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Old
04-02-2013, 05:36 PM
  #151
Stewie Griffin
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Other NHL executives believe the Flames should have got more. That's pretty damning.
Source?

And define "executive". Tim from Accounting is considered an executive, doesn't mean he knows **** about trades or player value.

The NMC also doesn't help - if Team F decided to offer more, but wasn't on the player's list, then Team F is excluded.

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04-02-2013, 05:44 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
Source?

And define "executive". Tim from Accounting is considered an executive, doesn't mean he knows **** about trades or player value.

The NMC also doesn't help - if Team F decided to offer more, but wasn't on the player's list, then Team F is excluded.
Posted it earlier in the Bouwmeester trade thread.

The stuff about NMC being a massive hindrance is being way overstated. It really only becomes an issue if a list of teams becomes public knowledge. And even then, if there's more than two teams on the list, and both teams are legitimately interested in the player, then a good GM is able to get a bidding war going. Regardless of whether the player actually intends to only waive for one team. No one knew prior to the trade that Iginla preferred the Pens. Why Faster and co. didn't use that to their advantage, is just mind boggling. Same deal with the Bouwmeester trade.

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04-02-2013, 05:45 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Other NHL executives believe the Flames should have got more.
Yeah who exactly are these NHL executives you keep bringing up? And one or two guys saying the Flames should have got more doesn't exactly make it true. This is a rebuild, it will take time. Unfortunately it sounds like you've already jumped ship. Geronimo!

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04-02-2013, 05:46 PM
  #154
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One Eastern Conference team source thought it was shocking that the Flames didn’t get an A-level or even a B-level prospect in the deal.
LMFAO. Sounds legit.

Well I guess that source knows all.

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04-02-2013, 05:49 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Posted it earlier in the Bouwmeester trade thread.

The stuff about NMC being a massive hindrance is being way overstated. It really only becomes an issue if a list of teams becomes public knowledge. And even then, if there's more than two teams on the list, and both teams are legitimately interested in the player, then a good GM is able to get a bidding war going. Regardless of whether the player actually intends to only waive for one team. No one knew prior to the trade that Iginla preferred the Pens. Why Faster and co. didn't use that to their advantage, is just mind boggling. Same deal with the Bouwmeester trade.
Overstated? It's THE reason why Sutter was the only GM that handed them out like candy and we were a laughing stock. THIS is why. You think it doesn't make it big difference, but news flash, IT DOES.

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04-02-2013, 05:49 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
Yeah who exactly are these NHL executives you keep bringing up? And one or two guys saying the Flames should have got more doesn't exactly make it true. This is a rebuild, it will take time. Unfortunately it sounds like you've already jumped ship. Geronimo!
Well obviously. But thanks the incompetence of the Flames management, it's going to take even longer.

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04-02-2013, 05:51 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
LMFAO. Sounds legit.

Well I guess that source knows all.
Still more legit than the fans here saying everything's hunky dory and that the Flames are super secret geniuses who's only problem is that no one understands them.

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04-02-2013, 05:54 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Still more legit than the fans here saying everything's hunky dory and that the Flames are super secret geniuses who's only problem is that no one understands them.
What you don't think we wanted better prospects? You don't think we were in shock and disgust? But you have to realize that Feaster probably couldn't have done much better. We take what we got and make it work.

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04-02-2013, 05:55 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Posted it earlier in the Bouwmeester trade thread.

The stuff about NMC being a massive hindrance is being way overstated. It really only becomes an issue if a list of teams becomes public knowledge. And even then, if there's more than two teams on the list, and both teams are legitimately interested in the player, then a good GM is able to get a bidding war going. Regardless of whether the player actually intends to only waive for one team. No one knew prior to the trade that Iginla preferred the Pens. Why Faster and co. didn't use that to their advantage, is just mind boggling. Same deal with the Bouwmeester trade.
That could still be "Tim from Accounting"

The NMC is a major hindrance if, say, the Hurricanes were willing to offer way more (say that magical blue chip prospect) but Bouwmeester wouldn't waive to go there.

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04-02-2013, 05:56 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
What you don't think we wanted better prospects? You don't think we were in shock and disgust? But you have to realize that Feaster probably couldn't have done much better. We take what we got and make it work.
Nope.

Quote:
When general manager Jay Feaster was entering into negotiations with the St. Louis Blues, he immediately knew of one prospect he wanted in return for defenceman Jay Bouwmeester.

Reto Berra.
. . .
"We made a mental note when we got the rights to Karri Ramo, if we ever had the opportunity to pick up Reto Berra's rights, we would do it," Feaster explained. "He happens to be represented by the same agent that represents Sven Baertschi and he's playing in Switzerland so Bob (Hartley) was familiar with him as well.

"We've had our eye on him for well over a year now."

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04-02-2013, 05:58 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
I was talking about the fans.

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04-02-2013, 06:03 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
That could still be "Tim from Accounting"

The NMC is a major hindrance if, say, the Hurricanes were willing to offer way more (say that magical blue chip prospect) but Bouwmeester wouldn't waive to go there.
Hence the idea of getting a bidding war going. The Flames could go the other teams interested in Bouwmeester and say "the Hurricanes are offering this, if you want the player, you better add more." And because no one actually knows what teams are on Bouwmeester's list or what teams he'll actually waive for, those other teams might actually believe that Bouwmeester could be a Cane, and if they want the player enough, they'll up their offer. Of course they may or may not, but seeing as how the trade was made yesterday, two days before the actual deadline, it makes one wonder if the Flames actually did everything they could to maximize the returns.

But again, the Flames don't do that. They target specific players, as opposed to getting the best deal possible.

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I was talking about the fans.
Still doesn't mean Feaster and co. couldn't have done much better. Maybe if they actually target good prospects, they'll get one.

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04-02-2013, 06:04 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Nope.

When general manager Jay Feaster was entering into negotiations with the St. Louis Blues, he immediately knew of one prospect he wanted in return for defenceman Jay Bouwmeester.

Reto Berra.
. . .
"We made a mental note when we got the rights to Karri Ramo, if we ever had the opportunity to pick up Reto Berra's rights, we would do it," Feaster explained. "He happens to be represented by the same agent that represents Sven Baertschi and he's playing in Switzerland so Bob (Hartley) was familiar with him as well.

"We've had our eye on him for well over a year now."


He could just be saying all that to save face.

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04-02-2013, 06:04 PM
  #164
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By 'we' I think he meant us fans. The past couple trades should make it clear that 'we' fans and 'we' Feaster/Flames are looking for different things...
A guy can only hope and pray at this point, hopefully the scouts are seeing the right things in these prospects.

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04-02-2013, 06:05 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
The Jagr return isn't bad. Guaranteed 2nd, plus a promising prospect in Payne (who was picked in 2012) and then a throw in isn't a whole lot different than what Iginla or Bouwmeester received, both of whom are significantly younger.
Sorry but how do you label Payne a promising young prospect and not the other two the flames got for Iggy???? Are you trying to troll?

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04-02-2013, 06:12 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Hence the idea of getting a bidding war going. The Flames could go the other teams interested in Bouwmeester and say "the Hurricanes are offering this, if you want the player, you better add more." And because no one actually knows what teams are on Bouwmeester's list or what teams he'll actually waive for, those other teams might actually believe that Bouwmeester could be a Cane, and if they want the player enough, they'll up their offer. Of course they may or may not, but seeing as how the trade was made yesterday, two days before the actual deadline, it makes one wonder if the Flames actually did everything they could to maximize the returns.
That's all fine & dandy, until someone calls your bluff.

And for all your speculation and conjecture, you don't know that didn't happen - it sounds like the Flames were playing Detroit and St. Louis off each other, and wound up getting a 1st instead of a 2nd. That's not a bad increase in value for someone who's gonna eat up more than 10% of the team's cap hit next season.

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04-02-2013, 06:17 PM
  #167
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Sorry but how do you label Payne a promising young prospect and not the other two the flames got for Iggy???? Are you trying to troll?
Promising in the same way as Agostino and Cundari/Berra. I was comparing the trades to suggest the Jagr one wasn't so far off the mark, so to justify the returns for Iggy/Bouwmeester for being actually being better than they were. All of them were lacking it seems, as a result of impatience. Frankly, it looks like the Stars made the same mistake the Flames did by making the trade too early. Very odd how they didn't push it right until the deadline, seeing as how Jagr didn't even have a NTC.

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That's all fine & dandy, until someone calls your bluff.

And for all your speculation and conjecture, you don't know that didn't happen - it sounds like the Flames were playing Detroit and St. Louis off each other, and wound up getting a 1st instead of a 2nd. That's not a bad increase in value for someone who's gonna eat up more than 10% of the team's cap hit next season.
They call your bluff and you're no worse off then you were before. And depending on what kind of prospects the Wings were offering, the drop from a first to a second could have been worth it.

But again, why not push it to the deadline? What was the hurry to make the trade instead of say waiting to see if the the offers don't improve.

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04-02-2013, 06:57 PM
  #168
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Would depend entirely on the prospects Detroit offered. Speculated deal as per LeBrun was a 2nd plus two prospects. Now, if those prospects were of similar stature to what the Blues gave, then obviously it wasn't a good deal. But if the prospects were actually high quality ones, well that changes things.

And other teams aren't going to offer their best deals right off the bat. That's what negotiating is for. It's bizarre why Feaster and co. made the trade yesterday - what was stopping them from pushing it right until tomorrow and try to extract as much as possible?
Yes if they offered Nyqust + Jarknok then it was better but that seems extremely unrealistic. I am just tired of the constant whining that we could have gotten more, simply because nobodies knows what else was offered. Ownership said no to keeping salary so it made the contract much harder to move, we don't know if STL said 2nd or nothing and Feaster could have negotiated up to what we got. I don't think Feaster is that good but this constant whining about getting better deals when no one else was offering anything better as far as we know. For all we know STL was only going to offer a 2nd unless we took the deal today. Again I don't think the deal was that great but given the fact we couldn't keep some of his cap hit the return doesn't seem that far as most people seem to view Jbo as a #2 or #3 defenseman.

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04-02-2013, 07:01 PM
  #169
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"I like it here - I'd like to be part of the solution." - Alex Tanguay on trade speculation

I doubt Tangs goes anywhere.

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04-02-2013, 07:06 PM
  #170
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Calgary Flames ‏@NHLFlames 1m
"I like it here - I'd like to be part of the solution." - Alex Tanguay on trade speculation

I doubt Tangs goes anywhere.
If he wants to stay and be a positive influence on and off the ice let him stay he has been good here.

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04-02-2013, 07:12 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Yes if they offered Nyqust + Jarknok then it was better but that seems extremely unrealistic. I am just tired of the constant whining that we could have gotten more, simply because nobodies knows what else was offered. Ownership said no to keeping salary so it made the contract much harder to move, we don't know if STL said 2nd or nothing and Feaster could have negotiated up to what we got. I don't think Feaster is that good but this constant whining about getting better deals when no one else was offering anything better as far as we know. For all we know STL was only going to offer a 2nd unless we took the deal today. Again I don't think the deal was that great but given the fact we couldn't keep some of his cap hit the return doesn't seem that far as most people seem to view Jbo as a #2 or #3 defenseman.
I personally find the about face on the trade much more annoying. I mean McKenzie would go on record saying the Flames were asking for a lot and that Bouwmeester should return more than Iginla. But once the trade is made, it's well, Bouwmeester wasn't actually that great and his contract was actually really bad, so in that light, the return isn't so terrible. And so on and so forth.

But this discussion is pretty pedantic now. Feaster, for better or worse, is here until at least the end of the season. And the owners aren't going anywhere anytime soon. So all we can do now is hope the Flames don't mess up the draft picks and that the prospects acquired do something of note.

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04-02-2013, 07:15 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
I personally find the about face on the trade much more annoying. I mean McKenzie would go on record saying the Flames were asking for a lot and that Bouwmeester should return more than Iginla. But once the trade is made, it's well, Bouwmeester wasn't actually that great and his contract was actually really bad, so in that light, the return isn't so terrible. And so on and so forth.

But this discussion is pretty pedantic now. Feaster, for better or worse, is here until at least the end of the season. And the owners aren't going anywhere anytime soon. So all we can do now is hope the Flames don't mess up the draft picks and that the prospects acquired do something of note.
Yes I agree but Bob Mac also said that teams were looking for Calgary to retain salary so clearly Calgary was looking for a great trade and not holding onto cap, given that the Flames went with a worse deal over holding cap tells me ownership has told Feaster spending money on players not playing for us is not an option. There certainly more to this story but can we stop talking about what we should have got because we simply don't know how interested other teams were. Lets hope we use these draft picks wisely and hope we don't try to retool by pulling a florida from 2 years ago.

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04-02-2013, 07:22 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Yes I agree but Bob Mac also said that teams were looking for Calgary to retain salary so clearly Calgary was looking for a great trade and not holding onto cap, given that the Flames went with a worse deal over holding cap tells me ownership has told Feaster spending money on players not playing for us is not an option. There certainly more to this story but can we stop talking about what we should have got because we simply don't know how interested other teams were. Lets hope we use these draft picks wisely and hope we don't try to retool by pulling a florida from 2 years ago.
If Feaster was being frank in his post-Bouwmeester trade address, which is a stretch I'll admit, he did seem to imply that that is the route the Flames are going to go down. With Bouwmeester, Kipper (I'm assuming) and Iginla off the books for next season, the Flames are sitting at 35M in cap commitments. If Cammalleri, Tangauy or Stempniak get moved, they number goes even lower.

So just to reach the cap floor, the Flames are going to have to spend a bit in FA. And then it seems like they'll go after amnesty buyouts or acquire cap casualties in trades. So long as they don't handout 4-5 year deals, it shouldn't be too troublesome though. Florida would sign a lot of their free agent acquisitions to four year deals.

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04-02-2013, 07:25 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
If Feaster was being frank in his post-Bouwmeester trade address, which is a stretch I'll admit, he did seem to imply that that is the route the Flames are going to go down. With Bouwmeester, Kipper (I'm assuming) and Iginla off the books for next season, the Flames are sitting at 35M in cap commitments. If Cammalleri, Tangauy or Stempniak get moved, they number goes even lower.

So just to reach the cap floor, the Flames are going to have to spend a bit in FA. And then it seems like they'll go after amnesty buyouts or acquire cap casualties in trades. So long as they don't handout 4-5 year deals, it shouldn't be too troublesome though. Florida would sign a lot of their free agent acquisitions to four year deals.
I posted in the trade section a team I think we see next year it includes signing guys like Roy,Horton,Ryder,Murray. I don't think that is the right way to go but I think it is what we do.

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04-02-2013, 08:59 PM
  #175
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They held on to what assets they had for 2 years past the BB date and it shows in the returns. Thats on the owners Edwards in particular. If Feaster and co. are in charge of the rebuild it will be a nightmare that will make the oilers rebuild look like a quick fix and the Islanders look like cup contenders.

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