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3/24/12: Panthers @ Islanders

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03-24-2013, 07:21 PM
  #201
RainingRats
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Says the guy who's constantly bashing the defense.

Take the best player available, please. If it's Jones, so be it. The idea that defensemen can't produce offensively is also stupid, for what it's worth.

Perhaps one of the reasons why we suck so much this year is because we replaced Jason Garrison with Filip Pylon.

Our defense is also bad, and our two young defensemen are looking like underachievers at this point. Ignoring Jones because "he's not a forward!" is quite the close-minded idea.
Team defense has been horrible. the D men were bad too. Both have been better of late.

I disagree about best player available. Nobody would take a goalie at the top so you don't take best player available. Looking back historically at top d-men in the top 3 picks most have not lived up to the hype. Even Doughty who I'm a huge fan of hasn't lived up to his early hype when he was looking to become a bordeline generational guy, team canada anyone?. Take a look at all the d-men in the top 3 for the past 15 years, we hear the same thing about all of them, all the time. Good d-men, especially franchise ones are extremely hard to project and it takes them a lot of time to develop. There's a user Pavel Datysuk who posts moneyball like analysis of young dmen on the main boards and he explains how a good young NHL d-man at under 22 is almost unheard of. It's an extremely tough position to play too, especially when even if they're big, they're still kids who defend against men. Young d-men simply do not become effective for a long time.

The best d-men of the last decade are found all throughout the first and second rounds because of this. There's a very high uncertainty when picking d-men over forwards who are much easier to project for a variety of reasons.

There's also an argument to be made about the impact of a forward over a d-man. Most of the teams who are very good drafted high impact forwards.

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03-24-2013, 07:28 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Team defense has been horrible. the D men were bad too. Both have been better of late.

I disagree about best player available. Nobody would take a goalie at the top so you don't take best player available. Looking back historically at top d-men in the top 3 picks most have not lived up to the hype. Even Doughty who I'm a huge fan of hasn't lived up to his early hype when he was looking to become a bordeline generational guy, team canada anyone?. Take a look at all the d-men in the top 3 for the past 15 years, we hear the same thing about all of them, all the time. Good d-men, especially franchise ones are extremely hard to project and it takes them a lot of time to develop. There's a user Pavel Datysuk who posts moneyball like analysis of young dmen on the main boards and he explains how a good young NHL d-man at under 22 is almost unheard of. It's an extremely tough position to play too, especially when even if they're big, they're still kids who defend against men. Young d-men simply do not become effective for a long time.

The best d-men of the last decade are found all throughout the first and second rounds because of this. There's a very high uncertainty when picking d-men over forwards who are much easier to project for a variety of reasons.

There's also an argument to be made about the impact of a forward over a d-man. Most of the teams who are very good drafted high impact forwards.
Most of the teams who are very good have very good teams from top to bottom.

Drafting MacKinnon isn't going to make a difference if Tallon thinks that defense is as important as the members of this board. The TB Lightning and Edmonton Oilers are doing really well...

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03-24-2013, 07:31 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Most of the teams who are very good have very good teams from top to bottom.

Drafting MacKinnon isn't going to make a difference if Tallon thinks that defense is as important as the members of this board. The TB Lightning and Edmonton Oilers are doing really well...
Obviously one player wont change things but investing a top three pick into a d-man is a risky move. Forwards are much easier to project. Your top draft pick becomes a cornerstone of your franchise. Better to pick one with more certainty.

Based on the way Tallon built Chicago, I would think he's going with another forward.

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03-24-2013, 07:35 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Obviously one player wont change things but investing a top three pick into a d-man is a risky move. Forwards are much easier to project. Your top draft pick becomes a cornerstone of your franchise. Better to pick one with more certainty.

Based on the way Tallon built Chicago, I would think he's going with another forward.
Drafting anyone is risky. Were that not the case, we would've been very successful the past decade with all the top picks we had.

I'm pretty sure Tallon drafted players because he thought they were best available, not because they were forwards. He's already proven this in his time here (Gudbranson). If he drafts MacKinnon, it'll be because he feels he's BPA. He's not going to ignore Jones because he's a defenseman. NHL organizations aren't that close-minded.

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03-24-2013, 07:42 PM
  #205
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Drafting anyone is risky. Were that not the case, we would've been very successful the past decade with all the top picks we had.

I'm pretty sure Tallon drafted players because he thought they were best available, not because they were forwards. He's already proven this in his time here (Gudbranson). If he drafts MacKinnon, it'll be because he feels he's BPA. He's not going to ignore Jones because he's a defenseman. NHL organizations aren't that close-minded.
The Gudbranson draft didn't have quality forwards after the top two guys. It wasn't as deep as this draft which is why I care so much.

I'd take Mackinnon, Drouin, and Barkov over Jones. Again, BPA isn't always clear, especially when you consider the risk of projecting d-men. Forwards are much much easier to project. After those guys are gone, I'd take Jones. BPA should be more like, most likely to be the best player in a few years. That changes things because d-men are so hard to project.

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03-24-2013, 07:47 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
The Gudbranson draft didn't have quality forwards after the top two guys. It wasn't as deep as this draft which is why I care so much.

I'd take Mackinnon, Drouin, and Barkov over Jones. Again, BPA isn't always clear, especially when you consider the risk of projecting d-men. Forwards are much much easier to project. After those guys are gone, I'd take Jones. BPA should be more like, most likely to be the best player in a few years. That changes things because d-men are so hard to project.
A lot of people think that's Jones in this draft. Some don't. What Tallon's opinion is on the matter, I don't know. It's definitely debatable though.

I just think it's silly that some people are going to have an issue with it if we end up picking #1, and Tallon selects Jones. Makes no sense. This team needs everything. Obviously injuries haven't helped, but this is the worst team in the NHL. I'd love to have any one of those four guys.

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03-24-2013, 07:49 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
A lot of people think that's Jones in this draft. Some don't. What Tallon's opinion is on the matter, I don't know. It's definitely debatable though.

I just think it's silly that some people are going to have an issue with it if we end up picking #1, and Tallon selects Jones. Makes no sense. This team needs everything. Obviously injuries haven't helped, but this is the worst team in the NHL. I'd love to have any one of those four guys.
My issue is that these potential "franchise d-men" almost never live up to the hype. Whereas the high end forwards who separate themselves at the top of the draft do.

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03-24-2013, 08:19 PM
  #208
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id rather draft mac and trade for a top dman in a couple years

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03-24-2013, 08:59 PM
  #209
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I am starting to see what makes markstrom a superstar in the making. He plays like this on 75% of the nights it wont be long until stanley cup banners are raised to the rafters.

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03-24-2013, 10:31 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
A lot of people think that's Jones in this draft. Some don't. What Tallon's opinion is on the matter, I don't know. It's definitely debatable though.

I just think it's silly that some people are going to have an issue with it if we end up picking #1, and Tallon selects Jones. Makes no sense. This team needs everything. Obviously injuries haven't helped, but this is the worst team in the NHL. I'd love to have any one of those four guys.
The top draft pick for the Panthers the last four years:

2009- Dmitry Kulikov- Defensemen

2010- Eric Gudbranson- Defensemen

2011- Jonathan Huberdeau- Forward

2012- Michael Matheson- Defensemen

Yeah, I'd have an issue with the Panthers picking another defensemen for their first pick (if it's #1 overall). MacKinnon is close enough to Jones as far as BPA that you don't necessarily have to pick Jones with the first pick. If MacKinnon is gone then yeah, I'm all in on Jones if he is available.


Last edited by Howboutthempanthers: 03-24-2013 at 10:47 PM.
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03-24-2013, 10:50 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howboutthempanthers View Post
The top draft pick for the Panthers the last four years:

2009- Dmitry Kulikov- Defensemen

2010- Eric Gudbranson- Defensemen

2011- Jonathan Huberdeau- Forward

2012- Michael Matheson- Defensemen

Yeah, I'd have an issue with the Panthers picking another defensemen for their first pick (if it's #1 overall). MacKinnon is close enough to Jones as far as BPA that you don't necessarily have to pick Jones with the first pick. If MacKinnon is gone then I'm all in on Jones if he is available.
And look how long it's taking those defensemen to grow into their draft spot.
Granted, they may not have the potential of Jones, however, it does take longer to see defensemen reach their potential.

More than likely, if Tallon wants an instant upgrade, it would be from a forward like MacKinnon, than a defenseman like Jones who could take 1-3 years to mature.

Not saying we should draft the most ready NHL player, and ignore their potential.*

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03-25-2013, 08:19 AM
  #212
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Also last in the league in goals allowed. Der...
Having a dynamic offense helps control that statistic.

Check out the Leafs. They allowed over 90 goals (not as bad as our 117, but pretty bad nonetheless). But they win because they have a dynamic offense. They can control the puck and they can score.

They already schooled us how to score once this year. About to do it again on Tuesday..

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03-25-2013, 08:26 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Most of the teams who are very good have very good teams from top to bottom.

Drafting MacKinnon isn't going to make a difference if Tallon thinks that defense is as important as the members of this board. The TB Lightning and Edmonton Oilers are doing really well...
TB is 6 points out and the Oil are only 4 out. A winning streak could jolt them back into the race. May or not happen, but to insinuate they're done is a bit premature at this point.

NSH is your model team, right?

Well, it's not like they're holding down a spot either. They're a point on the outside looking in as of today.

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03-25-2013, 09:17 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by PanthersHockey1 View Post
I am starting to see what makes markstrom a superstar in the making. He plays like this on 75% of the nights it wont be long until stanley cup banners are raised to the rafters.
Hes a reason to come to a game. Watching him settle in and take over reminds me of a young mike richter not in style but in confidence Ashe came and stole beezers job at 23. It takes some of the bitterness out of the season.

I have to laugh at the thoughts that he's too young, not ready, more AHL time, confidence breaker, the bad defense will kill him blah blah blah. Rampage Nate has been spot on in posting when he wasn't ready and when he was.

Put together a solid team next yr, make the playoffs and this is the kind of net minder that carries you deeper than u belong.

And get him pls a real backup for next yr to play 30 games as discussed in the goalie thread.

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03-25-2013, 10:54 AM
  #215
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And get him pls a real backup for next yr to play 30 games as discussed in the goalie thread.
If Clemm get his mojo back, he's a competent backup.

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03-25-2013, 11:00 AM
  #216
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Why did Nabokov end up getting the first star? Was anybody of those watching this game? He didnt make any game saving saves. Andrew MacDonald should have been first star followed up by Jake IMO

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03-25-2013, 11:15 AM
  #217
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Why did Nabokov end up getting the first star? Was anybody of those watching this game? He didnt make any game saving saves. Andrew MacDonald should have been first star followed up by Jake IMO
He robbed [Huberdeau, Mueller, Shore]. Anyone else, it's a save.

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03-25-2013, 11:19 AM
  #218
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He robbed [Huberdeau, Mueller, Shore]. Anyone else, it's a save.
Did he really ? I might have missed it because it was so boring

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03-25-2013, 11:31 AM
  #219
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Did he really ? I might have missed it because it was so boring
Dude, to be honest. I didn't see us do anything remotely effective to score. The Isles put better pressure on Marky and he stood tall. Only let in one 5-on-3 goal, the other 2 were ENGs.

One of the most boring Panther games I've ever seen.

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03-25-2013, 11:53 AM
  #220
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id rather draft mac and trade for a top dman in a couple years
Totally agree!

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03-25-2013, 11:55 AM
  #221
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Dude, to be honest. I didn't see us do anything remotely effective to score. The Isles put better pressure on Marky and he stood tall. Only let in one 5-on-3 goal, the other 2 were ENGs.

One of the most boring Panther games I've ever seen.
Agreed, that was what I began to realize during the 2nd period.

Marky was good and clearly the better goalie IMO. Only blemish as you said the one goal allowed on the PP

Boring and Painful to watch.

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03-25-2013, 12:13 PM
  #222
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If Clemm get his mojo back, he's a competent backup.
I dont see it as a mojo issue.

I see it as a aged lifetime serviceable backup in decline now posting the worst stats in the NHL.

Id like Markstrom to work next yr with someone who has had success as a starter and someone we can rely on for 30 gms.

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03-25-2013, 01:20 PM
  #223
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I dont see it as a mojo issue.

I see it as a aged lifetime serviceable backup in decline now posting the worst stats in the NHL.

Id like Markstrom to work next yr with someone who has had success as a starter and someone we can rely on for 30 gms.
This is exactly like how you called Pete Deboer a junior coach. Clemmer had an off year behind the worst team in the league. And fwiw, the New Jersey play by play guy and analyst said Clemmer would make a great mentor for Markstrom next year.

Also, I'd expect Markstrom to play around 60 games. Theo played in 53 last year, I think Markstrom can handle more than the old goalie.

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03-25-2013, 01:33 PM
  #224
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This is exactly like how you called Pete Deboer a junior coach. Clemmer had an off year behind the worst team in the league. And fwiw, the New Jersey play by play guy and analyst said Clemmer would make a great mentor for Markstrom next year.

Also, I'd expect Markstrom to play around 60 games. Theo played in 53 last year, I think Markstrom can handle more than the old goalie.
PD WAS a junior Coach when he was hired here.. Not an opinion just a fact. This was his first pro job. Uncontroverted.

Clemmer IS a lifetime Backup. Not an opinion just a fact.

Clemmer has a great personality for mentoring, my opinion is I have zero faith in him playing 25 games competitively anymore if Im serious about making the playoffs.

BTW Markstrom is excelling with the same "worst team in the league".

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03-25-2013, 01:39 PM
  #225
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PD WAS a junior Coach when he was hired here.. Not an opinion just a fact. This was his first pro job. Uncontroverted.

Clemmer IS a lifetime Backup. Not an opinion just a fact.

Clemmer has a great personality for mentoring, my opinion is I have zero faith in him playing 25 games competitively anymore if Im serious about making the playoffs.

BTW Markstrom is excelling with the same "worst team in the league".
You called him a Junior coach his entire time here and when he left. It's an insult, not a term of endearment. You don't call Dineen an AHL coach...

Clemmer is a backup and he's done well in his role. Having zero faith is silly because we're a bad team and this is an off year for almost everyone. No training camp or preseason matters plus all the injuries.

Markstrom only started to play well since Carolina game when the team started playing better defensively as well. Markstrom is also better than Clemmer.

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