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Old
04-02-2013, 12:45 PM
  #126
Calculon
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Originally Posted by FlamesFreak4 View Post
Jagr apparently traded to boston aswell
And the return:

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Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie 29s
DAL will receive prospects Lane MacDermid and Cody Payne (Plymouth) as part of the Jagr trade with BOS.

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04-02-2013, 12:47 PM
  #127
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And the return:
We owe Feaster an apology at least we got a 1st.

Man what a **** return that is

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04-02-2013, 12:51 PM
  #128
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Obviously the HF community has not figured out the real value of sellers this trade deadline. Every trade by the sellers made this season seems is them getting fleeced?? Or maybe that is just the value this trade deadline!!!!

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04-02-2013, 12:55 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
We owe Feaster an apology at least we got a 1st.

Man what a **** return that is
Jagr's like 41. And we don't know what the condition on the pick is yet.

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Originally Posted by FLAMES666 View Post
Obviously the HF community has not figured out the real value of sellers this trade deadline. Every trade by the sellers made this season seems is them getting fleeced?? Or maybe that is just the value this trade deadline!!!!
Buffalo (Leopold, Regehr), Sharks (Murray) and the Stars (Morrow) seemed to do just fine getting what are widely considered to be overpayments.

So far, only the Flames have gotten the short end of the stick on every deal they've done. The Jagr trade is still a toss up until the condition on the pick is revealed.

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04-02-2013, 12:59 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Jagr's like 41. And we don't know what the condition on the pick is yet.
Doesn't matter both are rentals Jagr is out producing Iginla, Iginla got a far better package regardless of the condition on the 2nd.

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04-02-2013, 01:02 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Doesn't matter both are rentals Jagr is out producing Iginla, Iginla got a far better package regardless of the condition on the 2nd.
Apparently Cody Payne is a prospect in the same vein as Agostino and Cundari - projects with some NHL upside.

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04-02-2013, 01:06 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Apparently Cody Payne is a prospect in the same vein as Agostino and Cundari - projects with some NHL upside.
Maybe the same vein as Hanowski but there is a pretty big gap between Agostino and Hanowski.

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04-02-2013, 01:08 PM
  #133
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This deadline blows.

Feaster still got fleeced IMO. I think he set the trade market value now.

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04-02-2013, 01:15 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Jagr's like 41. And we don't know what the condition on the pick is yet.



Buffalo (Leopold, Regehr), Sharks (Murray) and the Stars (Morrow) seemed to do just fine getting what are widely considered to be overpayments.

So far, only the Flames have gotten the short end of the stick on every deal they've done. The Jagr trade is still a toss up until the condition on the pick is revealed.
Really Regehr is an overpayment? a 2nd in 2014 and another one not for another 2 years. Its just funny everyone values the prospects on here so high. We need to trade our big contracts and underachieving players. Once it gets done everyone is up arms. What how come our underachieving players with huge price takes didn't get us young talent????

Really isn't hard to find the answer.

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04-02-2013, 01:42 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by FLAMES666 View Post
Really Regehr is an overpayment? a 2nd in 2014 and another one not for another 2 years. Its just funny everyone values the prospects on here so high. We need to trade our big contracts and underachieving players. Once it gets done everyone is up arms. What how come our underachieving players with huge price takes didn't get us young talent????

Really isn't hard to find the answer.
Regarding the Regehr trade, I wonder if they may have overpaid a bit to ensure they got him right away. Regehr was amazing when he played under Daryl Sutter.

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04-02-2013, 01:49 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Skobel24 View Post
Regarding the Regehr trade, I wonder if they may have overpaid a bit to ensure they got him right away. Regehr was amazing when he played under Daryl Sutter.
Between that, and Sutter's allergy to 2nd round picks...
*yes, I know he's not GM

He's only expected to be a bottom pairing defenseman, so it should work out for the Kings. Should be interesting when they face Pittsburgh in the finals.

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04-02-2013, 03:25 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by FLAMES666 View Post
Really Regehr is an overpayment? a 2nd in 2014 and another one not for another 2 years. Its just funny everyone values the prospects on here so high. We need to trade our big contracts and underachieving players. Once it gets done everyone is up arms. What how come our underachieving players with huge price takes didn't get us young talent????

Really isn't hard to find the answer.
It's pretty easy to see the Flames could and should have done better in their transactions. It's great that they're finally realizing what almost everyone knew years ago, but because they don't seem to understand fundamental concepts like negotiating, leverage or asset management, they end up looking like fools time and time again. Most GM's would go after the best possible return; Feaster and Weisbrod seemingly go after the 'diamonds in the rough' and the long shots, thinking they can out smart everyone else.

And two 2nd rounders, even though they're a while's a way, is still an overpayment for a bottom pairing, slow, immobile defensemen like Regehr.

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04-02-2013, 03:29 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
It's pretty easy to see the Flames could and should have done better in their transactions. It's great that they're finally realizing what almost everyone knew years ago, but because they don't seem to understand fundamental concepts like negotiating, leverage or asset management, they end up looking like fools time and time again. Most GM's would go after the best possible return; Feaster and Weisbrod seemingly go after the 'diamonds in the rough' and the long shots, thinking they can out smart everyone else.

And two 2nd rounders, even though they're a while's a way, is still an overpayment for a bottom pairing, slow, immobile defensemen like Regehr.
Dude really?

Iggy and Jay-Bo both had NMC's and a list of teams. What was Feaster supposed to do?! He was handcuffed by Sutter's contracts. He got the best possible deals he could.

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04-02-2013, 03:37 PM
  #139
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Dude really?

Iggy and Jay-Bo both had NMC's and a list of teams. What was Feaster supposed to do?! He was handcuffed by Sutter's contracts. He got the best possible deals he could.
This again? B. Morrow had a NTC and a list of teams. Didn't seem to stop the Stars from getting a pretty good return. Regehr has a NTC and a list of teams. Didn't stop the Sabres from getting a pretty good return.

Peculiar how only Feaster and co. seemed to be handcuffed by these clauses while other teams with competent management don't.

And no, it doesn't seem like he didn't get the best return at all. Not when he goes out and admits they specifically targeted Berro, instead of you know, trying to get the most valuable assets back.

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04-02-2013, 03:43 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
This again? B. Morrow had a NTC and a list of teams. Didn't seem to stop the Stars from getting a pretty good return. Regehr has a NTC and a list of teams. Didn't stop the Sabres from getting a pretty good return.

Peculiar how only Feaster and co. seemed to be handcuffed by these clauses while other teams with competent management don't.

And no, it doesn't seem like he didn't get the best return at all. Not when he goes out and admits they specifically targeted Berro, instead of you know, trying to get the most valuable assets back.
Ok so Morrow is better than a 1st + 2 prospects.

2 2nd's is better than a 1st + 2 prospects.



But the fact is, you can't say which is better for another 5 years at least!! Morrow could flop and our prospects could flourish. Our 3 1st's could turn out nothing or they could be absolute beasts. You CAN'T SAY ANYTHING right now.

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04-02-2013, 03:55 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
This again? B. Morrow had a NTC and a list of teams. Didn't seem to stop the Stars from getting a pretty good return. Regehr has a NTC and a list of teams. Didn't stop the Sabres from getting a pretty good return.

Peculiar how only Feaster and co. seemed to be handcuffed by these clauses while other teams with competent management don't.

And no, it doesn't seem like he didn't get the best return at all. Not when he goes out and admits they specifically targeted Berro, instead of you know, trying to get the most valuable assets back.
Didn't Regehr get picks in 2014 and 2015? That isn't a great return unless either draft is as deep as this. I agree we could have gotten more but seeing what Jagr got with no NTC I don't think it is as bad as initially thought.

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04-02-2013, 03:55 PM
  #142
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Ok so Morrow is better than a 1st + 2 prospects.

2 2nd's is better than a 1st + 2 prospects.
I didn't say the returns for those players was absolutely better than what the Flames got, but relatively better considering the differences in talent and contracts. Considering what guys like Regehr and Morrow were able to return, the Flames should have done better.

And they're prospects sure, but mid-tier to bottom tier ones.

Quote:
But the fact is, you can't say which is better for another 5 years at least!! Morrow could flop and our prospects could flourish. Our 3 1st's could turn out nothing or they could be absolute beasts. You CAN'T SAY ANYTHING right now.
Sure you can. Yes, the first rounders were a big part of the trade, but the other parts sure were lacking considering other transactions. As mentioned earlier, the ends don't necessarily justify the means. Sure the firsts could all work out, but that still doesn't mean the Flames didn't get as much as they could have. Much like how trading Thornton ending up working out for the Bruins, it still doesn't change the fact that they give him up for a almost nothing.

And since the Flames don't exist in a vacuum, let's not pretend that they're the only benchmarks out there. Especially when other executives around the league point out the Flames got the short end of the stick.

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04-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Didn't Regehr get picks in 2014 and 2015? That isn't a great return unless either draft is as deep as this. I agree we could have gotten more but seeing what Jagr got with no NTC I don't think it is as bad as initially thought.
Regehr's value lies in his name and his play almost a decade now. Were he properly valued for what he bring to the table now, he wouldn't be worth more than a 5th. He's a bottom pairing defensemen who's made everyone around him worse off.

The Jagr return isn't bad. Guaranteed 2nd, plus a promising prospect in Payne (who was picked in 2012) and then a throw in isn't a whole lot different than what Iginla or Bouwmeester received, both of whom are significantly younger.

Plus, Jagr just signed with the Stars last off-season. That's smart asset management by the Stars, in addition to not giving him a NTC.

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04-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #144
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Big trade:

Quote:
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger 1m

Los Angeles trades Drewiske to Habs for Montreal's own 5th round pick in the 2013 Draft.#tradecentre

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04-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
Ok so Morrow is better than a 1st + 2 prospects.

2 2nd's is better than a 1st + 2 prospects.



But the fact is, you can't say which is better for another 5 years at least!! Morrow could flop and our prospects could flourish. Our 3 1st's could turn out nothing or they could be absolute beasts. You CAN'T SAY ANYTHING right now.
100% agree with you buddy

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04-02-2013, 04:09 PM
  #146
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Regehr's value lies in his name and his play almost a decade now. Were he properly valued for what he bring to the table now, he wouldn't be worth more than a 5th. He's a bottom pairing defensemen who's made everyone around him worse off.

The Jagr return isn't bad. Guaranteed 2nd, plus a promising prospect in Payne (who was picked in 2012) and then a throw in isn't a whole lot different than what Iginla or Bouwmeester received, both of whom are significantly younger.

Plus, Jagr just signed with the Stars last off-season. That's smart asset management by the Stars, in addition to not giving him a NTC.
It doesn't matter when Jagr signed he was a rental like Iggy and returned less while producing more based on the Jagr trade Iggy's wasn't that bad. Jbo's caphit made it hard for them to move him because ownership didn't want to pay for him not to play. I agree Regehr is pure name value its to bad playing under Sutter ran Jbo's name into the ground. Detroit wasn't willing to offer a 1st period for Jbo so we moved on what other deals have you heard about that you would prefer?

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04-02-2013, 04:14 PM
  #147
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Sure you can. Yes, the first rounders were a big part of the trade, but the other parts sure were lacking considering other transactions. As mentioned earlier, the ends don't necessarily justify the means. Sure the firsts could all work out, but that still doesn't mean the Flames didn't get as much as they could have. Much like how trading Thornton ending up working out for the Bruins, it still doesn't change the fact that they give him up for a almost nothing.

And since the Flames don't exist in a vacuum, let's not pretend that they're the only benchmarks out there. Especially when other executives around the league point out the Flames got the short end of the stick.
No, you can't. Could we have got more? Maybe. But you can't sit and say FOR SURE we could have. We haven't lost these trades until all our prospects flop and our picks turn out garbage. Also Iginla will have to win a cup or two, and Jay-bo will have to make the playoffs. And if these things don't happen, did we win? Because those are absolutely no guarantees.

And maybe, just maybe, Iginla and Bouwmeester aren't nearly as valuable as we Flames fans thought. Crazy talk I know.

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04-02-2013, 04:20 PM
  #148
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No, you can't. Could we have got more? Maybe. But you can't sit and say FOR SURE we could have. We haven't lost these trades until all our prospects flop and our picks turn out garbage. Also Iginla will have to win a cup or two, and Jay-bo will have to make the playoffs. And if these things don't happen, did we win? Because those are absolutely no guarantees.

And maybe, just maybe, Iginla and Bouwmeester aren't nearly as valuable as we Flames fans thought. Crazy talk I know.
It's kind of funny when we talk about the Cammy deal we always hear "we have to wait to see what that 2nd becomes before we name a winner" but when we get the pick "Holy **** we lost the trade"

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04-02-2013, 04:30 PM
  #149
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It's kind of funny when we talk about the Cammy deal we always hear "we have to wait to see what that 2nd becomes before we name a winner" but when we get the pick "Holy **** we lost the trade"
That 2nd might be 31st overall, so that kind of stings.

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04-02-2013, 04:32 PM
  #150
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It doesn't matter when Jagr signed he was a rental like Iggy and returned less while producing more based on the Jagr trade Iggy's wasn't that bad. Jbo's caphit made it hard for them to move him because ownership didn't want to pay for him not to play. I agree Regehr is pure name value its to bad playing under Sutter ran Jbo's name into the ground. Detroit wasn't willing to offer a 1st period for Jbo so we moved on what other deals have you heard about that you would prefer?
Would depend entirely on the prospects Detroit offered. Speculated deal as per LeBrun was a 2nd plus two prospects. Now, if those prospects were of similar stature to what the Blues gave, then obviously it wasn't a good deal. But if the prospects were actually high quality ones, well that changes things.

And other teams aren't going to offer their best deals right off the bat. That's what negotiating is for. It's bizarre why Feaster and co. made the trade yesterday - what was stopping them from pushing it right until tomorrow and try to extract as much as possible?

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No, you can't. Could we have got more? Maybe. But you can't sit and say FOR SURE we could have. We haven't lost these trades until all our prospects flop and our picks turn out garbage. Also Iginla will have to win a cup or two, and Jay-bo will have to make the playoffs. And if these things don't happen, did we win? Because those are absolutely no guarantees.

And maybe, just maybe, Iginla and Bouwmeester aren't nearly as valuable as we Flames fans thought. Crazy talk I know.
Other NHL executives believe the Flames should have got more. That's pretty damning.

Frankly, Bouwmeester gets a poor rep because of Flames fans eccentric obsession with physicality and and the unrealistic hype placed on him. If people were able to put their bias aside and look at Bouwmeester objectively over the last three years, he wasn't a problem whatsoever, and moreover, would realize the return was a poor one. The prospects were mediocre, but the lottery protection was brutal.

And yes, maybe Iginla and Bouwmeester weren't worth that much after all. But it certainly is odd that Morrow, Murray, and Regehr are worth so much more than what people thought.

I mean there's simply no chance the Flames management is inept, rather it's everyone else who's wrong. Yup, that must be it. Just like when everyone was saying rebuild, but the Flames thought they had a rock solid plan that would make all those naysayers look like fools. That sure worked out for them then too. Oh, wait.

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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
It's kind of funny when we talk about the Cammy deal we always hear "we have to wait to see what that 2nd becomes before we name a winner" but when we get the pick "Holy **** we lost the trade"
Assessing that trade depends on the manner in which you approach it. The Flames made it so that not only could they continue to be competitive, but also thinking it might push them over the top with regards to a playoff spot. And from that perspective, it was a complete and utter failure.

The Canadiens made the trade to get rid of a dissenting voice in the locker room, while also shedding some salary. And considering where they are in the standings, it looks like like a complete win for them at the moment.

Of course things may change depending on how all the other pieces play out.

And it's not about the picks anyway. They should have been a given. It's about the quality of the prospects.

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