch is bigger and better defensively. They have similar offensive impacts, maybe slight edge to Schultz but the difference isn't big. I don't know why anyone would say otherwise? What has Schultz done to prove he's better than Wiercioch? Been a highly sought after UFA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No. Wiercioch is not better than Luke Schenn.

Could he be down the road? Possibly.

I don't think it's going to happen though. Luke Schenn's reputation on HFBoards has nothing to do with how he actually plays.

Seriously...I'm ****ing dumbfounded by that notion. Wiercioch is not better than Luke Schenn.
Look, maybe Schenn has been awesome this season in Philly. Honestly don't know.

But I've been told COUNTLESS times in this thread that this season is not a sufficient sample size to evaluate a player (Philly fans referring to Wiercioch). So, if we base our evaluation of Schenn on how he played in Toronto, he is an AWFUL defenseman. He played the 6th or 7th least minutes per game on a team that had serious defensive woes and could have used a good defensive d-man (and rightfully so).

But if you're telling me that Schenn has played like a legit top 3 D-man this season, than OK, he's better than Wiercioch at the moment.

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03-21-2013, 05:56 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
OTT seems to have defensive prospects, while the Flyers have a few extra centers.
Are you implying Ottawa needs centers? Because Ottawa is basically set at center in the NHL and has a few decent center prospects.

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Old
03-21-2013, 06:07 PM
  #217
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Are you implying Ottawa needs centers? Because Ottawa is basically set at center in the NHL and has a few decent center prospects.
Fair enough. I just threw that in there.

Well, it really seems to be a question of whether Ottawa is a "buyer" at the deadline. If not, there's probably not deal to be made between the two teams.

The Flyers can find a goalie prospect / option elsewhere, or submit an offersheet to Bishop in the offseason.

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Old
03-21-2013, 06:07 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
All this shows is that one guy is an offensive player and the other is a defensive player.
If you take that stat by itself, maybe that's the conclusion you arrive at.

When you combine that with the quality of competition and the fact that they're almost dead even in even-strength scoring, you arrive at the conclusion that despite getting less offensive opportunities at even strength, Schenn is just as productive. You also see that Wiercioch is basically a 3rd pairing defenseman beating up on the 4th lines of the NHL while Schenn is succeeding against the Malkins, Crosbys, Nashs, and Stamkos of the world, but who really cares about that silly stuff anyway?

At the end of the day, Wiercioch's greatest value to your team right now is on the powerplay. If Karlsson were healthy, I imagine that his value would be severely diminished. As it would be in Philadelphia, where we run a 1 defenseman #1 powerplay. Wiercioch wouldn't be displacing Timonen, Giroux, or Voracek (the guys who run the "points" of our powerplay), so he'd essentially be another 3rd pairing defenseman who would possibly help our 2nd powerplay unit. Not all that valuable to us.

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03-21-2013, 06:11 PM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Statistical comparison:
Time on Ice: Schenn (20:00) > Wier (15:18)
Corsi Relative: Schenn (8.7) > Wier (7.2)
Corsi Relative QoC: Schenn (.960, 1st on team) > Wier (-1.387, dead last on team)
Offensive Zone Starts: Schenn (49.1%) > Wier (58.4%)
Even-Strength Goals: Schenn (2) = Wier (2)
Even-Strength Points: Schenn (7) < Wier (8)

The advantage of Wier over Schenn can pretty much be boiled down to this: He plays the powerplay.

Schenn plays more TOI, faces the toughest competition, starts more in the defensive zone, plays the PK, has a better Corsi, throws significantly more hits, blocks significantly more shots.

Do I need to go on? As of right now, Luke Schenn >> Wiercioch and it's not even close.
Wiercioch
Goals Against: 6 (1st among Sens defensemen)
Goals Against/60 min of ice time: 1.15 (1st among Sens defensemen)
On ice save %: 964 (1st among Sens defensemen)
Corsi: 10.34
Giveaways: 9 (1st among Sens defensemen)

Schenn
Goals Against: 19 (5th among Flyers defensemen)
Goals Against/60 min of ice time: 2.43 (3rd among Flyers defensemen and more than twice Wiercioch's amount)
On ice save %: 904 (4th among Flyers defensemen)
Corsi: 4.47
Giveaways: 18 (6th among Flyers defensemen and twice Wiercioh's amount)




Flyers and Sens d-men = 10+ games

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Old
03-21-2013, 06:20 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Was I wrong in saying he was mediocre prior to this year? He wasn't really impressive in the USHL, he wasn't all that impressive @ the Univ of Denver (and he was definitely mediocre in his 2nd season there), and he followed that up w/ 2 mediocre AHL seasons. Excuse me if this extremely small sample size of good play doesn't have me convinced that he's the next great young defenseman.

Also, the fact that he was a 2nd rounder does matter. When you're dealing w/ young players who have yet to prove themselves @ the NHL level for a sufficient period of time, pedigree matters. Wiercioch was never thought of as an offensive dynamo or 1st pairing defender, as proven by his draft pedigree.

The funny thing about all this is I actually like Wiercioch, I just think the value you're attaching to a guy after < 30 games is ridiculous.
Agree with most of what you said but the stuff about him being unimpressive at UofDen is just flat out wrong. It was because of his performance there that he got consideration for Team Canada. His 2nd season wasn't as good but he was playing one leg and pretty much just wheeled out for the PP.

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Old
03-21-2013, 06:30 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Wiercioch
Goals Against: 6 (1st among Sens defensemen)
Goals Against/60 min of ice time: 1.15 (1st among Sens defensemen)
On ice save %: 964 (1st among Sens defensemen)
Corsi: 10.34
Giveaways: 9 (1st among Sens defensemen)

Schenn
Goals Against: 19 (5th among Flyers defensemen)
Goals Against/60 min of ice time: 2.43 (3rd among Flyers defensemen and more than twice Wiercioch's amount)
On ice save %: 904 (4th among Flyers defensemen)
Corsi: 4.47
Giveaways: 18 (6th among Flyers defensemen and twice Wiercioh's amount)

Flyers and Sens d-men = 10+ games
Ah, so you resort to the luck and team based stats to try and refute my argument, eh? Why use Corsi by itself when you have corsi relative? Corsi by itself tells you nothing, it's like comparing +/- across teams. Corsi relative is a much more useful measure. Oh right, you didn't post that because it favors Schenn.

And again, why post just GAON/60? Why not look at goal differential?

When Schenn is on the ice, per 60 minutes his team's goal differential is +0.13. When he's off the ice, it's -1.05, so in total, the team is +1.18 better when Schenn is on the ice.

When Wiercioch is on the ice, per 60 minutes, his team's goal differential is +0.38. When he's off the ice, it's +0.28, so in total, the team is +0.10 better when Wiercioch is on the ice.

The edge in goal differential goes to Schenn.

The one redeeming thing about your post though is that you showed the on-ice save %, which is a stat that's used to show which players are lucky / unlucky. Wiercioch's ridiculous on-ice save % shows that he's been lucky and that his low goals against are a product of his unsustainable / lucky on-ice save %, so we should expect some regression.

As far as giveaways go, would you care to post the list of defensemen who have led the league in giveaways the past few years? Last year's top 30 is like a who's who of elite defensemen (Subban, Karlsson (overrated), Phaneuf, Burns, Yandle, Bieksa, Doughty, Chara, Hamhuis, Girardi, etc.). If you were trying to use giveaways in a meaningful way, you might want to post takeaways/giveaways. Luke Schenn has 8 takeaways to 18 giveaways, while Wiercioch has 1 takeaway to 9 giveaways. Edge: Luke Schenn.

Anything else? Or can we wrap this discussion up and agree that Schenn >> Wiercioch???

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03-21-2013, 06:51 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Ah, so you resort to the luck and team based stats to try and refute my argument, eh? Why use Corsi by itself when you have corsi relative? Corsi by itself tells you nothing, it's like comparing +/- across teams. Corsi relative is a much more useful measure. Oh right, you didn't post that because it favors Schenn.
And you didn't post other things because they favor Wiercioch.

Rel Corsi does not prove Schenn > Wiercioch at Corsi. It only proves there is a bigger gap between Schenn and his teammates than there is between Wiercioch and his teammates. As the Sens are a much better team, that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
And again, why post just GAON/60? Why not look at goal differential?

When Schenn is on the ice, per 60 minutes his team's goal differential is +0.13. When he's off the ice, it's -1.05, so in total, the team is +1.18 better when Schenn is on the ice.

When Wiercioch is on the ice, per 60 minutes, his team's goal differential is +0.38. When he's off the ice, it's +0.28, so in total, the team is +0.10 better when Wiercioch is on the ice.

The edge in goal differential goes to Schenn.
All that shows is how awful Philly is and how decent Schenn has been.

Ottawa is one of the best defensive teams, and Wiericoch is still above average on his team. Schenn is above average on a bad team. Whoopteedoo

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
The one redeeming thing about your post though is that you showed the on-ice save %, which is a stat that's used to show which players are lucky / unlucky. Wiercioch's ridiculous on-ice save % shows that he's been lucky and that his low goals against are a product of his unsustainable / lucky on-ice save %, so we should expect some regression.
It's not luck. Wiercioch contributes to the high save percentage by only allowing low percentage shots against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
As far as giveaways go, would you care to post the list of defensemen who have led the league in giveaways the past few years? Last year's top 30 is like a who's who of elite defensemen (Subban, Karlsson (overrated), Phaneuf, Burns, Yandle, Bieksa, Doughty, Chara, Hamhuis, Girardi, etc.). If you were trying to use giveaways in a meaningful way, you might want to post takeaways/giveaways. Luke Schenn has 8 takeaways to 18 giveaways, while Wiercioch has 1 takeaway to 9 giveaways. Edge: Luke Schenn.

Anything else? Or can we wrap this discussion up and agree that Schenn >> Wiercioch???
Only posted giveaways because you mentioned hits, which are even more meaningless. A lot more meaningless. Giveaways are usually an indication of how much a player has the puck (not all the time, like Kovalchuk, who is just reckless with it). So usually, offensive d-man have high giveaways. Well, Wiercioch doesn't because he manages the puck so well.





And despite all this, I agree with you, Schenn has been better than Wiercioch. That said,
1-Philly AND Ottawa fans are underrating Wiercioch. He is good defensively, terrific offensively and the Flyers have nothing like him. He'd be a great fit.
2-As mentioned above, I was basing my evaluation of Schenn on what he did in Toronto (he was horrible) because I hadn't seen Schenn this season, and most importantly, many posters have pointed out how this season is not a sufficient sample size to evaluate a player. Why doesn't this apply to Schenn?

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Old
03-21-2013, 06:55 PM
  #223
MAK19
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Also Bernie, as Goals Against is team stat, I posted Wiercioch and Schenn's rank on their respective teams. Not just looking at pure numbers. Wiercioch is 1st, Schenn is 3rd. Hence, Wiercioch is awesome.

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03-21-2013, 08:15 PM
  #224
Tripod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I value Cowen higher than both Schultz and Wiercioch



Why not? Seriously. I'm going to call you out Bonk. You say a lot of things like that, like ''this is the way it is'', and you don't offer any explaination or reasoning.

They are the same age. Wiercioch put up a point per game as an 18 year old freshman in college. Schultz was still in the BCHL. That season is more impressive than anything Schultz did after that in college at 20+ years old.

Wiercioch had some injuries and didn't adjust to the pro game smoothly at first. Would Schultz have done any better in the AHL at the same time? Not likely. Wiercioch has come around though and is showing that skill level.

Wiercioch is bigger and better defensively. They have similar offensive impacts, maybe slight edge to Schultz but the difference isn't big. I don't know why anyone would say otherwise? What has Schultz done to prove he's better than Wiercioch? Been a highly sought after UFA?



Look, maybe Schenn has been awesome this season in Philly. Honestly don't know.

But I've been told COUNTLESS times in this thread that this season is not a sufficient sample size to evaluate a player (Philly fans referring to Wiercioch). So, if we base our evaluation of Schenn on how he played in Toronto, he is an AWFUL defenseman. He played the 6th or 7th least minutes per game on a team that had serious defensive woes and could have used a good defensive d-man (and rightfully so).

But if you're telling me that Schenn has played like a legit top 3 D-man this season, than OK, he's better than Wiercioch at the moment.
Luke has been wayyyyy better than advertised by Totonto fans and wayyyy better than last year. So yes, if you are thinking of that Luke Schenn...then you are right to doubt him. But by the same token, Philly fans can say...I have not seen Wier this year...so really, he is an AHL d-man. Neither one is right to do.

If everyone is healthy...where is Wire in the depth chart?
Karlsson,Cowen,Gonchar,Methot,Phillips, then Wier. Correct? And he is getting more icetime and PP time with Erik hurt. To me, Ottawa should be keeping him to round out their top 6.

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Old
03-21-2013, 10:43 PM
  #225
TSA0402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Re-reading through the thread, here's what I think.

Briere for Bishop (+) is probably reasonable if OTT is looking to compete over the next few seasons and still sees Lehner as the future (and Anderson as the present).

Read for Wiercioch (+) might make sense. It doesn't seem like it is something that either fan base is happy with, which either means it fits neither teams needs (seems unlikely) or is closer to fair value.

Briere has NMC, silly option. Ottawa has more forward prospects than defense at this point, and if Wiercioch can stick as a solid #3-5 dman on this team, they would be better suited keeping him.

With Noesen, Zibanejad, Stone, Puempel coming up and this team with a low cap in a rebuild, Read and his term seems less intriguing.

I'd say Bishop for a pick plus a decent or below average prospect is the only thing that makes some sense.

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