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Blues Trade Proposals - Part 5

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Old
03-26-2013, 12:11 AM
  #151
MattyMo35
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Army clearly understands the need at LD, as he has mentioned it multiple times. Obviously, I want them to make a move for the LD partner for Petro, but I really don't want him to overpay unless the guy is absolutely the right guy. I have faith Army will try with everything he has to satisfy this need, but I don't expect him to overpay badly, unless of course it's who he views as the ideal guy. If he overpays for a great piece, I will still be satisfied so long as it's picks/prospect/minor roster players.

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03-26-2013, 08:22 AM
  #152
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IF we land DeKeyser, how long until Ian Cole asks for a trade? I think our FO has shown him that they don't trust him to be a regular player here. I mean, if we more or less promise a kid straight or of college a spot on the team, doesn't that pretty much prove that Cole doesn't have a future here?

First they sign a player who's been out of the league for a few years, and plays him more than you. Then they play Russell over you, even though he was playing awful (granted, he has been good lately). And then they even go after a college kid. I would not be happy if I were Cole.

Obviously, Hitch and the rest of the coaching staff know what they're doing, but to me Ian's been playing pretty good, and he's definitely undeserving of an AHL demotion.

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03-26-2013, 09:37 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by erderuft View Post
IF we land DeKeyser, how long until Ian Cole asks for a trade? I think our FO has shown him that they don't trust him to be a regular player here. I mean, if we more or less promise a kid straight or of college a spot on the team, doesn't that pretty much prove that Cole doesn't have a future here?

First they sign a player who's been out of the league for a few years, and plays him more than you. Then they play Russell over you, even though he was playing awful (granted, he has been good lately). And then they even go after a college kid. I would not be happy if I were Cole.

Obviously, Hitch and the rest of the coaching staff know what they're doing, but to me Ian's been playing pretty good, and he's definitely undeserving of an AHL demotion.
If they land him, then I can see the Blues packaging up a Cole, Perron (for instance), and picks for the right #1/#2 center (if one is available and value is there). Cole played himself into his spot. Redden and Russell aren't playing their way out of the lineup. They deserve to play.

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03-26-2013, 12:05 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by erderuft View Post
IF we land DeKeyser, how long until Ian Cole asks for a trade? I think our FO has shown him that they don't trust him to be a regular player here. I mean, if we more or less promise a kid straight or of college a spot on the team, doesn't that pretty much prove that Cole doesn't have a future here?

First they sign a player who's been out of the league for a few years, and plays him more than you. Then they play Russell over you, even though he was playing awful (granted, he has been good lately). And then they even go after a college kid. I would not be happy if I were Cole.

Obviously, Hitch and the rest of the coaching staff know what they're doing, but to me Ian's been playing pretty good, and he's definitely undeserving of an AHL demotion.
I don't see the team making any ice time decisions except what they think will give them the best chance to win games. Its up to Ian Cole to earn his ice time. (Just look at the situation in goal. If you're playing better, you play.)

Russell deserves some credit for turning his game around. Redden is a bit slow, but he's playing more consistently than Cole right now.

Anyway, I don't really understand why Cole would have such a sense of entitlement. I haven't seen much to indicate that he actually thinks this way. Hopefully he's just working hard, trying to learn from the veteran players (like Redden) and improving his game. Its his first full season in the NHL....so I don't think things are as awful as all that.

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03-26-2013, 12:16 PM
  #155
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I don't see the team making any ice time decisions except what they think will give them the best chance to win games. Its up to Ian Cole to earn his ice time. (Just look at the situation in goal. If you're playing better, you play.)

Russell deserves some credit for turning his game around. Redden is a bit slow, but he's playing more consistently than Cole right now.

Anyway, I don't really understand why Cole would have such a sense of entitlement. I haven't seen much to indicate that he actually thinks this way. Hopefully he's just working hard, trying to learn from the veteran players (like Redden) and improving his game. Its his first full season in the NHL....so I don't think things are as awful as all that.
I basically agree with this.

I would say that Cole isn't playing more because we have found a niche that is working with our current group of LHD. Russell has a skill set that compliments Polák, so basically there is only 1 spot to play for. If Jackman wasn't playing well with Pietrangelo, then I think Cole would be in the team. But that is working and we think we can get more out of Redden in the final spot.

I don't imagine that Cole demands a trade if we managed to get DeKeyser, but I do think we'll be looking to move him anyway.

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03-26-2013, 01:11 PM
  #156
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I wonder if Army starts to get some of the resigning done after the deadline?

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03-26-2013, 01:11 PM
  #157
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Alklha, perhaps you can enlighten me re: DeKeyser. Just hypothetically, would his contract kick in this year even if he finishes the season in Peoria? Gilroy signed with the Rangers after BU won the national championship in 2009 but his contract didn't kick in until the following year. Does DD simply have too much leverage with everyone chasing him and he gets a guarantee to go straight to the show and get in X many games by the end of the NHL season so his contract kicks in and his ELC ends after next season? Is there even a threshold anymore like there was for Schwartz last year or did that change in the new CBA? This might be moot anyway since Andy Murray was quoted today in a Michigan paper that he will 100% not play a game in the AHL but I'm just curious for contractual purposes.

My point is that while I think the Blues have a lot to offer a guy like DeKeyser, I find it incredibly hard to believe that Hitchcock would throw a rookie out of college into the heat of an NHL playoff chase especially with Redden playing slightly better.

But next season there's no question he would be a favorite to make the team out of camp and would simply be the new Cole. The question is would he be willing to be patient and wait a season since the Blues make a boatload of sense relative to some other teams even though they would be able to offer an NHL roster spot right away.

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03-26-2013, 02:17 PM
  #158
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Alklha, perhaps you can enlighten me re: DeKeyser. Just hypothetically, would his contract kick in this year even if he finishes the season in Peoria? Gilroy signed with the Rangers after BU won the national championship in 2009 but his contract didn't kick in until the following year. Does DD simply have too much leverage with everyone chasing him and he gets a guarantee to go straight to the show and get in X many games by the end of the NHL season so his contract kicks in and his ELC ends after next season? Is there even a threshold anymore like there was for Schwartz last year or did that change in the new CBA? This might be moot anyway since Andy Murray was quoted today in a Michigan paper that he will 100% not play a game in the AHL but I'm just curious for contractual purposes.

My point is that while I think the Blues have a lot to offer a guy like DeKeyser, I find it incredibly hard to believe that Hitchcock would throw a rookie out of college into the heat of an NHL playoff chase especially with Redden playing slightly better.

But next season there's no question he would be a favorite to make the team out of camp and would simply be the new Cole. The question is would he be willing to be patient and wait a season since the Blues make a boatload of sense relative to some other teams even though they would be able to offer an NHL roster spot right away.
On the contract, whoever he ends up signing for will be giving him a 2 year ELC and this will be the first year. He doesn't need to play a game for this to count as the first year. He will only accept that as it means he can get his 10% signing bonus and first contract year out of the way.

On Gilroy, I don't remember that particular situation, but it would have been a pre-dated contract. They might have announced his signing before the end of a season, but the contract would not have kicked in until July 1. We have done the same with Joel Edmundson, Yannick Veilleux etc recently; they are signed to their ELC's but they don't kick in until July 1, so we couldn't call them up this season even if we wanted to.

Playing wise, he looks NHL ready. He should be fine on the third pairing, with top 4 upside. I don't think he is capable of partnering Shattenkirk yet, but you never know. I think his "demands" will be pretty basic... guaranteed a place on the NHL roster following the trade deadline, to have a good chance of some limited involvement this season and actually have where the organisation sees him fitting in spelt out to him. I don't think he'll be looking to be a regular this year.

Next season, the advantage he has over Cole is his versatility. Despite modest point totals in college, he is a solid 2-way player. He could play with Polák, he could do the job that Redden is currently doing with Shattenkirk. Cole isn't the 7th Dman in this team because the other 6 are all better players, it's more a case of his skillset and ability not matching up to an opening we have.

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03-26-2013, 03:35 PM
  #159
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If Armstrong winds up not doing anything at the trade deadline trade-wise, wouldn't be surprised if he announced an RFA extension or two.

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03-26-2013, 03:43 PM
  #160
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If Armstrong winds up not doing anything at the trade deadline trade-wise, wouldn't be surprised if he announced an RFA extension or two.
I think so too. I will not be surprised at all, if he doesn't do a thing. Maybe a minor deal.

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03-26-2013, 03:43 PM
  #161
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If Armstrong winds up not doing anything at the trade deadline trade-wise, wouldn't be surprised if he announced an RFA extension or two.
He's gonna pull an A-Rod, upstage everyone and announced resignings of Petro, Shatty, Stewart, and Berglund. To top it off he'll sign Lehtera just for he hell of it. HF then goes straight into chaos.

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03-26-2013, 03:53 PM
  #162
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On the flip side, he does need to see how each of those guys does in the playoffs. Particularly the forwards IMO. The defensemen ... Petro has quietly turned his season around and since he's the franchise you really don't need to get more playoff data from him.

If there's one guy I'd actually like to see locked up first I'd say Shattenkirk. Not because he's more valuable than Pietrangelo (he isn't), but if Shattenkirk's extension is fixed in place first at something in the AAV range of 4.2M-4.8M I think it sends a signal to the other three guys what they can expect. Berglund certainly can't/won't get more. Stewart might get near Shattenkirk (fewer years maybe), and Pietrangelo knows his AAV is going to be in the 6-7 range but nothing crazy beyond that.

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03-26-2013, 04:08 PM
  #163
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Both sides would be comfortable signing in regards to Pietrangelo, and I expect that to get done before the season is over. Shattenkirk is similar as his value really won't change much.

Berglund and Stewart are a bit more interesting because both could either help o hurt their value depending on their playoffs and play down the stretch. If Stewart stays a point per game and has a big playoffs, then he will cost a little more, same with Berglund, but not to the same extent. Although if they slow down, then the Blues could and should get them for a little less. Problem is there isn't much time between playoffs and free agency. So how long will Army or the agent want to wait.

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03-26-2013, 04:09 PM
  #164
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On the flip side, he does need to see how each of those guys does in the playoffs. Particularly the forwards IMO. The defensemen ... Petro has quietly turned his season around and since he's the franchise you really don't need to get more playoff data from him.

If there's one guy I'd actually like to see locked up first I'd say Shattenkirk. Not because he's more valuable than Pietrangelo (he isn't), but if Shattenkirk's extension is fixed in place first at something in the AAV range of 4.2M-4.8M I think it sends a signal to the other three guys what they can expect. Berglund certainly can't/won't get more. Stewart might get near Shattenkirk (fewer years maybe), and Pietrangelo knows his AAV is going to be in the 6-7 range but nothing crazy beyond that.
I wouldn't be so quick to guarentee AP a 6-7 million AAV. Phoenix just signed OEL for 5.5 and I'm sure Army is just as good of a negotiator as Maloney. IF we're going for 6+ AAV, it better be for max term.

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03-26-2013, 05:46 PM
  #165
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I would certainly hope that both Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo are locked down far in advance of the deadline. GMs around the league (and especially within the conference) have to have considered that they can hamstring the Blues for years to come by extending huge offer sheets to those two. They'd either (a) wind up with a top-shelf defenseman; or (b) stick an economically constrained team with a huge salary. Worst case, this would apply to both players.

On the other hand, Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo have a decent bit of leverage here, knowing that some teams are ready and willing to extend high-dollar offer sheets for franchise players.

This scares me more than a little bit.

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03-26-2013, 06:42 PM
  #166
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I wouldn't be so quick to guarentee AP a 6-7 million AAV. Phoenix just signed OEL for 5.5 and I'm sure Army is just as good of a negotiator as Maloney. IF we're going for 6+ AAV, it better be for max term.
Armstrong is a good negotiator but Pietrangelo has out produced OEL considerably over the course of their ELC's, has Norris votes in his back pocket and projects higher than OEL. The only way I see Pietrangelo getting an AAV like OEL's is on a two year bridge deal. If Armstrong gets him locked in long term at 5.5AAV you might as well give him GM of the year until that contract expires.

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03-26-2013, 06:57 PM
  #167
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The plan has to be to get Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk locked up for the full 8 years, bridge contracts will cost us more in the long run. Shattenkirk might not want to go past 6 or 7 for age reasons, but there is no reason not to get 8 years from Pietrangelo. $6.25m or less for Pietrangelo would be outstanding, $4.75m for Shattenkirk (depending on term). Karlsson is a closer comparison for Pietrangelo than OEL, I'd love to see $5.5m but considering his agent and production, it is highly unlikely.

Berglund is a little more difficult to guess at. I'd probably say just under $4m for 5 years.

Hopefully it does start all falling into place in April, including the likes of Porter as well.

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03-26-2013, 10:48 PM
  #168
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We are gonna have a fun draft.

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03-26-2013, 10:53 PM
  #169
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We are gonna have a fun draft.
Maybe. Realistically, Stillman has probably already accepted a big loss this year because of the lockout. This team needs as many games as possible to make money. I see a very quiet deadline from the Blues and no needs addressed. Not that it's what I want to see, but this is a super budget team that could miss the playoffs again. Can't invest any more money than what it'll take to stay somewhat competitive.

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03-26-2013, 10:56 PM
  #170
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Alklha, perhaps you can enlighten me re: DeKeyser. Just hypothetically, would his contract kick in this year even if he finishes the season in Peoria? Gilroy signed with the Rangers after BU won the national championship in 2009 but his contract didn't kick in until the following year. Does DD simply have too much leverage with everyone chasing him and he gets a guarantee to go straight to the show and get in X many games by the end of the NHL season so his contract kicks in and his ELC ends after next season? Is there even a threshold anymore like there was for Schwartz last year or did that change in the new CBA? This might be moot anyway since Andy Murray was quoted today in a Michigan paper that he will 100% not play a game in the AHL but I'm just curious for contractual purposes.

My point is that while I think the Blues have a lot to offer a guy like DeKeyser, I find it incredibly hard to believe that Hitchcock would throw a rookie out of college into the heat of an NHL playoff chase especially with Redden playing slightly better.

But next season there's no question he would be a favorite to make the team out of camp and would simply be the new Cole. The question is would he be willing to be patient and wait a season since the Blues make a boatload of sense relative to some other teams even though they would be able to offer an NHL roster spot right away.
Dekeyser would be such an important acquisition for the present, and especially, the future, I'd promise him an NHL roster spot to get him to sign with us. Getting a player that fits our long-term plans, adds another low-cost/high-quality player (defenceman with size and skill) that is ALREADY basically up with Cole (current #7) without using one of our valuable #1 draft choices would be a BIG, BIG gain.

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03-26-2013, 11:13 PM
  #171
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As frustrating as things are, we are still in a playoff position with a bit of separation. We have had the better of the play in each of the last 4 games and come away with 2 points, that is completely unacceptable and there can only be so many excuses made for it.

Our defense is a joke. We can point to it being smothering and whatever, but when basically every shot you give up is a prime scoring chance then it is useless. If we have to move Stewart or Perron to send the message and add a significant defensive piece then do it. I'm sick of how the defense is playing; that basically goes for every player on the ice except Jackman.

I hope we get DeKeyser, but even if we do he is not the answer in the short term. He is probably a better fit than Russell on the third pairing, but expecting anything more this season is being far too optimistic.

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03-26-2013, 11:22 PM
  #172
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I'm honestly sick of hearing about the budget. I'm well aware it exists, but, if Armstrong says he wants to only moves futures (picks/prospects) for a player then we can afford people.

I know none of us want the Blues to overpay but it's going to be really ****ing annoying if we fail to get a defenseman yet again. I really don't care if Redden has improved his play as of late...he's still not very good and couldn't have gotten much worse.

This post isn't directed at anyone here because I think we all agree what this team needs for the most part, I'm just ranting.

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03-26-2013, 11:28 PM
  #173
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I'm honestly sick of hearing about the budget. I'm well aware it exists, but, if Armstrong says he wants to only moves futures (picks/prospects) for a player then we can afford people.

I know none of us want the Blues to overpay but it's going to be really ****ing annoying if we fail to get a defenseman yet again. I really don't care if Redden has improved his play as of late...he's still not very good and couldn't have gotten much worse.

This post isn't directed at anyone here because I think we all agree what this team needs for the most part, I'm just ranting.
Well obviously the picks and prospects deals aren't getting enough interest...Which is the worst part.

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03-26-2013, 11:33 PM
  #174
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We've been talking about Kiprusoff (because he makes 1.5M next year and clearly still has something left), but if you look at the main trade board he apparently told Feaster he would not report to any new team to which he might be traded, even though he doesn't have a NTC. So that idea is kaput.

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03-26-2013, 11:35 PM
  #175
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True Carvin, but will it ever get better?

Yes, Pittsburgh probably overpaid for both Morrow and Murray. But, they have a good chance of winning the cup this year.

Now I know it's not a very good comparison because Pittsburgh has a lot more elite talent than us, but sometimes you may have to slightly overpay in one deal to solidify yourself as a true cup contender.

I'm just wondering when that time will come. Teams aren't going to lower their asking prices a whole lot just to help us out. You have to give to get, and the Blues are in a situation here where maybe they should just go for it fairly soon and get "their guy" whoever that may be. Just thinking out loud here. If the Blues stand pat at the deadline I will understand why, but at some point you can't fall behind the pack while all the other contenders are upgrading year after year.

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