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ATD 2013 Lineup Assassination Thread - Bob Cole Division

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Old
04-10-2013, 04:07 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Who was talking about forechecking?

Why is Gordie "puck winning and crashing the net" while forechecking? Both of those things sort of require that you already have the puck or it is at least up for grabs. Which means you aren't forechecking at all.

In that case, if you have three guys of the quality of Robitaille, Dionne and Howe down low they better be covered or one of them is open. And if one of them *is* staying high in case you do lose the puck battle.. well.. again.. there is no problem because you are either most likely getting a wide open chance when you do win battles or you're already in position for a transition. And most teams don't want to trade chances with those three.

I know this is the all defense draft but come on guys..
I think we're talking past each other somewhat here. The line will almost certainly have issues when it cannot carry the puck into the offensive zone (though with the talent on the line, it will take a strong defense to make that happen). The cycle is another matter, and this line will obviously be scary with control of the puck in the offensive zone.

My honest opinion is that Dionne - Howe is a very strong combination, but I think a somewhat more well-rounded player than Luc Robitaille on the LW would be the best way to complete the unit. But then, I'm a sucker for balance. With the puck on their sticks, it is absolutely a great line.

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04-10-2013, 04:14 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
My honest opinion is that Dionne - Howe is a very strong combination, but I think a somewhat more well-rounded player than Luc Robitaille on the LW would be the best way to complete the unit. But then, I'm a sucker for balance. With the puck on their sticks, it is absolutely a great line.
This is basically how I see it. Gordie Howe won't have the puck on his stick quite as often as is ideal, as the main puck winner of the line, but he's still awesome when he has it.

Edit: Gordie Howe is arguably the best player of all time, but he isn't God. He can't literally be two places at once. If he's just finished battling for the puck in the corner, he isn't going to be controlling play in open ice at that same moment.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 04-10-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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04-10-2013, 05:44 PM
  #328
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People criticized me for the same thing last year when I had Howe on a line with Nieuwendyk and Kariya. I'd say Nieuwendyk is grittier than Robitaille or Dionne, so I think it is a legitimate criticism. Luc is fairly similar to Nieuwendyk that he was more of a battler in front of the net than a battler in the corners though.

One of these drafts, I want someone to just make a line around Gordie Howe that's physically terrifying. The offense around Howe could be sub-par, but a line that has that kind of physicality and force could go a long way.

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04-10-2013, 06:03 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
People criticized me for the same thing last year when I had Howe on a line with Nieuwendyk and Kariya. I'd say Nieuwendyk is grittier than Robitaille or Dionne, so I think it is a legitimate criticism. Luc is fairly similar to Nieuwendyk that he was more of a battler in front of the net than a battler in the corners though.

One of these drafts, I want someone to just make a line around Gordie Howe that's physically terrifying. The offense around Howe could be sub-par, but a line that has that kind of physicality and force could go a long way.

That was my plan back when I thought I had the #2 pick.

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04-10-2013, 06:42 PM
  #330
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Very Serious. Yes you have a better offensive 1st line, but overall factoring in defenseman my team will produce more.

The trades you made to recreate that 3rd line took a large toll on your 2nd line as well as bottom 3 defenseman.

I also am not a fan of how that top line is built. Gordie will have to not only be the defensive conscience of the line but he also needs to be the corner man as well. I really wish you would have selected a better fitting LW then Lucky Luc.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post

My honest opinion is that Dionne - Howe is a very strong combination, but I think a somewhat more well-rounded player than Luc Robitaille on the LW would be the best way to complete the unit. But then, I'm a sucker for balance. With the puck on their sticks, it is absolutely a great line.
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is basically how I see it. Gordie Howe won't have the puck on his stick quite as often as is ideal, as the main puck winner of the line, but he's still awesome when he has it.

Edit: Gordie Howe is arguably the best player of all time, but he isn't God. He can't literally be two places at once. If he's just finished battling for the puck in the corner, he isn't going to be controlling play in open ice at that same moment.

Sweet, 2 GM's actually agree with me!

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04-10-2013, 07:18 PM
  #331
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Edit: Gordie Howe is arguably the best player of all time, but he isn't God. He can't literally be two places at once. If he's just finished battling for the puck in the corner, he isn't going to be controlling play in open ice at that same moment.
Right. That is Bobby Orr.

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04-10-2013, 07:30 PM
  #332
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Right. That is Bobby Orr.

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04-10-2013, 07:49 PM
  #333
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Am I the only one that finds it strange that a lot of ATD GMs seem to deal only in absolutes?

We'll use the Robitaille-Dionne-Howe line as an example, since that's the one being discussed here.

Why are people under the illusion that Gordie Howe is the only guy on that line who is able to go into a corner to get a puck?

You can take the best puck-winner in the draft, put him in the corner with the biggest pansy in the draft, and he still wouldn't come away with it every time. Sure he's end up with the puck 4 time out of 5, but it's hardly automatic. In a battle for a puck, anything can happen.

Guys like Robitaille and Dionne may not be brutes, but they are both willing battlers, and they'll get a share of loose pucks. It might only be 2 out of 5, but some people act like they'll never win a single battle.

You can send Bobby Rousseau in the corner with Wayne Cashman, and Rousseau would still come away with the odd puck.

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04-10-2013, 07:56 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Am I the only one that finds it strange that a lot of ATD GMs seem to deal only in absolutes?

We'll use the Robitaille-Dionne-Howe line as an example, since that's the one being discussed here.

Why are people under the illusion that Gordie Howe is the only guy on that line who is able to go into a corner to get a puck?

You can take the best puck-winner in the draft, put him in the corner with the biggest pansy in the draft, and he still wouldn't come away with it every time. Sure he's end up with the puck 4 time out of 5, but it's hardly automatic. In a battle for a puck, anything can happen.

Guys like Robitaille and Dionne may not be brutes, but they are both willing battlers, and they'll get a share of loose pucks. It might only be 2 out of 5, but some people act like they'll never win a single battle.

You can send Bobby Rousseau in the corner with Wayne Cashman, and Rousseau would still come away with the odd puck.
Gordie Howe is the only one on the line who will consistently win battles in the corners against ATD-calibre 1st pairing defensemen.

If Marcel Dionne is in the corner with someone like Earl Seibert, I see Howe having to come help him out sometimes. That doesn't mean he always has to help him out.

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04-10-2013, 09:02 PM
  #335
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Am I the only one that finds it strange that a lot of ATD GMs seem to deal only in absolutes? ...
They're Sith.

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04-10-2013, 09:29 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Gordie Howe is the only one on the line who will consistently win battles in the corners against ATD-calibre 1st pairing defensemen.

If Marcel Dionne is in the corner with someone like Earl Seibert, I see Howe having to come help him out sometimes. That doesn't mean he always has to help him out.
What is consistently? If you want a guy to win 90 percent, he doesn't exist. Even the best guys in this league are going to win at best 65 percent of their battles. Guys like Dionne are probably going to win less than half, but not by a whole lot - maybe 45 percent.

As for Dionne needing help against Seibert, that's no more true than any other case. Any good hockey system is based around support, so both teams are almost certainly going to have 2 guys battling for pucks - one in the trench, and one to support.

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04-10-2013, 10:33 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
What is consistently? If you want a guy to win 90 percent, he doesn't exist. Even the best guys in this league are going to win at best 65 percent of their battles. Guys like Dionne are probably going to win less than half, but not by a whole lot - maybe 45 percent. ...
Hey, don't bring reality into the ATD!

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04-10-2013, 11:01 PM
  #338
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What is consistently? If you want a guy to win 90 percent, he doesn't exist. Even the best guys in this league are going to win at best 65 percent of their battles. Guys like Dionne are probably going to win less than half, but not by a whole lot - maybe 45 percent.

As for Dionne needing help against Seibert, that's no more true than any other case. Any good hockey system is based around support, so both teams are almost certainly going to have 2 guys battling for pucks - one in the trench, and one to support.
I think we can all agree that nobody is going to win 90 percent of the pucks he fights for.

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04-10-2013, 11:34 PM
  #339
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I think we can all agree that nobody is going to win 90 percent of the pucks he fights for.
So a like with Gordie Howe, who is as probably going to be one of the 65 percent guys is paired with Dionne (a 45) and Robataille (a 40), then the line comes out to about average in terms of winning pucks.

Sure they'll be better off with Howe in the corner, but just because he isn't doesn't mean the other two won't be able to win the puck and pass to him.

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04-10-2013, 11:35 PM
  #340
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I think we can all agree that nobody is going to win 90 percent of the pucks he fights for.
Then why do we treat some guys like they'll win 10 percent?

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04-10-2013, 11:52 PM
  #341
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So a like with Gordie Howe, who is as probably going to be one of the 65 percent guys is paired with Dionne (a 45) and Robataille (a 40), then the line comes out to about average in terms of winning pucks.

Sure they'll be better off with Howe in the corner, but just because he isn't doesn't mean the other two won't be able to win the puck and pass to him.
I think Dionne is quite a bit softer than Luc.

The point is that Howe isn't playing his puck possession game when he's doing all the dirty work for the line, and I think that decreases his production just a tad. Edit: Even with that, it's still a scary line obviously. You could put Aki Berg next to Howe and Dionne, and it would be a pretty scary line.

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Then why do we treat some guys like they'll win 10 percent?
I don't know if anyone does this.

We talk about it because it's easier than inserting qualifiers every time we compare two players.


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04-11-2013, 04:02 AM
  #342
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Well, I have finished putting the scouting reports into Sergei Gonchar's biography, so I hope people will read through it.

I glossed over a lot of the offensive stuff, since the numbers tell the story there. I did, however, include just about everything about his defensive play - positive and negative. The only things I deliberately did not post were things that were cut-paste from the previous year.

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04-11-2013, 05:28 AM
  #343
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Gonchars defensive play in the cup finals vs Detorit was outstanding too. I was very impressed with him. Physical and punishing.

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04-11-2013, 07:58 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
One of these drafts, I want someone to just make a line around Gordie Howe that's physically terrifying. The offense around Howe could be sub-par, but a line that has that kind of physicality and force could go a long way.
The Jackson - Abel - Howe line on TDMM's championship team was extremely physical, even if less was known about Jackson's grit at that point. That was a really great line.

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04-11-2013, 10:13 AM
  #345
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Shanahan - Lindros - Howe?

My guess is that Sturm would prefer Laraque on the LW tho

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04-11-2013, 10:57 AM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
What is consistently? If you want a guy to win 90 percent, he doesn't exist. Even the best guys in this league are going to win at best 65 percent of their battles. Guys like Dionne are probably going to win less than half, but not by a whole lot - maybe 45 percent.

As for Dionne needing help against Seibert, that's no more true than any other case. Any good hockey system is based around support, so both teams are almost certainly going to have 2 guys battling for pucks - one in the trench, and one to support.
Agreed. It's 35-65% at best and skilled players such as Dionne are going to win 45% of the time. There's puck and stick handling and skating skills involved, not just brute strength. It's not weightlifting. Your point about the support system and the second player supporting is well made. You sound like our local AHL coach. Funny bounces and luck are factors. As you have pointed out before there's no such label as "puck winner" even used outside the ATD.

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04-11-2013, 11:13 AM
  #347
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Agreed. It's 35-65% at best and skilled players such as Dionne are going to win 45% of the time. There's puck and stick handling and skating skills involved, not just brute strength. It's not weightlifting. Your point about the support system and the second player supporting is well made. You sound like our local AHL coach. Funny bounces and luck are factors. As you have pointed out before there's no such label as "puck winner" even used outside the ATD.
There is no label "puck winner" used outside the ATD, but the majority of North American hockey coaches try to get at least one "physical presence" on each of their lines if they can help it. .

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04-11-2013, 01:42 PM
  #348
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There is no label "puck winner" used outside the ATD, but the majority of North American hockey coaches try to get at least one "physical presence" on each of their lines if they can help it. .
Which sadly makes the line ineffective as in Abdelkader with Dastyuk...

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