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Old
03-24-2013, 06:12 PM
  #26
NitHeel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I agree with this. Pretty even value.
It's really not. More realistic then OEL, but not realistic.

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03-24-2013, 06:13 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers Time View Post
If you want Couturier we want OEL
OEL > Couturier

A deal around Couturier and Yandle makes a little more sense.

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03-24-2013, 06:14 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
Yandle's good and useful, but not worth a young ELC who you hope develops into a cornerstone
Really? An elite, young PMD isn't worth Couturier or Schenn straight up?

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Old
03-24-2013, 06:17 PM
  #29
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Grossmann and Briere have both been scratched tonight, with Grossmann being a late scratch... Hope they like the weather in Phoenix and hopefully OEL enjoys cheesesteaks.

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03-24-2013, 06:20 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Really? An elite, young PMD isn't worth Couturier or Schenn straight up?
1) Yandle is good, not elite.

2) If the Flyers were a contender, sure, I'm fine with that valuation. But they're not, so spending young affordable high-end assets for a non-elite PMD doesn't make sense. Value exists in context, not in a vacuum.

The Flyers should not be dealing any Schenn/Couturier types for large contracts unless they're in a package for a true elite D-man, and obviously no one is giving that up.

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03-24-2013, 06:22 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
1) Yandle is good, not elite.
Name 5 better puck movers. Karlsson. There, I did one for you.

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Old
03-24-2013, 06:24 PM
  #32
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Yandle is exactly what the Flyers need, and he is a top 10 defenseman. I'd give up a package including Couturier for him.

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Old
03-24-2013, 06:25 PM
  #33
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If the Flyers are committed to trading Couturier for an established top-4 defenseman, I don't believe that they will find a better match (skill set, age, etc.) than Yandle.

That said, I'd prefer any deal happen in the offseason. If the Flyers end up with the #1 overall pick, I don't trade couturier for a defenseman.

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Old
03-24-2013, 06:37 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
1) Yandle is good, not elite.

2) If the Flyers were a contender, sure, I'm fine with that valuation. But they're not, so spending young affordable high-end assets for a non-elite PMD doesn't make sense. Value exists in context, not in a vacuum.

The Flyers should not be dealing any Schenn/Couturier types for large contracts unless they're in a package for a true elite D-man, and obviously no one is giving that up.
http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1467

Study that has Yandle as the second best puck moving d man.

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Old
03-24-2013, 06:37 PM
  #35
WeekendAtBernies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
Name 5 better puck movers. Karlsson. There, I did one for you.
1) Karlsson
2) Letang
3) Markov (when healthy)
4) Byfuglien
5) Suter

If we're talking specifically about puck moving then I dunno if you can argue any of those.

Then the next group are all arguable:
Duncan Keith
Sergei Gonchar
Kimmo Timonen
Alex Edler
PK Subban
Brian Campbell
Alex Pietrangelo
Shea Weber
Zdeno Chara

EDIT: Forgot Doughty, Boyle, and Enstrom... all arguably just as good/better.

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Old
03-24-2013, 06:41 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
1) Yandle is good, not elite.

2) If the Flyers were a contender, sure, I'm fine with that valuation. But they're not, so spending young affordable high-end assets for a non-elite PMD doesn't make sense. Value exists in context, not in a vacuum.

The Flyers should not be dealing any Schenn/Couturier types for large contracts unless they're in a package for a true elite D-man, and obviously no one is giving that up.
Note to the original OP: Couturier is FAR from being elite; in reality he's not even good. 7 points in 30 games is outright pathetic for a player chosen EIGHTH overall in his draft class.

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Old
03-24-2013, 06:43 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Primary Assist View Post
Note to the original OP: Couturier is FAR from being elite; in reality he's not even good. 7 points in 30 games is outright pathetic for a player chosen EIGHTH overall in his draft class.
What does that make the players who haven't made it into the NHL yet?

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Old
03-24-2013, 07:01 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
1) Karlsson
2) Letang
3) Markov (when healthy)
4) Byfuglien
5) Suter

If we're talking specifically about puck moving then I dunno if you can argue any of those.
Of those 5, only Karlsson and Markov have seasons better than Yandle's 2010-11 campaign. The same is true for most of your extended list. I really do not think you are familiar with the player being discussed here. This is a guy that put up 59 points in a defensive system on a bottom third powerplay in his early twenties.

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Old
03-24-2013, 07:05 PM
  #39
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Couturier and Yandle. Cooter was born in PHX too.

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Old
03-24-2013, 07:17 PM
  #40
NitHeel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbk View Post
http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1467

Study that has Yandle as the second best puck moving d man.
Great puck-mover, not an elite D-man. Not sure what we're debating.

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Old
03-24-2013, 07:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Of those 5, only Karlsson and Markov have seasons better than Yandle's 2010-11 campaign. The same is true for most of your extended list. I really do not think you are familiar with the player being discussed here. This is a guy that put up 59 points in a defensive system on a bottom third powerplay in his early twenties.
A single season does not a great puck-mover make. If it does, then Mike Green, Lubomir Visnovsky, Sergei Gonchar, Dan Boyle, Sheldon Souray, Mark Streit, Dion Phaneuf, Duncan Keith, and Tomas Kaberle are all better PMDs than Yandle. And Doughty would be equal.

I assumed we weren't going to be stupid though and compare Keith Yandle's career year to everyone else's. Was I incorrect? Did you want to have a discussion about the entire body of Yandle's work as a PMD and compare it to others based on age, experience, etc... Or did you want to just talk about who put up the most points in a single season?

I like Yandle, I respect his abilities, which is why instead of trolling and putting Souray and Boyle and Gonchar and Green and Phaneuf on the "YES" list, I left them off. Heck, I didn't even mention Green, Phaneuf, or Souray period, not even on the "maybe" list.

All the guys I listed in my top 5 are better PMDs / offensive defensemen than Yandle right now. It's not really even debatable.

And for some of the guys on my second list, I was very generous to say Yandle is "comparable". There are some guys on that list I would easily take over Yandle, but again, I was trying to be fair and you only asked for 5.

I'd love Yandle on the Flyers, but he's not the 2nd best PMD in hockey, he's definitely not in the top 5, and you'd be generous putting him in the top 10.

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03-24-2013, 07:21 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
Great puck-mover, not an elite D-man. Not sure what we're debating.
I'm not debating. I'm merely providing a study which supports the notion that Yandle is an elite puck moving D.

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03-24-2013, 07:26 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by hbk View Post
I'm not debating. I'm merely providing a study which supports the notion that Yandle is an elite puck moving D.
The author even suggests that the findings are preliminary--too thinly based to draw any conclusions...

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Old
03-24-2013, 07:29 PM
  #44
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Does anyone think a deal can be made around Couturier, Alt, and some kind of pick for Yandle and Miele/Shinnimin?

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03-24-2013, 07:30 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
The author even suggests that the findings are preliminary--too thinly based to draw any conclusions...
It is preliminary. Like any stat it is subject to interpretation. That being said it is a study which supports Yandle's ability as a puck moving D man. It helps provide a glimpse of Yandle's game and how he can positively impact a team and is not necessarily the huge defensive liability that many people have assumed him to be.

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Old
03-24-2013, 07:34 PM
  #46
Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o Hamhuis 2 x View Post
Does anyone think a deal can be made around Couturier, Alt, and some kind of pick for Yandle and Miele/Shinnimin?
Why include Alt and Miele/etc.?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbk View Post
It is preliminary. Like any stat it is subject to interpretation. That being said it is a study which supports Yandle's ability as a puck moving D man. It helps provide a glimpse of Yandle's game and how he can positively impact a team and is not necessarily the huge defensive liability that many people have assumed him to be.
I was referring to this point:

Quote:
This is a manual process that I have been doing during my down time (mostly during the lockout), so unfortunately, I only have around 200 games tracked from last season, which means there aren't many conclusions we can draw from my studies in regards to how much exiting the zone leads to driving the play forward. It is still a work in progress, but I should be able to reveal more once I get more games tracked last season and this season. However, I can show some of my observations so far and reveal which defensemen have exceeded and failed at exiting the zone cleanly.

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Old
03-24-2013, 07:36 PM
  #47
NitHeel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
The author even suggests that the findings are preliminary--too thinly based to draw any conclusions...
This - and my argument that he wasn't a great puck mover, just that he's not in the conversation of an elite D-man. Matt Carle really moved the puck well for us, but overall he was a mixed bag. I have no desire to move Schenn or Couturier from a complete non-contender just to acquire a guy who's not a ES/PK/PP defenseman. As a contender, those are sacrifices you usually make.

EDITED TO ADD: Let me be clear, that isn't to say I expect Phoenix to ask for less, just that I don't think there's a deal that makes sense for both sides for Yandle.


Last edited by NitHeel: 03-24-2013 at 07:50 PM.
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Old
03-24-2013, 07:40 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Why include Alt and Miele/etc.?



I was referring to this point:
I feel like getting rid of Couturier the Flyers could use a good young minor leaguer to develop. You could leave them out, I was just wondering. Thinking about it now the Yotes probably wouldn't want another d prospect so if anything they might want a prospect at another position.

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03-24-2013, 07:55 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o Hamhuis 2 x View Post
I feel like getting rid of Couturier the Flyers could use a good young minor leaguer to develop. You could leave them out, I was just wondering. Thinking about it now the Yotes probably wouldn't want another d prospect so if anything they might want a prospect at another position.
If this is about Yandle, Phoenix will not agree to a deal that doesn't include one one of Schenn, Coutourier, or Laughton. Schenn is off the table in my mind as they are not splitting up the Schenn brothers and Holmgrem is not likely to move Luke. That leaves Coutourier or Laughton.

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03-24-2013, 07:58 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by hbk View Post
If this is about Yandle, Phoenix will not agree to a deal that doesn't include one one of Schenn, Coutourier, or Laughton. Schenn is off the table in my mind as they are not splitting up the Schenn brothers and Holmgrem is not likely to move Luke. That leaves Coutourier or Laughton.
My original proposal was Couturier, Alt, and a pick for Yandle and Miele or Shinnimin, so yes I was including Couturier for Yandle.

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