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Struggling versus the Sabres.. Habs lose 2-1.

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Old
03-24-2013, 01:24 PM
  #226
Valois
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Took my girl to her first habs game, just got my internet back (we were in Montreal the weekend but wi-fi was spotty at the hostel). It was exciting to watch but Miller and the refs were frustrating. Eller had brilliant moments and iffy moments - seemed to try to do too much at times but his chemistry with Galchenyuk is unreal. Ryder was amazing I thought - I truly thought he might score another to tie it up, he was all over the ice. Habs were great at driving possession for the most part but couldn't bury it, which is the most frustrating game to watch.

I think that Armstrong's trying hard but he just seems a step below Eller and Galchenyuk, it will be nice to get Prust back. I have to say though he doesn't look as slow as at the beginning of the season. Maybe that's just seeing them live.

Habs record with me at the bell centre 0-2-0
Habs record with me in attendance 1-3-0

Maybe I'm throwing them off or something?

It's actually because half those games were last year

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03-24-2013, 02:02 PM
  #227
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lmao. Way to play with the stats....we could also say it was the Habs first regulation loss with Prust out of the lineup in a game they pretty much dominated and failed to score.

4-1-1 without Prust. Doesn't mean the team doesn't need him, he's still a very good player but his loss hasn't significantly impacted the team.

Also, the Habs lost against the "weak" Islanders twice with Prust in the lineup and finally beat them this week while he was out.

As for the actual game, sure a couple of players didn't have their best games (Pacioretty, Desharnais, Eller), the biggest problem was that the Habs failed to capitalize on quality scoring chances and that's what lost them the game. Miller stoning Ryder and Blunden, Gionta missing a chance in close. Miller stole the game. The match was tilted in the habs favor and they lost, it happens.


"But... but... it's only our first regulation loss without Prust..."
"But... but... it's only our second regulation loss without Prust..."
"But... but... it's only the first time we get beat up by the Bruins without Prust..."

I can already see it coming. Keep kidding yourself though... We clearly don't need any help right now. We have a great balance on our lineup and are ready for glory

1-1-1 against 3 of the weakest teams in the league. The team has looked the most flat I've ever seen them this year. No big hit, no driving of the crease, no working hard for rebounds. But hey, it's the kind of hockey you like eh? Works great for you. If you can be content with that trash.

And what's wrong with my comparison? Worked great for you when we were 2-0-0. Unless you are hypocritical. But you're not that, now... Are you?

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03-24-2013, 02:18 PM
  #228
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Miller stole that game it's gonna happen once in a while, the blackhawks lost to the avs and they had a full third period to catch up on a goal and they couldn't capitalize. I'm not saying were as good as the hawks but what I'm saying is that some nights it's just not going to go your way.

On a positive note Galchenyuk looked really good and much more confident in the offensive zone. I hope they can get Bourque to play on their line instead of army.

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03-24-2013, 02:28 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post


"But... but... it's only our first regulation loss without Prust..."
"But... but... it's only our second regulation loss without Prust..."
"But... but... it's only the first time we get beat up by the Bruins without Prust..."

I can already see it coming. Keep kidding yourself though... We clearly don't need any help right now. We have a great balance on our lineup and are ready for glory

1-1-1 against 3 of the weakest teams in the league. The team has looked the most flat I've ever seen them this year. No big hit, no driving of the crease, no working hard for rebounds. But hey, it's the kind of hockey you like eh? Works great for you. If you can be content with that trash.

And what's wrong with my comparison? Worked great for you when we were 2-0-0. Unless you are hypocritical. But you're not that, now... Are you?
Fact: Prust out of the lineup habs are 4-1-1.

I don't see the correlation between losing Prust and going 1-1-1 against the three weakest teams in the league especially when we've already lost to the Islanders twice this season with Prust in the line up and beat them out only time with him out of it.


Also, I don't need to play around with the stats to backup anything. Habs are 4-1-1 without Prust. They had their first regulation loss with him out of the lineup last night on a game where the Habs were by far the better team.

The problem with your comparison is that it isn't one at all. You are using only one portion of the entire time he has been out.

Also where did I say the habs don't need help? The habs have great depth this year to shoulder the loss of some players including Prust, which is why the team has gone 4-1-1 with Prust, Bourque and Diaz out of the lineup all at one time.

Also, I don't need to invent what others say in order to prove my point. No where did I say I like the team without Prust, no where did I said that the team with Bourque, Diaz and Prust out of the lineup is just as good as with them in it. These are arguments pure of your fabrication.

What was said was that the Habs would struggle without Prust, in fact, some of you even insinuated that the team might "fall" with his lost and cited the New York Rangers as "proof" of the impact of Prust. This hasn't been the case at all. The team is 4-1-1 without Prust and with injuries to key players, who are being filled in with rookies (Dumont and Tinordi) and the habs looked like they haven't lost a beat in terms of winning %.

The toughness is discourse is blinding you from what is actually happening. I for one hope Prust comes back soon because we are a better team with him in the lineup. Same goes for Bourque and Diaz. We will need all three if the habs want to push in the playoffs. However, like I said, the habs have enough depth to shoulder the loss of all three for now and this is shown in the fact that they have what two regulation losses in their last 19 games if I am not mistaken?

Lastly, to repeat what I said earlier, there is just a flaw in your "correlation" between going 1-1-1 against the "weaker teams" in the Eastern Conference and Prust being out when we've already lost twice to the Islanders with Prust in the lineup. In fact with Prust in the lineup the habs are 1-2-1 with Prust in the lineup against the Sabres and the Islanders and 1-1-1 without him, against the very same teams. What this suggests is that the Habs as a team struggle against these teams for reasons that go beyond the presence or absence of Prust.

But please, do continue to claim that sky will fall because Prust is out of the lineup and that the habs will be beaten to a pulp both on the score sheet and on their faces until he returns. It's this aspect of the toughness debate that is absurd, i.e., that it is the only successful way to build a team (ignoring that there is no one recipe) and that all evidence pointing to success without being toughest team is just smoke and mirrors and that eventually the team will "crash and burn" until they get Thornton, Scott and Bordeleau.


Last edited by Andy: 03-24-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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03-24-2013, 02:35 PM
  #230
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Fact: Prust out of the lineup habs are 4-1-1.

I don't see the correlation between losing Prust and going 1-1-1 against the three weakest teams in the league especially when we've already lost to the Islanders twice this season with Prust in the line up and beat them out only time with him out of it.


Also, I don't need to play around with the stats to backup anything. Habs are 4-1-1 without Prust. They had their first regulation loss with him out of the lineup last night on a game where the Habs were by far the better team.

The problem with your comparison is that it isn't one at all. You are using only one portion of the entire time he has been out.

Also where did I say the habs don't need help? The habs have great depth this year to shoulder the loss of some players including Prust, which is why the team has gone 4-1-1 with Prust, Bourque and Diaz out of the lineup all at one time.

Also, I don't need to invent what others say in order to prove my point. No where did I say I like the team without Prust, no where did I said that the team with Bourque, Diaz and Prust out of the lineup is just as good as with them in it. These are arguments pure of your fabrication.

What was said was that the Habs would struggle without Prust, in fact, some of you even insinuated that the team might "fall" with his lost and cited the New York Rangers as "proof" of the impact of Prust. This hasn't been the case at all. The team is 4-1-1 without Prust and with injuries to key players, who are being filled in with rookies (Dumont and Tinordi) and the habs looked like they haven't lost a beat in terms of winning %.

The toughness is discourse is blinding you from what is actually happening. I for one hope Prust comes back soon because we are a better team with him in the lineup. Same goes for Bourque and Diaz. We will need all three if the habs want to push in the playoffs. However, like I said, the habs have enough depth to shoulder the loss of all three for now and this is shown in the fact that they have what two regulation losses in their last 19 games if I am not mistaken?

Lastly, to repeat what I said earlier, there is just a flaw in your "correlation" between going 1-1-1 against the "weaker teams" in the Eastern Conference and Prust being out when we've already lost twice to the Islanders with Prust in the lineup. In fact with Prust in the lineup the habs are 1-2-1 with Prust in the lineup against the Sabres and the Islanders and 1-1-1 without him, against the very same teams. What this suggests is that the Habs as a team struggle against these teams for reasons that go beyond the presence or absence of Prust.
I'm not surprised a guy like you only looks at statistics and completely disregard how flat and down we looked out there this week. No key hits, no effort in the crease if we forget about Gallagher, very few second efforts. This kind of hockey will get us eliminated in 4 in the playoffs. The only guy on our bottom-6 who gives energy to his team by forechecking, checking and playing like a ping-pong ball is Prust. And the more I think about it, the less enthousiastic I am with the Jeff Halpern move. If anything, it will cost us Dumont, who was the closest thing to Prust out there.

But once again, I'm not surprised the kind of fan you are is basing his opinion on facts and on what is going on now. It's not a given for everyone to look at the big picture and see what's coming.

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03-24-2013, 02:40 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
I'm not surprised a guy like you only looks at statistics and completely disregard how flat and down we looked out there this week. No key hits, no effort in the crease if we forget about Gallagher, very few second efforts. This kind of hockey will get us eliminated in 4 in the playoffs. The only guy on our bottom-6 who gives energy to his team by forechecking, checking and playing like a ping-pong ball is Prust. And the more I think about it, the less enthousiastic I am with the Jeff Halpern move. If anything, it will cost us Dumont, who was the closest thing to Prust out there.
That's a matter of perception, which is mostly like to stem from the fact that you are looking at games through a toughness lens and trying to justify your ideology, which is what it has become. Just in the Sabres game last night the habs dominated possession to the point that the Sabres were stuck in their zone for 1-2 minutes multiple times in one game. I don't consider that being flat.

Also, you discredit me for using stats to "prove" my point, yet you use the fact taht we've gone 1-1-1 against the "weaker" teams shows how we need Prust. We have almost an identical record against those same teams with Prust in the lineup.

The kind of hockey that gets us elimated in 4 games? You mean the same type of hockey that brought the habs to seven games with the almighty and tough Bruins who had to win 3 overtimes games to take the series? Actually I'd be doing this team a disservice by comparing them to the 10-11 team which was much more passive in style relying on a tight defensive structure, where this team actually is more aggressive on the puck and much much better in terms of possession. But again, please keep with the "sky is falling" narrative if it makes you feel better about the lack of toughness.

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03-24-2013, 02:44 PM
  #232
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That's a matter of perception, which is mostly like to stem from the fact that you are looking at games through a toughness lens and trying to justify your ideology, which is what it has become. Just in the Sabres game last night the habs dominated possession to the point that the Sabres were stuck in their zone for 1-2 minutes multiple times in one game. I don't consider that being flat.

Also, you discredit me for using stats to "prove" my point, yet you use the fact taht we've gone 1-1-1 against the "weaker" teams shows how we need Prust. We have almost an identical record against those same teams with Prust in the lineup.
You know when we dominated possession also? In the Philadelphia series in 2008. Didn't prevent us from being kicked out in 5.

As for perception, please. This team looked flat like it's not even funny. And we're about to lose a guy like Dumont to make room for a guy like Halpern, who I wouldn't mind if we could get rid of Moen or White for a guy who can give any kind of energy out there.

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03-24-2013, 02:45 PM
  #233
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Miller stole that game it's gonna happen once in a while, the blackhawks lost to the avs and they had a full third period to catch up on a goal and they couldn't capitalize. I'm not saying were as good as the hawks but what I'm saying is that some nights it's just not going to go your way.

On a positive note Galchenyuk looked really good and much more confident in the offensive zone. I hope they can get Bourque to play on their line instead of army.
Come on. Miller stole nothing. We lacked of net presence and intensity around the net. We also needed any kind of energy from our 4th line, which provided nothing yesterday.

I'm not even sure Sabres d-men had to take a shower after this one. Moen neither for that matter...

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03-24-2013, 02:45 PM
  #234
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You know when we dominated possession also? In the Philadelphia series in 2008. Didn't prevent us from being kicked out in 5.

As for perception, please. This team looked flat like it's not even funny. And we're about to lose a guy like Dumont to make room for a guy like Halpern, who I wouldn't mind if we could get rid of Moen or White for a guy who can give any kind of energy out there.
Which had to more with Price absolutely crapping the bed more than the "toughness" narrative given to that series. That series was on this summer and the nhl network. If Price was able to make a save the habs would have walked away that series.

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03-24-2013, 02:46 PM
  #235
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I'm not surprised a guy like you only looks at statistics and completely disregard how flat and down we looked out there this week. No key hits, no effort in the crease if we forget about Gallagher, very few second efforts. This kind of hockey will get us eliminated in 4 in the playoffs. The only guy on our bottom-6 who gives energy to his team by forechecking, checking and playing like a ping-pong ball is Prust. And the more I think about it, the less enthousiastic I am with the Jeff Halpern move. If anything, it will cost us Dumont, who was the closest thing to Prust out there.

But once again, I'm not surprised the kind of fan you are is basing his opinion on facts and on what is going on now. It's not a given for everyone to look at the big picture and see what's coming.
Yes, how terrible of him to base his opinions on facts in opposition to your modus operendi.

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03-24-2013, 02:47 PM
  #236
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Which had to more with Price absolutely crapping the bed more than the "toughness" narrative given to that series.
The fact we failed to score more than 2 goals in 3 of the 5 games sure didn't have anything to do with that, eh?

Copy-paste in 2010. Copy-paste in 2011.

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03-24-2013, 02:52 PM
  #237
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You know when we dominated possession also? In the Philadelphia series in 2008. Didn't prevent us from being kicked out in 5.

As for perception, please. This team looked flat like it's not even funny. And we're about to lose a guy like Dumont to make room for a guy like Halpern, who I wouldn't mind if we could get rid of Moen or White for a guy who can give any kind of energy out there.
Not only did they dominate possession but the habs chances in that series were from closer and "dirtier" areas of the ice. Big, tough and gritty guys like Jones let the likes of Plekanec waltz around them like chumps.

The Flyers offence consisted of seeing eye shots from medium distance. Toughness had zilch to do with it. Efforts to characterize the series as anything but puck luck occasionally goes to worse team is a laughably transparent effort to impose ideology over the "facts on the ground."

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03-24-2013, 02:52 PM
  #238
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The fact we failed to score more than 2 goals in 3 of the 5 games sure didn't have anything to do with that, eh?

Copy-paste in 2010. Copy-paste in 2011.
I don't see how that correlates with toughness. Why don't you actually go watch the series?

But seeing how you analyze games, you'll find some way to twist reality around and blame a loss on the lack of a strong 4th line.

I mean just you analysis of the loss of yesterday is sad, claiming that Miller had nothing to do with it, that the Sabres didn't even break a sweat despite Buffalo spending many shifts at different points in the game for 2-3 whole minutes in their own. To point where you even refuse to acknowledge two huge saves on Blunden and Ryder by Miller. You distortion of reality is quite disturbing as is your reduction of everything to the lack of an energy line. You conception of hockey is too Romantic and not actually grounded in reality.

You are a perfect example of why people make fun of and mock the toughness narrative on these boards. You do a disservice to the actual discussion of toughness by exaggerating its need.

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03-24-2013, 02:52 PM
  #239
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Yes, how terrible of him to base his opinions on facts in opposition to your modus operendi.
In a 6 games span, the way players play indicate far more than stats. Especially when these games were:

- A win against the worst team in the East vs Fla.
- A SO win against a depleted Ottawa team
- A game where our goalie stood on his head vs Brodeurless NJ
- An OT loss against one of the weakest teams in the East, Buffalo
- A win to against the powerful Islanders
- A loss again, the 2nd of the week, against a weak Buffalo team.

Wow! These facts he brought up sure held a lot of value. How convenient of him to disregard the real picture.

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03-24-2013, 02:55 PM
  #240
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In a 6 games span, the way players play indicate far more than stats. Especially when these games were:

- A win against the worst team in the East vs Fla.
- A SO win against a depleted Ottawa team
- A game where our goalie stood on his head vs Brodeurless NJ
- An OT loss against one of the weakest teams in the East, Buffalo
- A win to against the powerful Islanders
- A loss again, the 2nd of the week, against a weak Buffalo team.

Wow! These facts he brought up sure held a lot of value. How convenient of him to disregard the real picture.
I thought we weren't allowed to use stats? Also, now the win against Florida doesn't count because they are one of the worst teams? The Habs lost to an even more depleted sens line up WITH Prust in the habs line up. Also the Habs won a close game against the devils earlier in the season WITH Prust in the linup.

How do you explain the 1-2-1 record against the Islanders and the Sabres with Prust in the line up? Really curious how you will spin reality on that one...or will you just tell me that I rely too much on stats.

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03-24-2013, 02:55 PM
  #241
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I don't see how that correlates with toughness. Why don't you actually go watch the series?

But seeing how you analyze games, you'll find some way to twist reality around and blame a loss on the lack of a strong 4th line.

I mean just you analysis of the loss of yesterday is sad, claiming that Miller had nothing to do with it, that the Sabres didn't even break a sweat despite Buffalo spending many shifts at different points in the game for 2-3 whole minutes in their own. To point where you even refuse to acknowledge two huge saves on Blunden and Ryder by Miller. You distortion of reality is quite disturbing as is your reduction of everything to the lack of an energy line. You conception of hockey is too Romantic and not actually grounded in reality.

You are a perfect example of why people make fun of and mock the toughness narrative on these boards. You do a disservice to the actual discussion of toughness by exaggerating its need.
You're the personification of everything that went wrong with this team in the last two decades.

Miller didn't make any outstanding saves yesterday. Our players lacked of energy around the net, didn't provide a second effort to bank on those MULTIPLE rebounds Miller allowed. and ultimetely kept giving the puck to their d-men who kept asking to get beat.

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03-24-2013, 02:57 PM
  #242
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You're the personification of everything that went wrong with this team in the last two decades.

Miller didn't make any outstanding saves yesterday. Our players lacked of energy around the net, didn't provide a second effort to bank on those MULTIPLE rebounds Miller allowed. and ultimetely kept giving the puck to their d-men who kept asking to get beat.
Oh lord.

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03-24-2013, 02:57 PM
  #243
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The fact we failed to score more than 2 goals in 3 of the 5 games sure didn't have anything to do with that, eh?

Copy-paste in 2010. Copy-paste in 2011.
Biron played great, players shot inaccurately from prime positions (which happens, shooting accuracy is pro ballistic rather than deterministic so randomness is a factor) and a ton of goalposts were hit by Habs shooters.


But that's just facts so I'm sure you don't care. Because the story for how the lose would happen if it did happen was already written ahead of time so keep to the script and facts and analysis be damned.

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03-24-2013, 02:58 PM
  #244
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I thought we weren't allowed to use stats? Also, now the win against Florida doesn't count because they are one of the worst teams? The Habs lost to an even more depleted sens line up WITH Prust in the habs line up.

How do you explain the 1-2-1 record against the Islanders and the Sabres with Prust in the line up? Really curious how you will spin reality on that one...or will you just tell me that I rely too much on facts.
Ultimately, no matter what the record show, the way we lost those games this week have a thing in common; this team looked flat. And this has nothing to do with perception. There was no forecheck, no second efforts, no grinding in the corner. And you're up for a huge surprise this week .

Can't wait to read you say "Well, I have a life, ultimately..." when people ask you what you thought of the game. Another great piece of anthology from you.

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03-24-2013, 02:59 PM
  #245
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Oh lord.
Yeah, I know, how shameful is it to watch the games, right?

Miller didn't stand on his head. He allowed TONS of rebounds that we couldn't bury. This is a fact that you just keep disregarding. But hey, don't worry. It's not all that surprising to me.

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03-24-2013, 03:00 PM
  #246
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Biron played great, players shot inaccurately from prime positions (which happens, shooting accuracy is pro ballistic rather than deterministic so randomness is a factor) and a ton of goalposts were hit by Habs shooters.


But that's just facts so I'm sure you don't care. Because the story for how the lose would happen if it did happen was already written ahead of time so keep to the script and facts and analysis be damned.
Analysis based 100% on stats is useless in sports. Anybody who played any sport at any reasonable level would know this.

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03-24-2013, 03:03 PM
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"But... but... it's only our first regulation loss without Prust..."
"But... but... it's only our second regulation loss without Prust..."
"But... but... it's only the first time we get beat up by the Bruins without Prust..."

I can already see it coming. Keep kidding yourself though... We clearly don't need any help right now. We have a great balance on our lineup and are ready for glory

1-1-1 against 3 of the weakest teams in the league. The team has looked the most flat I've ever seen them this year. No big hit, no driving of the crease, no working hard for rebounds. But hey, it's the kind of hockey you like eh? Works great for you. If you can be content with that trash.

And what's wrong with my comparison? Worked great for you when we were 2-0-0. Unless you are hypocritical. But you're not that, now... Are you?
What game did you watch last night? Habs were clearly the better team...

Your post makes you come across as a child who is angry that he is losing an argument. Relax.

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03-24-2013, 03:03 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Analysis based 100% on stats is useless in sports. Anybody who played any sport at any reasonable level would know this.
Thank you, this can never be repeated enough. Have you seen the stats they are pulling out for Halpern in the other thread? I think we just landed Mark Messier according to the stats.

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03-24-2013, 03:04 PM
  #249
Talks to Goalposts
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
In a 6 games span, the way players play indicate far more than stats. Especially when these games were:

- A win against the worst team in the East vs Fla.
- A SO win against a depleted Ottawa team
- A game where our goalie stood on his head vs Brodeurless NJ
- An OT loss against one of the weakest teams in the East, Buffalo
- A win to against the powerful Islanders
- A loss again, the 2nd of the week, against a weak Buffalo team.

Wow! These facts he brought up sure held a lot of value. How convenient of him to disregard the real picture.
Habs are superior to 12 out 15 teams in the East. Almost ever game is going to be seen as easy. The basic fact is the Habs dominate the balance of play against these guys with or without Prust and they get some unlucky loses which are to be expected because hockey is a sport were randomness is a significant factor.

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Old
03-24-2013, 03:05 PM
  #250
HiggsBozon
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
What game did you watch last night? Habs were clearly the better team...

Your post makes you come across as a child who is angry that he is losing an argument. Relax.
pfft... I'm more than ok with my opinions and I'm secure enough to know that ultimately, the last few years were what they were for a reason.

Having puck-possession advantage and scoring opportunities advantage is one thing. Burying on your chances and cashing in is another things. Some call it "luck factor". And there is some. But ultimately, you create your own luck when you're a champion. And the Habs didn't do that yesterday.

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