HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > St. Louis Blues
Notices

Blues Trade Proposals - Part 5

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-10-2013, 08:46 AM
  #776
Vladys Gumption
Registered User
 
Vladys Gumption's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 6,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoofSlashFoig View Post
Personally, I'm content with leaving Sobotka as the 3C. He's got a very underrated offensive game, he controls the puck along the boards with more strength than Berglund. Whenever I see Sobi going one hand on his stick and fighting off defenders I'm confident he'll retain possession of the puck. Honestly can't say the same for Berglund which is quite sad considering his huge frame.
Exactly right on Sobi. If Berglund played like Sobotka does, he'd be unstoppable.

Vladys Gumption is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 08:48 AM
  #777
Alklha
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 7,255
vCash: 50
The problem with Berglund is all about his playmaking. 7 assists this season, and 26 in his last 120 games is just not good enough for a #2C with the talent he has on the wings. He is a good player, and will be a much better fit somewhere else.

Alklha is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 09:28 AM
  #778
PocketNines
Only a 2 year window
 
PocketNines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Crested Butte, CO
Posts: 9,298
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Nice

PocketNines is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 11:07 AM
  #779
Harley83
Registered User
 
Harley83's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 294
vCash: 500
Bergie always seems to step it up right when people show the most disappointment in him, last year he seemed to wake up during the playoffs. He plays 70-82 games per year and the Blues definitely need that in their players.

Harley83 is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 11:50 AM
  #780
ExJbeck
Registered User
 
ExJbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,386
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alklha View Post
The problem with Berglund is all about his playmaking. 7 assists this season, and 26 in his last 120 games is just not good enough for a #2C with the talent he has on the wings. He is a good player, and will be a much better fit somewhere else.
[RANT]Seriously that is terrible. My hate for Berglund increases even on day he isn't playing haha. I also have a problem with how is stick is practically never on the ice when it should be and he also touches pucks he shouldn't be touching. He has the worst vision on the team. You see that shot last night that went into Josi's shins. If he is "shooter" then that puck needs to find it way to the net. He shoots wide more than I would like as well. I really don't even want him on our team next season, even if we can't immediately replace him. He can't win faceoffs either so what is the point to having him out there. I'm pretty sure he is overrated defensively by lots of people on here too. [/RANT]

ExJbeck is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 11:57 AM
  #781
2 Minute Minor
Hi Keeba!
 
2 Minute Minor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Temple, Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 7,209
vCash: 714
OK, just want to make sure guys...we've moved on from Perron and its Berglund now?

Also, can I nominate Shattenkirk for the next target? I've been unhappy with his play lately.

2 Minute Minor is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 12:01 PM
  #782
CarvinSigX
Registered User
 
CarvinSigX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Illinois
Country: United States
Posts: 7,929
vCash: 2616
I've been disappointed with Shatty since they took Jackman away from him. I really wish they'd go back to that.

CarvinSigX is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 12:07 PM
  #783
Alklha
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 7,255
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
I've been disappointed with Shatty since they took Jackman away from him. I really wish they'd go back to that.
I feel the same. Redden played better, but the impact on Shattenkirk was greater than any benefit to Redden. I was shocked that Jackman wasn't back there when we got Bouwmeester.

Can't really complain on the defensive side of things considering we have had back-to-back shutouts.

Alklha is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 12:13 PM
  #784
bleedblue1223
OMAHA!!!
 
bleedblue1223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 19,904
vCash: 50
Shatty is just more effective with a true stay at home. I'm actually kind of happy since Army will be able to sign him closer to 4 million.

bleedblue1223 is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 12:29 PM
  #785
PocketNines
Only a 2 year window
 
PocketNines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Crested Butte, CO
Posts: 9,298
vCash: 50
All the key RFAs besides Pietrangelo are slumping right now. Pietrangelo isn't putting up many points although his play has steadied out over the last 15 games or so considerably. Armstrong is saving money by the game AND the team is on its longest winning streak since a seven-game one in 2010.

PocketNines is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 12:30 PM
  #786
Novacain
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 823
vCash: 500
I would love to bring Leopold back, for the record. If he's willing to come back at 2.8, I would love it.

Novacain is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 03:49 PM
  #787
EastonBlues22
Global Moderator
 
EastonBlues22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,199
vCash: 500
Jeff Carter has 5 assists in 40 games this year, and 18 in his last 95 games (on pace for 23 over 120 games).

Obviously, Berglund's not Carter, but the greater point is that talent doesn't need to fit into a stereotypical package to be a piece that can help you win.

Berglund is a big, young (still only 24 years old), defensively aware/responsible player who currently sits #11 in the league in goals scored among centers. Two years ago he was tied for #18. His faceoffs have improved for 4 years straight now, and his defense has improved quite a bit as well. He isn't afraid to use his body to separate players from the puck along the boards, and he goes to the front of the net. His passing and vision aren't nearly as bad as some people around here like to make them out to be, and he's more physical than people like to give him credit for. There are any number of teams around the league who would love to have him on their roster, even with his inconsistencies, and even as a #2 center.

The Blues have plenty of puck distributors on the wings. There's no reason why Berglund (or Backes for that matter, or any other center) needs to be "that guy" for a line to play to its potential. If it's within the Blues resources to upgrade Berglund into a better player, then great. I hope they do. But I would say that about every single player on the team. Until that happens, I'm more than content to sit on Berglund and see how it all plays out.

EastonBlues22 is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 04:01 PM
  #788
Bluesman91
Registered User
 
Bluesman91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,626
vCash: 2357
If 44.8% is an improvement I don't think I want to look up 4 years ago.

Bluesman91 is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 04:08 PM
  #789
EastonBlues22
Global Moderator
 
EastonBlues22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,199
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
If 44.8% is an improvement I don't think I want to look up 4 years ago.
Heh, it's not. Last time I checked about a week ago it was higher than that.

Make it 3 straight years of improvement leading up to this year, with this year still in the works. (He started around 36% when he broke in, IIRC).

EastonBlues22 is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 04:42 PM
  #790
Alklha
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 7,255
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
Jeff Carter has 5 assists in 40 games this year, and 18 in his last 95 games (on pace for 23 over 120 games).

Obviously, Berglund's not Carter, but the greater point is that talent doesn't need to fit into a stereotypical package to be a piece that can help you win.

Berglund is a big, young (still only 24 years old), defensively aware/responsible player who currently sits #11 in the league in goals scored among centers. Two years ago he was tied for #18. His faceoffs have improved for 4 years straight now, and his defense has improved quite a bit as well. He isn't afraid to use his body to separate players from the puck along the boards, and he goes to the front of the net. His passing and vision aren't nearly as bad as some people around here like to make them out to be, and he's more physical than people like to give him credit for. There are any number of teams around the league who would love to have him on their roster, even with his inconsistencies, and even as a #2 center.

The Blues have plenty of puck distributors on the wings. There's no reason why Berglund (or Backes for that matter, or any other center) needs to be "that guy" for a line to play to its potential. If it's within the Blues resources to upgrade Berglund into a better player, then great. I hope they do. But I would say that about every single player on the team. Until that happens, I'm more than content to sit on Berglund and see how it all plays out.
As I said, Berglund is a good player and would fit well in a lot of teams. I don't think it is what we currently need with the wingers at our disposal.

As for Jeff Carter, he scores 35+ goals a year and as far as I am aware he plays wing for the Kings. When he was a centre for the Flyers he was producing almost as many assists as goals.

I understand your point that players don't have to bring the stereotypical skillset to the table, but they have to bring something significant. Berglund isn't producing assists and he has never had more than 22 goals. Yes... he has 15 goals in 38 games, but his shooting percentage is 26+% (career 13%). He doesn't shoot often enough to make up for the lack of assists. If he played another 44 games this season with his career shooting percentage, he'd be on pace for another 9 goals.

If we can afford to keep Berglund and get the centre that this team is lacking, then I am all for that. I think he is a good player and Backes & Berglund as our 2C & 3C would look good, but we're going to have to give something up for the other centre we need.

Alklha is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 04:47 PM
  #791
ExJbeck
Registered User
 
ExJbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,386
vCash: 50
I'm pretty sure other coaches try to match their best players up against Berglund's line. At least that's what I see. It is an absolutely no brainer why. His wingers have changed throughout the season and I still noticed the same thing. I know he has improved defensively, but that does not mean he's good. He is on the PK, so maybe I don't see something.

I'm not sure where to find the advanced hockey stats, but I'd love to see the how many of his faceoffs start in the offensive zone and the level of competition he plays against relative to the other players on the Blues. Also I'd like to see what percentage of his shot attempts actually hit the net. If anyone knows, could I please get a link?

ExJbeck is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 04:48 PM
  #792
AtlSioux
Registered User
 
AtlSioux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 108
vCash: 500
Jets fan coming in peace....

Was curious what some of you HF guys thought of Dustin Byfuglien...I know we need some help up front. thoughts on:

To STL
Buff, Tangradi and 2nd round pick in 2013

to Wpg:
Berglund and Shattenkirk

AtlSioux is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 05:00 PM
  #793
EastonBlues22
Global Moderator
 
EastonBlues22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,199
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alklha View Post
As I said, Berglund is a good player and would fit well in a lot of teams. I don't think it is what we currently need with the wingers at our disposal.

As for Jeff Carter, he scores 35+ goals a year and as far as I am aware he plays wing for the Kings. When he was a centre for the Flyers he was producing almost as many assists as goals.

I understand your point that players don't have to bring the stereotypical skillset to the table, but they have to bring something significant. Berglund isn't producing assists and he has never had more than 22 goals. Yes... he has 15 goals in 38 games, but his shooting percentage is 26+% (career 13%). He doesn't shoot often enough to make up for the lack of assists. If he played another 44 games this season with his career shooting percentage, he'd be on pace for another 9 goals.

If we can afford to keep Berglund and get the centre that this team is lacking, then I am all for that. I think he is a good player and Backes & Berglund as our 2C & 3C would look good, but we're going to have to give something up for the other centre we need.
Let me preface this by saying that the first bold section is a fair opinion, and I'm not here to change your (or anyone else's) mind.

With that said, the regression you're using in the second bold section cuts both ways. He's on pace for 123 shots this year over 82 games. The previous two years he's averaged more than 180, which puts him at about 23 expected goals based on his career shooting percentage. That would have tied him for 18th among centers last year, and 16th the year before. He also has more career assists than goals, and would be "due" 12 assists in those same 44 games based on his career assist numbers per games played.

Regardless of what numbers we're using, it's pretty hard to make a case that Berglund isn't a top 30 goal scoring center in this league. IMO, it's also pretty hard to make a case that he doesn't hold #2 C value in the grand scheme of things. One can make the argument that an average #2 C isn't a #2 C on most Cup winning teams and be perfectly justified in doing so...but that same argument holds for the #1 C position, and #3 C position, and for goaltending, and right on down the line. It's not an argument that applies specifically to Berglund, even though it's often used that way.


Last edited by EastonBlues22: 04-10-2013 at 05:06 PM.
EastonBlues22 is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 05:03 PM
  #794
CarvinSigX
Registered User
 
CarvinSigX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Illinois
Country: United States
Posts: 7,929
vCash: 2616
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlSioux View Post
Jets fan coming in peace....

Was curious what some of you HF guys thought of Dustin Byfuglien...I know we need some help up front. thoughts on:

To STL
Buff, Tangradi and 2nd round pick in 2013

to Wpg:
Berglund and Shattenkirk
LOL...No way. But you already knew that.

CarvinSigX is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 05:24 PM
  #795
EastonBlues22
Global Moderator
 
EastonBlues22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,199
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExJbeck View Post
I'm pretty sure other coaches try to match their best players up against Berglund's line. At least that's what I see. It is an absolutely no brainer why. His wingers have changed throughout the season and I still noticed the same thing. I know he has improved defensively, but that does not mean he's good. He is on the PK, so maybe I don't see something.

I'm not sure where to find the advanced hockey stats, but I'd love to see the how many of his faceoffs start in the offensive zone and the level of competition he plays against relative to the other players on the Blues. Also I'd like to see what percentage of his shot attempts actually hit the net. If anyone knows, could I please get a link?
http://www.behindthenet.ca/ is a good place to start. Berglund plays much harder competition than Sobotka, He consistently sits as the #2 C in that regard and ~5th overall among forwards behind Backes, Oshie, Steen, and whoever happens to be the #1 left winger with Backes/Oshie much of the time/whichever left wingers are avoiding "third line" duties (this year that's McDonald and Perron, even though neither has been a defensive stalwart this year). He's starting 52% of his shifts in the offensive zone. Last year the numbers were similar, but Berglund was starting ~49% in the offensive zone.

NHL.com has the shot info, but you have to do a bit of math to figure it out. This year 74% of Berglund's shots are hitting the net. The last two years it was 63% and 71%. Last year Berglund launched almost 300 shots at the net after launching (what was then) a career high of 247 the year before. The progression of those numbers (and the timing in his development curve) was very encouraging. This year he's on pace for 166 launched shots over 82 games. I'm taking that number with a big grain of salt moving forward based on what I've seen over the previous two seasons.

EastonBlues22 is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 05:32 PM
  #796
Meatwagon
Blues=Overrated
 
Meatwagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Welcome Home, Paul
Country: United States
Posts: 1,191
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlSioux View Post
Jets fan coming in peace....

Was curious what some of you HF guys thought of Dustin Byfuglien...I know we need some help up front. thoughts on:

To STL
Buff, Tangradi and 2nd round pick in 2013

to Wpg:
Berglund and Shattenkirk
Change Buff to Kane and Tangardi/2nd to Burmistrov and we can talk, until then...NO!

Edit: I'm not saying that's fair value, but it's as absurd as your proposal.

Meatwagon is online now  
Old
04-10-2013, 05:42 PM
  #797
Use the Schwartz*
****in' eh
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,514
vCash: 500
I love Berglund, don't see us moving him. Or any other center for that matter. Not with the depth we have. Even if we could package say maybe, Halak and Berglund for a legit number one center, we'd just be back at square one with no center depth(albeit with a number one center, but I digress).

I think it's more likely that Perron gets moved. Probably has more value anyway.

Use the Schwartz* is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 05:49 PM
  #798
Meatwagon
Blues=Overrated
 
Meatwagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Welcome Home, Paul
Country: United States
Posts: 1,191
vCash: 500
If the Rangers buy out Brad Richards this summer, should the Blues give him a shot?

Meatwagon is online now  
Old
04-10-2013, 05:52 PM
  #799
Bluesman91
Registered User
 
Bluesman91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,626
vCash: 2357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Coleman View Post
I love Berglund, don't see us moving him. Or any other center for that matter. Not with the depth we have. Even if we could package say maybe, Halak and Berglund for a legit number one center, we'd just be back at square one with no center depth(albeit with a number one center, but I digress).

I think it's more likely that Perron gets moved. Probably has more value anyway.
How would we be at square one?

#1C+Backes>Backes+Berglund. The idea isn't to get more depth. This team is full of depth. The idea is to make the team better while still being able to retain our depth.

Bluesman91 is offline  
Old
04-10-2013, 06:21 PM
  #800
HooliganX2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,110
vCash: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
Jeff Carter has 5 assists in 40 games this year, and 18 in his last 95 games (on pace for 23 over 120 games).

Obviously, Berglund's not Carter, but the greater point is that talent doesn't need to fit into a stereotypical package to be a piece that can help you win.

Berglund is a big, young (still only 24 years old), defensively aware/responsible player who currently sits #11 in the league in goals scored among centers. Two years ago he was tied for #18. His faceoffs have improved for 4 years straight now, and his defense has improved quite a bit as well. He isn't afraid to use his body to separate players from the puck along the boards, and he goes to the front of the net. His passing and vision aren't nearly as bad as some people around here like to make them out to be, and he's more physical than people like to give him credit for. There are any number of teams around the league who would love to have him on their roster, even with his inconsistencies, and even as a #2 center.

The Blues have plenty of puck distributors on the wings. There's no reason why Berglund (or Backes for that matter, or any other center) needs to be "that guy" for a line to play to its potential. If it's within the Blues resources to upgrade Berglund into a better player, then great. I hope they do. But I would say that about every single player on the team. Until that happens, I'm more than content to sit on Berglund and see how it all plays out.
I agree with you 100%. Our fan base is fickle and always needs a new whipping boy now it's Berglund if he scores for 3-4 games straight they will move on to the next slumping player. I see Stewart coming up very soon if we he doesn't hit a scoring streak. McDonald is also in there.

I like our team currently of course we could use a true #1 center but most of what available are borderline guys. It seems like 2/3 of the league would like a center upgrade.

I'm fine seeing how we perform in the playoffs and see where we are then.

HooliganX2 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:14 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.