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The Rumours and Speculation Thread Part 2 (Post #693: Rumor -- Clowe to the Flyers)

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:33 AM
  #501
Rolex
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Thank God you aren't the GM.
Really? You're paying this clown $4.25M this season for what he has given you and are about to pay him SIX more years at $4.75. IMO, I'd buy him out before Briere. At least DB is only on the hook for two more seasons at a cheap salary cost. Hartnell hasn't averaged 20 goals in a season throughout his career. This isn't the first season that he has player poorly; 2009-10 was another bad year.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:35 AM
  #502
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Hartnell has scored 224 goals in 859 NHL regular season games, which works out to 21.4 goals per 82 games.

Someone will trade for Hartnell if they really want to get rid of him. There's no need to buy him out.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:37 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I have yet to hear a good reason from people who are dead set on trading Hartnell.
They aren't. It's a stupid idea. He's big powerforward who plays well, when healthy, with our 1C and captain.

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
?- Schenn-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Talbot
McGinn-Laughton-Rinaldo

There is nothing wrong with bringing this group of forwards back next year. All they need to do is get a really skilled forward to play at 2LW (Gagne really isn't it). Or they can wait and sign Ryan as a UFA in 2014.

The problem this year has been the D. Timonen barks about being 'ready to play' then goes out and coughs up the puck like a cat with hairballs. He cost us the Ranger game, then blamed everyone else. Way to go Mr. Leader. He's not a #1 anymore. Coburn, as much as I liked him paired with Grossmann, has regressed.

They didn't replace Carle's minutes and Mesz has been hurt. Gervais is a serviceable 6/7 but not more.

They need a solid puckmoving D to play in the first pairing with Luke Schenn, reunite Timonen and Coburn, and play Grossmann in the 3rd pairing with somone else. Gus can be the #7.

?-Schenn (Bouwmeester? Yandle? Someone like that until Seth's ready?)
Timonen-Coburn
Grossmann-? (Gus?

Then, the really tough one, is to decide whether to keep Bryz or not. I'm torn, as I like him, but he's had to carry the entire load. If he's bought out, who replaces him? There are a lot of youngish goalies who need a spot (Bishop, Bernier, Schneider), so we should be able to get someone.

The Flyers need to be patient. They aren't going to really contend for 2-3 more years, when all the young core is a bit older, so they should concentrate on rebuilding the D, finding a young stud G, and a frickin' coach with a brain.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:38 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I worry about the length of Hartnell's deal; look at how broken down Brendan Morrow is at age 34. But I don't think he should be traded unless a contender this year really wants to overpay.
This is my problem with Hartnell. I don't necessarily want to get rid of him, six more years of Hartnell will not work out well in the long run.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:40 AM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Rolex View Post
Really? You're paying this clown $4.25M this season for what he has given you and are about to pay him SIX more years at $4.75. IMO, I'd buy him out before Briere. At least DB is only on the hook for two more seasons at a cheap salary cost. Hartnell hasn't averaged 20 goals in a season throughout his career. This isn't the first season that he has player poorly; 2009-10 was another bad year.
Thank God you aren't the GM for trading a guy while his value is at its lowest literally 30 games removed from a near 40 goal season, oh, and while he's injured to boot. It's just not a good business tactic, regardless of player.

Once you factor in the player, it's a dumber move.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:40 AM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
They aren't. It's a stupid idea. He's big powerforward who plays well, when healthy, with our 1C and captain.

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Drouin- Schenn-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Talbot
McGinn-Laughton-Rinaldo

There is nothing wrong with bringing this group of forwards back next year. All they need to do is get a really skilled forward to play at 2LW (Gagne really isn't it). Or they can wait and sign Ryan as a UFA in 2014.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:41 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I worry about the length of Hartnell's deal; look at how broken down Brendan Morrow is at age 34. But I don't think he should be traded unless a contender this year really wants to overpay.
I don't see it being an issue. He's having a down year, but I expect a bounce back year next year. Maybe noe 35+ goals, but good enough to where people won't be calling for a trade. Toward the end of his deal if it is an issue deal with it then. Bury him in the minors and he doesn't have the full cap hit (though still a lot) or trade him. Maybe he retires. At this point it is all speculation. I'd be equally worried that we trade him and he returns to last year's form on another team. Leave him where he is. Don't trade him or others in his boat like Coburn and Talbot unless you are trading ALL of them and rebuilding (which I don't think the team should be doing).

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:43 AM
  #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Thank God you aren't the GM for trading a guy while his value is at its lowest literally 30 games removed from a near 40 goal season, oh, and while he's injured to boot. It's just not a good business tactic, regardless of player.

Once you factor in the player, it's a dumber move.
Not even 30 games. He has played in 16 games. Trading him based on 16 games is ridiculous.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:46 AM
  #509
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^Exactly.


You shouldn't try to trade a good player at a low value unless it is the last straw. I don't see the point. Hartnell has and can bounce back. He's not old by any means.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:46 AM
  #510
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If we did trade Couts for Ryan, and we were able to draft Mac Or Drouin

MacKinnon-Giroux-Ryan
Hartnell-Schenn-Voracek

or

Read-Giroux-Ryan
Drouin-Schenn-Voracek

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:49 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Codith View Post
If we did trade Couts for Ryan, and we were able to draft Mac Or Drouin

MacKinnon-Giroux-Ryan
Hartnell-Schenn-Voracek

or

Read-Giroux-Ryan
Drouin-Schenn-Voracek
I'm not sold on trading Couturier... but this top 6



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Old
03-28-2013, 09:50 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Codith View Post
If we did trade Couts for Ryan, and we were able to draft Mac Or Drouin

MacKinnon-Giroux-Ryan
Hartnell-Schenn-Voracek

or

Read-Giroux-Ryan
Drouin-Schenn-Voracek
If we trade Couts for Ryan, we want Drouin.

Hartnell - Giroux - Ryan
Simmonds - Schenn - Voracek
Drouin - Laughton - Read

That said, I don't advise trading Couturier for Ryan.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:53 AM
  #513
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I would trade Couts if we could get something that looks like that. I think Laughton fills that 3rd line nicely with Simmonds and whoever else. Although upgrading at D is still a question mark. I would love us to somehow move Briere/Coburn/Mesz/Something to try and get a 1st that manages to get us Nurse or Zad

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:55 AM
  #514
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Drouin will definitely be 2nd line, put him with Schenn so we get him going. If Brayden cant get going with Jdro then there is no hope

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Old
03-28-2013, 10:08 AM
  #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
^Exactly.


You shouldn't try to trade a good player at a low value unless it is the last straw. I don't see the point. Hartnell has and can bounce back. He's not old by any means.
Players who are older than 25 are considered old and useless on these boards.

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Old
03-28-2013, 10:20 AM
  #516
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Iginla is one of my fav players all time, I am really sad to see him go to Pitt.

What is more frustrating is Boston would probably give an arm and a leg for Briere now, and of course we cant trade him.

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Old
03-28-2013, 10:24 AM
  #517
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Players who are older than 25 are considered old and useless on these boards.
Oh god I'm old and useless!

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Old
03-28-2013, 10:38 AM
  #518
JDinkalage Morgoone
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Oh god I'm old and useless!
We are going to trade you to the Pens board for 10 of their 14 year old posters.

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Old
03-28-2013, 10:38 AM
  #519
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
We are going to trade you to the Pens board for 10 of their 14 year old posters.
Are they all COD players on the 360 as well?

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Old
03-28-2013, 10:39 AM
  #520
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Are they all COD players on the 360 as well?
Yes, the Pens board has a deep pipeline of youth. All bottom 6 talent though.

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Old
03-28-2013, 10:46 AM
  #521
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Anyone can be traded. That's the nature of the business. That said i don't think Hartnell should be traded. Hes had a rough year and coming back from a busted foot isn't always easy. i am sure he is frustrated probably moreso then the fanbase is.
Hartnell does have his flaws but he brings things to this team that arent easily replaced. Unless Hartnell himself wants out I am keeping him.

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:04 AM
  #522
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Hartnell is not the problem. Patience is a virtue. His foot is probably still bad.

This team is great draft pick and a good defensive trade away from being good again-- and perhaps a system change/coaching change.

And the draft pick may make the good defensive trade happen if a talented center becomes expendable.

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:06 AM
  #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
They aren't. It's a stupid idea. He's big powerforward who plays well, when healthy, with our 1C and captain.

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
?- Schenn-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Talbot
McGinn-Laughton-Rinaldo

There is nothing wrong with bringing this group of forwards back next year. All they need to do is get a really skilled forward to play at 2LW (Gagne really isn't it). Or they can wait and sign Ryan as a UFA in 2014.

The problem this year has been the D. Timonen barks about being 'ready to play' then goes out and coughs up the puck like a cat with hairballs. He cost us the Ranger game, then blamed everyone else. Way to go Mr. Leader. He's not a #1 anymore. Coburn, as much as I liked him paired with Grossmann, has regressed.

They didn't replace Carle's minutes and Mesz has been hurt. Gervais is a serviceable 6/7 but not more.

They need a solid puckmoving D to play in the first pairing with Luke Schenn, reunite Timonen and Coburn, and play Grossmann in the 3rd pairing with somone else. Gus can be the #7.

?-Schenn (Bouwmeester? Yandle? Someone like that until Seth's ready?)
Timonen-Coburn
Grossmann-? (Gus?

Then, the really tough one, is to decide whether to keep Bryz or not. I'm torn, as I like him, but he's had to carry the entire load. If he's bought out, who replaces him? There are a lot of youngish goalies who need a spot (Bishop, Bernier, Schneider), so we should be able to get someone.

The Flyers need to be patient. They aren't going to really contend for 2-3 more years, when all the young core is a bit older, so they should concentrate on rebuilding the D, finding a young stud G, and a frickin' coach with a brain.
I'd have no problems trading Hartnell if they're committed to a true rebuild. Fact is, as you've described, Hartnell is a "power forward" (and I use that term loosely because the last true power forward that was in the league was Rick Tocchet/Cam Neely - although Milan Lucic is really coming close to filling that role) and at age 31, power forwards begin to see a decline in their production as injuries eventually catch up with their style of play.

If some team were to offer a blue chip forward prospect, a young roster forward and a first for Hartnell, then yes, as a team that's going nowhere, it would certainly merit consideration. Last season was Hartnell's career year and honestly, we're probably going to witness a steady decline in his offensive numbers for the duration of his contract. For that very reason, is 28.5 million over the next six years a wise investment in a forward like Hartnell? I honestly don't think it is.

As for those who say the Flyers are impatient and couldn't sit through a rebuild, here's my response to that: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994. Those were the years the Flyers did not make the playoffs and were a pretty bad club during that time. Even worse, they didn't even attempt a proper rebuild. They just tried adding different pieces to the crap puzzle that was already in place. This franchise has never done a proper rebuild and that's part of the reason why I think they should just blow things up and do the rebuild properly. There's already some very good pieces to the puzzle that's in place - Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, B.Schenn, Couturier, Laughton, L.Schenn, and Grossmann. If they were to shop Timonen, Hartnell, Read and Coburn, I'm willing to bet that the returns would be significant. In the off season, bring in a coach who has a great reputation at working with younger players and this rebuild could really take off.

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:10 AM
  #524
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Hartnell has played 80+ games every season since coming to the Flyers, and had a career year last year. Just because be broke his foot this season doesn't mean he's going to deteriorate in the next calender year or two. I would only look to move Hartnell if it addresses the need for better transition defensemen if we miss out on Jones and take Drouin or MacKinnon.

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:26 AM
  #525
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Huh? Did you take Business 101 in college? Seriously, I know Gagne has been a good Flyer but right now he's a slightly better version of Powe....minimal added value.
He's not playing bad either. The max we could get from him is a 3rd, and it doesn't worth it. In a purely "business" pov, what he brings off the ice is probably better than a 3rd rounder + on the ice too imo. He's far from being as good as he used to be, but he's a good 3rd liner. If we could fetch a first, I'd sure do it, but for a third?? It's Gagne ffs!

By the way, if you want to consider it as a business, Gagne sells tickets in Philadelhia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I wouldn't trade him because the return wouldn't be worth it. He's been ok at best in his short time here since being reacquired nothing more than that. What you just said is a classic example of Flyers fans overrating a player based on some nostalgia.

I'm not overrating him in saying he's worth more than a 3rd.

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