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04-12-2013, 05:50 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'm just saying that the Desharnais line does play overwhelmingly in the opposition zone and gets more chances than they give up - it seems that way watching them, and the corsi and fenwick numbers support that.

Of course they are helped significantly by how they use. DD gets something like 59% of starts in the o-zone, his wingers slightly more, and they are playing against mainly third line competition (though it's not like they are never on the ice against top 6). Even Scott Gomez was able to have favorable corsi when sheltered....

But Desharnais and his wingers haven't just possessed the puck but also produced. They are playing like a second line which is fine for how this team is constructed.

In the future, Galchenyuk might be a better option in that role than Desharnais. But right now Galchenyuk is still very young and is thriving in his current role. He has great chemistry with Eller.

Productive centers are not a luxury you rush to give away; Habs fans complain ad-nasuem about how we don't have tall PPG centers but our surplus of good centers is something other teams should envy. Notice how few offensive centers were moved on the trade deadline.

Desharnais is playing like a 2nd liner on even strength. He's not a 2-way player, but this team has a surplus of 2-way talent so that's really not a problem. The only thing to be concerned about right now is how useless he is on the PP.
Great post.

I would add that this has been a "different" season for our forwards on the PP. Therrien has obviously decided that our PP will be focused on the DMen first instead of using the forwards for goal scoring.

Its not surprising to see Subban and Markov at the top of the list of goal scorers (Ryder is up there as well but I am not sure how many of his 8 goals were in Dallas).

It is also indicative of Therrien's system when you see Pleks with only 4 PP goals for the season.

For comparison, Pittsburgh has a PP that places emphasis on its forwards scoring the goals. Martin is the top goal scorer for the Pens with only 2 goals.

Therrien is obviously playing to what he perceives as his strength on the team, and that the big shots of Subban and Markov.

In my humble opinion, replacing DD on the PP would not provide a significant change in production from whoever replaces him.

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04-12-2013, 05:56 PM
  #827
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About DD on the PP, he used to be better than this, esp. the way he was one of the few that would put himself in the front of the net, even for his size.

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04-12-2013, 06:01 PM
  #828
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About DD on the PP, he used to be better than this, esp. the way he was one of the few that would put himself in the front of the net, even for his size.
I am sure that Therrien is on him about this.

He did go to the net and screen the goalie quite well on Subban's blast last night.

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04-12-2013, 06:01 PM
  #829
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About DD on the PP, he used to be better than this, esp. the way he was one of the few that would put himself in the front of the net, even for his size.
Still doing that, though. Jumped over a PK's slap shot on the goal.

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04-12-2013, 06:44 PM
  #830
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Was listening to Pierre McGuire this afternoon on the drive (I know, I know but just hear me out) , and he was asked about Mikhail Grabovski. Pierre said that his assessment was that Mikhail could be a good player on a mediocre team but that he would not be better than a depth player with a limited role on a good to very good team.

I kinda feel the same exact way with DD. Good for a mediocre to poor team. However on a top team that everyone is gunning for you and that coaches are on their A game, his game is more reminiscent of a depth player.
Regardless of the Advanced Stats, the fact is he plays over 17 minutes a game (atleast), gets pp tjme, gets offensive zone start time and still has about the same number of points as Eller and Gally (who average about 4 minutes les a game and get no pp time).
Both those players are bigger and faster than DD and are younger than him too. They both have better natural skill than him also.
Oh, and Eller is definitely a better defensive player, and Gally may be just as good right now.
And Plecks as he gets older could slide into a 3rd (2b) line role quite easily. DD much less.

I admire DD, but if you think Gally is ready for the center position, I would think that you should look to maximize DD's trade value.

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04-12-2013, 07:00 PM
  #831
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Great post.

I would add that this has been a "different" season for our forwards on the PP. Therrien has obviously decided that our PP will be focused on the DMen first instead of using the forwards for goal scoring.

Its not surprising to see Subban and Markov at the top of the list of goal scorers (Ryder is up there as well but I am not sure how many of his 8 goals were in Dallas).

It is also indicative of Therrien's system when you see Pleks with only 4 PP goals for the season.

For comparison, Pittsburgh has a PP that places emphasis on its forwards scoring the goals. Martin is the top goal scorer for the Pens with only 2 goals.

Therrien is obviously playing to what he perceives as his strength on the team, and that the big shots of Subban and Markov.

In my humble opinion, replacing DD on the PP would not provide a significant change in production from whoever replaces him.
Our PP definitely goes through the defense this year. And it might as well when Subban and Markov are so singlehandedly important.

But it's making the second unit effectively useless. Getting Diaz back could help, but we need more from the forwards, even if in a secondary role. Ryder and Plekanec are producing, it would be nice to get even something from the others, either from Desharnais and Pacioretty or elsewhere. Desharnais was somewhat effective last year, though our PP is much better this year going through Subban and Markov.

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04-12-2013, 07:08 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Our PP definitely goes through the defense this year. And it might as well when Subban and Markov are so singlehandedly important.

But it's making the second unit effectively useless. Getting Diaz back could help, but we need more from the forwards, even if in a secondary role. Ryder and Plekanec are producing, it would be nice to get even something from the others, either from Desharnais and Pacioretty or elsewhere. Desharnais was somewhat effective last year, though our PP is much better this year going through Subban and Markov.
I agree with you about our second unit struggling.

What worries me more is that once the playoffs begin, teams will know exactly how to stop our PP since it has become one-dimensional. I hope Therrien has some tricks up his sleeve to adjust. And if that means more reliance on the forwards and a change in personnel, I am all for it.

Going 0-fer in the playoffs is a recipe for a quick exit.

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04-12-2013, 07:26 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I agree with you about our second unit struggling.

What worries me more is that once the playoffs begin, teams will know exactly how to stop our PP since it has become one-dimensional. I hope Therrien has some tricks up his sleeve to adjust. And if that means more reliance on the forwards and a change in personnel, I am all for it.

Going 0-fer in the playoffs is a recipe for a quick exit.
I'm not incredibly worried. Teams haven't figured it out yet. No reason for it to come to them just because it's the playoffs. I'm more worried about the fact that we'll be getting less powerplays because of the magical no-penalty rules of the NHL. At least this will hurt us less than in past years.

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04-12-2013, 07:28 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
Was listening to Pierre McGuire this afternoon on the drive (I know, I know but just hear me out) , and he was asked about Mikhail Grabovski. Pierre said that his assessment was that Mikhail could be a good player on a mediocre team but that he would not be better than a depth player with a limited role on a good to very good team.

I kinda feel the same exact way with DD. Good for a mediocre to poor team. However on a top team that everyone is gunning for you and that coaches are on their A game, his game is more reminiscent of a depth player.
Regardless of the Advanced Stats, the fact is he plays over 17 minutes a game (atleast), gets pp tjme, gets offensive zone start time and still has about the same number of points as Eller and Gally (who average about 4 minutes les a game and get no pp time).
Both those players are bigger and faster than DD and are younger than him too. They both have better natural skill than him also.
Oh, and Eller is definitely a better defensive player, and Gally may be just as good right now.
And Plecks as he gets older could slide into a 3rd (2b) line role quite easily. DD much less.

I admire DD, but if you think Gally is ready for the center position, I would think that you should look to maximize DD's trade value.
This is exactly the way I feel about DD.

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04-12-2013, 08:03 PM
  #835
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If Eller is going to be as good as people think, what makes you think he'll sign long-term to play behind two 20 minutes a game centers?
I don't think Eller is top 2 center material, although strong and great at puck possesion and retrieval, I think he lacks the vision of a top 2 center. I do think Eller can be a great 3rd line center that can contribute 40 - 45 points a year and play against top offensive lines.

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04-12-2013, 08:47 PM
  #836
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I'm not incredibly worried. Teams haven't figured it out yet. No reason for it to come to them just because it's the playoffs. I'm more worried about the fact that we'll be getting less powerplays because of the magical no-penalty rules of the NHL. At least this will hurt us less than in past years.
You are right about the lost whistles in the playoffs. It can be frustrating. We did get a preview of that the last time we played the Bruins.

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04-12-2013, 09:00 PM
  #837
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Still doing that, though. Jumped over a PK's slap shot on the goal.
Truth:


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04-12-2013, 09:01 PM
  #838
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Truth:

Reminded me of koivu. Captain K used to do that a lot.

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04-12-2013, 09:41 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
I don't think Eller is top 2 center material, although strong and great at puck possesion and retrieval, I think he lacks the vision of a top 2 center. I do think Eller can be a great 3rd line center that can contribute 40 - 45 points a year and play against top offensive lines.
I think you are overrating how good a second line center needs to be.

Hint: Malkin is not the norm... Even Kessler is not the norm.


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04-12-2013, 10:05 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Great post.

I would add that this has been a "different" season for our forwards on the PP. Therrien has obviously decided that our PP will be focused on the DMen first instead of using the forwards for goal scoring.

Its not surprising to see Subban and Markov at the top of the list of goal scorers (Ryder is up there as well but I am not sure how many of his 8 goals were in Dallas).

It is also indicative of Therrien's system when you see Pleks with only 4 PP goals for the season.

For comparison, Pittsburgh has a PP that places emphasis on its forwards scoring the goals. Martin is the top goal scorer for the Pens with only 2 goals.

Therrien is obviously playing to what he perceives as his strength on the team, and that the big shots of Subban and Markov.

In my humble opinion, replacing DD on the PP would not provide a significant change in production from whoever replaces him.
Can we try anyway??

I mean, it's not like we're gonna loose something important that is working well and helps the team. Can we try to have the best powerplay in the league?

We see Eller having the same offensive output than DD on the poweplay in lot less ice time. Can we try and see?? It's not gonna hurt the team to try.

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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Our PP definitely goes through the defense this year. And it might as well when Subban and Markov are so singlehandedly important.

But it's making the second unit effectively useless. Getting Diaz back could help, but we need more from the forwards, even if in a secondary role. Ryder and Plekanec are producing, it would be nice to get even something from the others, either from Desharnais and Pacioretty or elsewhere. Desharnais was somewhat effective last year, though our PP is much better this year going through Subban and Markov.
Subban-Markov are one of our force on the PP, no doubt.
But still, they provided : 15 goals.

Bourque/Ryder-Plekanec-Gionta has provided the powerplay with: 16 goals
Pacioretty-DD-Cole/Gallagher has provided the powerlpay with : 5 goals

Plekanec-Gionta-Ryder-Bourque are getting goals in there.
It's not like everythings comes only from our D.

Although it'S true to say that our system uses D way more effectively,
the first line is also doing half the job of our success on the PP

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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
I don't think Eller is top 2 center material, although strong and great at puck possesion and retrieval, I think he lacks the vision of a top 2 center. I do think Eller can be a great 3rd line center that can contribute 40 - 45 points a year and play against top offensive lines.
As i've said before, Eller played is 2 first years in a ultra-passive-defensive system and in a defensive role. He's role has change this year, and so far, he did well. Kind of normal that is offensive is not as sharp, but it is getting sharper.

He is a 40-45 points 3rd liner this year.....He got better every single year so far, he is only 23 and will get better for at least 2-3 years.

If he is a 40-45 points 3rd liner now, it's not far fetched to pretend he will be a 50-55pts 2nd liner (only powerplay time is missing this year).


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04-12-2013, 10:20 PM
  #841
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I am sure that Therrien is on him about this.

He did go to the net and screen the goalie quite well on Subban's blast last night.
This must be Therrien's 'Myers' strategy for solving the DD issue... Tell DD to go to the net on the power play and then let Subban blast away. Brilliant really.

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04-13-2013, 12:57 AM
  #842
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I think this team is better at the winger position than its been for years. Even if you wanted to move Desharnais to the wing right now, I don't know where you would put him. Perhaps you think he would do better than Gionta at the wing. I don't think he would be better and I think we will resign Gionta for next year.

So if by next year you see a scenario where:
1) Desharnais is surpassed by the other centers
2) He's not physical enough to play winger
3) There are no injuries to either Plekanec, Eller, or Galchenyuk

Desharnais will either have to be scratched or you may have to move one of Eller or Galchenyuk to wing. If we move Eller or Galchenyuk to wing just to accommodate Desharnais, that would be putting him ahead of the team.

As always, I feel the need to add that I loved what Bouillion did sticking up for his teammate last night. He's a true warrior. I would be the first one cheering if somehow we landed Martin St-Louis. For a very long time, I really, really wanted Vincent Lecavelier on this team. This is because I find all three of these guys are contributors to a team. I question Desharnais' contract because I seriously question the small statured, one dimensional guys ability to produce better than our young guys.


To all of you guys laughing at this healthy scratch notion. I compared his healthy scratch to what is happening right now to Yannick Webber. On another team Yannick Webber might be playing as a regular. We just have too much depth for Yannick Webber right now. Sometimes healthy scratches are no fault of the players. They just happen because the player is simply not as good as the other players on the team. So if Plex, Eller and Chucky all surpass him, a healthy scratch may be what happens to him. By next year, I don't see Desharnais being good enough to contribute to the top 9 on the Montreal Canadiens.
Good post. Logical. I agree, but I think DD needs to show us, like every Habs player, what he can do this PO.

I think he knows this too, contract or no contract.

I have hope in DD still, but he has to learn to score goals, min. 20 a year, consistently. Along with 40 assists.

I have not given up on the guy yet, but the PO and first half next year will decide his fate.

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04-13-2013, 01:06 AM
  #843
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Reminded me of koivu. Captain K used to do that a lot.
Seems to be a tradition for our "smurfs" to be screening the goalie. Desharnais and Gallagher have been doing it, Gionta doesn't really screen but he crashes the net. For all the size obsession, the ultra-small guys have basically trained themselves to take abuse knowing it's the only way they will make it this far.

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I don't think Eller is top 2 center material, although strong and great at puck possesion and retrieval, I think he lacks the vision of a top 2 center. I do think Eller can be a great 3rd line center that can contribute 40 - 45 points a year and play against top offensive lines.
A 45 point 3rd liner is basically a 2nd liner on most teams. If as Plekanec slows down we can have two, 2-way 45-50 point lines, we still have a stronger spine than most of the league - the main reason I think Galchenyuk will eventually displace Desharnais. But that's not an issue in the short term.

Anyway, I like Eller on the 3rd line, even if I think he can be a 2nd liner. Because it means we have very, very good depth if he's there.

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I'm not incredibly worried. Teams haven't figured it out yet. No reason for it to come to them just because it's the playoffs. I'm more worried about the fact that we'll be getting less powerplays because of the magical no-penalty rules of the NHL. At least this will hurt us less than in past years.
Well, I think Subban-Markov is effectively un-figure out-able to some degree. It's not the most effective PP we have ever have (considering this team's track record of being PP-dependent) and the lack of secondary options hurt, but we are lucky to see that much skill together. It would just be nice to have secondary scoring, because I like Plekanec and Ryder with Markov-Subban and we can't expect anything from the second wave blueline lead by Boullion.

Because as much as power plays become lessened in the playoffs, they still exist, and we could use any edge we can get. The good news is this is by far the best 5 on 5 Habs team in recent memory, and being the 3rd best in the league for/against even strength scoring is the kind of record that makes you a "c-word".


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04-13-2013, 01:07 AM
  #844
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
I don't think Eller is top 2 center material, although strong and great at puck possesion and retrieval, I think he lacks the vision of a top 2 center. I do think Eller can be a great 3rd line center that can contribute 40 - 45 points a year and play against top offensive lines.
Exactly right. Eller is potentially Carbo, bit bigger. He is the perfect 3rd line C on a contender.

Our problem is no 2 C, and eventually, no 1 C.

Chuckie will be no 2 in a year I believe, and no 1 in 2 years. Where does that leave DD? I do not know.

Really curious move by Bergy signing him that long. But depth is good, and Bergy knows things I will never know.

Let's see the PO and first half next year.

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04-13-2013, 01:12 AM
  #845
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DD just hasn't been playing well lately in terms of cashing in. He has shown he has the potential tons of times, to the point we expect it from him. He just needs to get back to his top gear. Frustrates me to no end when I see him missing important chances. That said, I would much prefer him to Gio on the PP (and I've come all the way over from being a Gio defender. Good 5 on 5. Terrible on the PP). Too bad they're on different waves.

DD also needs to shoot more in situations when there is nobody on him. He's shown that he can bury a slapper. He tends to pass into a mass of players when he is wide open. Kinda the opposite of Pleks this year (are you listening Michel Bergeron?)

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04-13-2013, 08:07 AM
  #846
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
I don't think Eller is top 2 center material, although strong and great at puck possesion and retrieval, I think he lacks the vision of a top 2 center. I do think Eller can be a great 3rd line center that can contribute 40 - 45 points a year and play against top offensive lines.
45 points is pretty close the definition of a typical 2nd liner center.

45-points last year ALMOST gets you in the top-40 scoring centers in the league.

Yes, technically you'll want a center who scores more than that as your second line guy, but some teams don't even have centers that score in the Top-30. Montreal had two centers in the top-30, so did Tampa, San Jose, Vancouver, Boston.

50+ point centers are at a premium in the NHL. They aren't easy to get. Only 33 centers had over 50-points last year.

Kyle Brodziak finished 60th in scoring among centers with 37-points. 37.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Subban-Markov are one of our force on the PP, no doubt.
But still, they provided : 15 goals.

Bourque/Ryder-Plekanec-Gionta has provided the powerplay with: 16 goals
Pacioretty-DD-Cole/Gallagher has provided the powerlpay with : 5 goals

Plekanec-Gionta-Ryder-Bourque are getting goals in there.
It's not like everythings comes only from our D.

Although it'S true to say that our system uses D way more effectively,
the first line is also doing half the job of our success on the PP
Is there a site that shows PP% when a certain player is on the ice?


Last edited by Hawkguy: 04-13-2013 at 08:15 AM.
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04-13-2013, 08:45 AM
  #847
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45 points is pretty close the definition of a typical 2nd liner center.

45-points last year ALMOST gets you in the top-40 scoring centers in the league.

Yes, technically you'll want a center who scores more than that as your second line guy, but some teams don't even have centers that score in the Top-30. Montreal had two centers in the top-30, so did Tampa, San Jose, Vancouver, Boston.

50+ point centers are at a premium in the NHL. They aren't easy to get. Only 33 centers had over 50-points last year.

Kyle Brodziak finished 60th in scoring among centers with 37-points. 37.
That's true, alot of teams have crappy C depth, we have (I think, optimally now/next season) 4 C capable of +/- 50 points. This is rare.

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04-13-2013, 12:48 PM
  #848
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45 points is pretty close the definition of a typical 2nd liner center.

45-points last year ALMOST gets you in the top-40 scoring centers in the league.

Yes, technically you'll want a center who scores more than that as your second line guy, but some teams don't even have centers that score in the Top-30. Montreal had two centers in the top-30, so did Tampa, San Jose, Vancouver, Boston.

50+ point centers are at a premium in the NHL. They aren't easy to get. Only 33 centers had over 50-points last year.

Kyle Brodziak finished 60th in scoring among centers with 37-points. 37.


Is there a site that shows PP% when a certain player is on the ice?
PP% on ice doesn't make any sense as a stat, PP% is based on scoring a goal or not for single power plays and players don't play the full 2 minutes most of the time.

Behindthenet has team goals per 60 minutes for a player which works out to what you wanted. The gap there between Markov-Subban and other D is massive

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04-15-2013, 10:09 PM
  #849
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I just heard that Desharnais lead the forwards in ice time tonight. After his horrible performance tonight and basically this season, what was Therrien thinking?

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04-15-2013, 10:24 PM
  #850
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I just heard that Desharnais lead the forwards in ice time tonight. After his horrible performance tonight and basically this season, what was Therrien thinking?
Another invisible game by Desi Arnaz. Four more years of this crap.

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