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Does(Has) the core lack(ed) grit?

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03-20-2013, 01:58 PM
  #1
OrrNumber4
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Does(Has) the core lack(ed) grit?

Something that has always bothered me about the Sharks was the lack of sandpaper in the core skater group.

Other than Boyle, that kind of grit/sandpaper is not really present in the Sharks's core in more than nominal amounts (Couture/Pavelski). Even "in the pipeline", only Jason Demers really has shown that kind of edge in his game.

For the longest time, this has been the case. Heatley brought a little bit of it (shell of his former self), as did Setoguchi; of course if Clowe were at any time considered part of the core, he's had it in spades. Is it a coincidence that the team has done best with all three in the lineup and playing like that?

Moreover, there is a big problem in that SJ's top two forwards, who have been the top-2 ever since Thornton was acquired, both don't even have an average level of this quality in them.

Look at the recent SC champions. Anaheim had Perry, Getzlaf, and Pronger. The Red Wings had it in Holmstrom and Clearly. The Penguins had Crosby, Staal, and Orpik. The Hawks had Kane, Toews, and Keith. The Bruins had Krejci, Marchand, and Chara. Lastly, the Kings had it in Richards, Penner, and Brown...

Thoughts?

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03-20-2013, 02:01 PM
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TheJuxtaposer
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In what world are Crosby, Cleary, Kane, Toews, Keith, Krejci, or Penner "gritty"?

Grit is the single more overrated aspect of hockey, and that's a fact.

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03-20-2013, 02:08 PM
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WTFetus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Moreover, there is a big problem in that SJ's top two forwards, who have been the top-2 ever since Thornton was acquired, both don't even have an average level of this quality in them.

Look at the recent SC champions. Anaheim had Perry, Getzlaf, and Pronger. The Red Wings had it in Holmstrom and Clearly. The Penguins had Crosby, Staal, and Orpik. The Hawks had Kane, Toews, and Keith. The Bruins had Krejci, Marchand, and Chara. Lastly, the Kings had it in Richards, Penner, and Brown...

Thoughts?
You're calling out the Sharks Top 2 forwards, yet your examples weren't the top 2 forwards of the Stanley Cup winning teams.
Toews and Kane aren't gritty. Neither are Bergeron and Krejci, or Crosby or Staal, or Zetterberg or Datsyuk.

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03-20-2013, 02:09 PM
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Gene Parmesan
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No. They did best with Heatley and Seto because they had 7 top 6 forwards. Depth wins championships. As far as "grit" goes..the team doesn't lack it..You've got plenty of gritty foot soldiers and guys like Hamilton, Nieto and Hertl and Kuraly who all play "gritty" games but have some skill along with it. This team needs scoring depth.

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03-20-2013, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
In what world are Crosby, Cleary, Kane, Toews, Keith, Krejci, or Penner "gritty"?

Grit is the single more overrated aspect of hockey, and that's a fact.
Grit/sandpaper. Call it that toughness. The ability to irritate the opponent, to make your opponent abhor playing against you. The willingness to punish a guy who plays dirty by playing dirty yourself.

Think of Dan Boyle, for a top player who has that. Or think of Mike Grier, Mike Ricci, Scott Thornton, Owen Nolan, as Sharks who used to have that.

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03-20-2013, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
You're calling out the Sharks Top 2 forwards, yet your examples weren't the top 2 forwards of the Stanley Cup winning teams.
Toews and Kane aren't gritty. Neither are Bergeron and Krejci, or Crosby or Staal, or Zetterberg or Datsyuk.
Two separate points. The tought about Marleau and Thornton was an overall issue; the list of SC champions was pointing out these kinds of players in their cores...

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03-20-2013, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
No. They did best with Heatley and Seto because they had 7 top 6 forwards. Depth wins championships. As far as "grit" goes..the team doesn't lack it..You've got plenty of gritty foot soldiers and guys like Hamilton, Nieto and Hertl and Kuraly who all play "gritty" games but have some skill along with it. This team needs scoring depth.
Depth wins championships as long as top-end talent also exists.

I am also specifically talking about sandpaper in the core group, not the expendables.

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03-20-2013, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Grit/sandpaper. Call it that toughness. The ability to irritate the opponent, to make your opponent abhor playing against you. The willingness to punish a guy who plays dirty by playing dirty yourself.

Think of Dan Boyle, for a top player who has that. Or think of Mike Grier, Mike Ricci, Scott Thornton, Owen Nolan, as Sharks who used to have that.
So basically you're calling for a dirty player. Awesome.

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03-20-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
In what world are Crosby, Cleary, Kane, Toews, Keith, Krejci, or Penner "gritty"?

Grit is the single more overrated aspect of hockey, and that's a fact.
Amen, but you forgot +/-

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03-20-2013, 02:27 PM
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Amen, but you forgot +/-
True, but most people are starting to come around on the '+/- is a terrible stat' thing. Most people still think that grit wins hockey games.

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03-20-2013, 02:28 PM
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I think what you are describing isn't Grit, more so team unity/chemistry. (though Unity is a better word for this).

I never get the sense that the Sharks ever have a tight nit group. Could because there is constant turnover in the bottom 6, could be because the Veterans are polarizing, could be San Jose's HR department doesn't throw enough company parties.

But in any case it doesn't seem like the Sharks have that. Which in turn translates to battling for you fellow teammates. (though that doesn't mean more hitting, just more effort)

Though winning makes quick friends out of people, so its all speculation. They brought in Burish for "sandpaper" but he hasn't really done much.

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03-20-2013, 02:29 PM
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Gene Parmesan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Grit/sandpaper. Call it that toughness. The ability to irritate the opponent, to make your opponent abhor playing against you. The willingness to punish a guy who plays dirty by playing dirty yourself.

Think of Dan Boyle, for a top player who has that. Or think of Mike Grier, Mike Ricci, Scott Thornton, Owen Nolan, as Sharks who used to have that.
Joe Thornton is a fairly dirty player.

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03-20-2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
I think what you are describing isn't Grit, more so team unity/chemistry. (though Unity is a better word for this).

I never get the sense that the Sharks ever have a tight nit group. Could because there is constant turnover in the bottom 6, could be because the Veterans are polarizing, could be San Jose's HR department doesn't throw enough company parties.

But in any case it doesn't seem like the Sharks have that. Which in turn translates to battling for you fellow teammates. (though that doesn't mean more hitting, just more effort)

Though winning makes quick friends out of people, so its all speculation. They brought in Burish for "sandpaper" but he hasn't really done much.
Definetly can get on board with this.

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03-20-2013, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
Joe Thornton is a fairly dirty player.
Seriously. Dude boards and chops with the best of them.

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03-20-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Seriously. Dude boards and chops with the best of them.
Hes no Malkin or Perry but hes up there as far as dirty superstars go who are playing. Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull and Mark Messier are the kings.

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03-20-2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
In what world are Crosby, Cleary, Kane, Toews, Keith, Krejci, or Penner "gritty"?

Grit is the single more overrated aspect of hockey, and that's a fact.
Yeah, seriously.

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03-20-2013, 02:57 PM
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Seriously. Dude boards and chops with the best of them.
he dishes as he receives, its actually kind of funny.

He is also the Troll king when it comes to top line players

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03-20-2013, 03:17 PM
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Does the core lack some intangible and undefinable vaporous attribute that is somehow attributed to winning even though no one can actually define it in the first place?

Grit is such a garbage term, it's almost completely meaningless and some of the best players in history have 'lacked' it.

If I could get HFBoards to ban 'grit' and 'heart' as foul words I would. Takes any reasonable discussion and flushes it down the toilet as soon as either of those words come into play.

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03-20-2013, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
In what world are Crosby, Cleary, Kane, Toews, Keith, Krejci, or Penner "gritty"?

Grit is the single more overrated aspect of hockey, and that's a fact.
You know what isn't? Having some ****ing heart and a backbone. Actually responding to adversity and not putting your head down like the sky has fallen after you lose.

Boyle has already more or less admitted to the fact that half of the team has already given up. Call it whatever you want but this team loses to easily.

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03-20-2013, 03:35 PM
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You know what isn't? Having some ****ing heart and a backbone. Actually responding to adversity and not putting your head down like the sky has fallen after you lose.

Boyle has already more or less admitted to the fact that half of the team has already given up. Call it whatever you want but this team loses to easily.

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03-20-2013, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Lots of things change with time.

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03-20-2013, 03:42 PM
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Lots of things change with time.
Thornton, Pavelski, Marleau, Couture? All those guys were big parts of that come-back. All but Thornton had multiple points. Do you really think those guys have changed in personality in two years?

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03-20-2013, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Thornton, Pavelski, Marleau, Couture? All those guys were big parts of that come-back. All but Thornton had multiple points. Do you really think those guys have changed in personality in two years?
How the **** would you know if they have or haven't? This team has always lost a little too easily. Oh we lost? Heads down walk to the dressing room. It's just amazing to me that nobody has ever flipped out(besides Clowe but that was obviously more about himself than the team). Win or lose it would be nice if they acted like they gave a damn.

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03-20-2013, 03:59 PM
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How the **** would you know if they have or haven't? This team has always lost a little too easily. Oh we lost? Heads down walk to the dressing room. It's just amazing to me that nobody has ever flipped out(besides Clowe but that was obviously more about himself than the team). Win or lose it would be nice if they acted like they gave a damn.
And what constitutes "giving a damn"? Hitting someone? Yelling? Elbowing someone in the head? Who keeps their head up as the walk to the dressing room after losing? Please, you have no grounds for this team being any different than any other team.

So you know that they've changed since then, but I can't? Seems like quite the double standard. I'm putting out a HISTORIC comeback, IN THE PLAYOFFS, but no, that doesn't mean anything?

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03-20-2013, 04:03 PM
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The core doesn't lack grit and it's been a good many years since that was a concern for us as far as what caused a playoff exit.

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