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Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

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Old
05-06-2013, 03:52 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
In before the hippies ask how tough guys prevent injuries!
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
This is one Leaf fan who understands playoff hockey.

You need a blend of skill and size to win. Where are those Greenpeace activists among us hiding now?
The two worst arguments came from the same side. I don't know if it's sad for righty people or for the Habs fans that support goons. A goon is still useless as long as the other player say 'no'. We must add bigger and more physical, not worst, the goal is still scoring goals and winning cups. We must add Prust/Matt Martin/Chris Neil type of players on the fourth line, not Frazer McLaren, Colton Orr, Matt Kassian that aren't even ECHL level hockey player. If Bergevin wants Bordeleau as a 13th forward, fine, but as a 13th forward. A 4-5 minutes goon means that we should over-play another winger and in the playoffs, our players risk to be tired of playing additional minutes.

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05-06-2013, 03:57 PM
  #427
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The two worst arguments came from the same side. I don't know if it's sad for righty people or for the Habs fans that support goons. A goon is still useless as long as the other player say 'no'. We must add bigger and more physical, not worst, the goal is still scoring goals and winning cups. We must add Prust/Matt Martin/Chris Neil type of players on the fourth line, not Frazer McLaren, Colton Orr, Matt Kassian that aren't even ECHL level hockey player. If Bergevin wants Bordeleau as a 13th forward, fine, but as a 13th forward. A 4-5 minutes goon means that we should over-play another winger and in the playoffs, our players risk to be tired of playing additional minutes.
the top6 wasn't supposed to be tired because of the 11min 4th line this year? Where are Plekanec, Ryder, Gionta, Pac and the smurf? They play like a bunch of tired loser

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05-06-2013, 04:11 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't think I have ever seen any Habs fan who "likes it soft". All fans want a bigger/tougher team. But the key is "at what cost". Most fans don't want a pure enforcer/goon, we had a poor experience with one of our last ones (Laraque) and they seem to be a dying breed (or at least a breed of questionable usefulness) league-wide. But at the same time, the vast majority of Habs fans I think do want a bigger/tougher team. Just with bigger/tougher players who can play more than the typical enforcer/goon can. I'd take Desharnais over le good du jour on waivers, for example. Desharnais, for all his limitations, is just that much better as a hockey player. But I'm all for getting guys like Clowe or Clarkson, for example. It ends up being a cost/benefit analysis, and it doesn't always favour acquiring the tough guy. But it's still a general design goal/desire for most of us.
Good post.

Part of the problem is that Bergevin and the team are a victim of their own success. In the beginning everyone seemed satisfied with the idea of a well-planned, methodical rebuild but unexpected success in the regular season caused expectations to rise to unrealistic levels and for patience to wear thin very quickly.

There is still deadwood and bad contracts that need to be moved. It doensn't happen overnight. With short term acquisitons like Armstrong, Ryder and Bouillon it was clear to me that Bergevin was buying time. If the team could enjoy a little success in the meantime it would be a bonus.

I believe the Habs will be actively trying to upgrade the team when the season is over. It's almost humorous to see some of the ideas posted here in the expectation that the team would be vaulted to a new level by over-paying one veteran power forward who might or might not be on the downside of their careers. The odds are long that it would work and in the meantime, valuable cap space is tied up.

I really hope that Bergevin doesn't lose focus or a grasp on reality. Management needs to keep working diligently to build this franchise for long term success and forget about signing guys that had good stats three years ago.

I know it's easy to get caught up the enthusiasm of exciting year but that is when mistakes can be made.

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05-06-2013, 04:12 PM
  #429
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the top6 wasn't supposed to be tired because of the 11min 4th line this year? Where are Plekanec, Ryder, Gionta, Pac and the smurf? They play like a bunch of tired loser
Like in game 1 and 2... yeah! They were a bunch of tired looser. Oh wait... ! They played a horrible game yesterday. I want them to be physical and win games. I'm a hippie for that I guess. The fact remain, a goon is useless if the other player says 'no'. Chris Neil/Matt Martin/Brandon Prust >>>>>> Any goon. Because they are actually good hockey player too and they help top-6 players because they can be physical, fight, hit +, they take pressure off them defensively and, somewhat offensively.

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05-06-2013, 04:12 PM
  #430
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May I recapitulate what the majority of the goon-lovers around here wish:

1. Get rid of DD-Gionta-Ryder-Colby-Moen-Bou-Diaz-Weber-Gorges and all the rookies under 6 foot tall or blonde (except Gallagher of course)

2. Draft, trade for, kidnap or get UFA with grits and toughness, who are tall, will bodycheck all year round and can fight like beast, if they can beat up the likes of Lucic, it is a bonus.

3. Oh yeah...they also need to be very good offense speaking and gods on PK.

4. Of course, this need to be done before start of next season....

I love you guys!!!!

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05-06-2013, 04:13 PM
  #431
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its not size, its about a style. we have to play tougher. i'd use gionta to get clarkson to join the habs as they were former teammates, go after torres too...

maybe add another dman with pugnacity as well!

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05-06-2013, 04:42 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
so you'd have given nashville's 2nd and our 3rd (more like our second since the 3rd he was traded for was florida's) for a rental?

that's not a price id be willing to pay. i'd rather take my chances at getting him in FA. in my opinion, marc did the right move by not selling our future for a quick gain - something that you are always first to criticize gauthier about.
People are forgetting that Clowe was wanting a sign and trade deal.

Gauthier's poor additions were Drewiske-like. Ineffective band aids that did little to address significant problems on the team.

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05-06-2013, 04:52 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't think I have ever seen any Habs fan who "likes it soft". All fans want a bigger/tougher team. But the key is "at what cost". Most fans don't want a pure enforcer/goon, we had a poor experience with one of our last ones (Laraque) and they seem to be a dying breed (or at least a breed of questionable usefulness) league-wide. But at the same time, the vast majority of Habs fans I think do want a bigger/tougher team. Just with bigger/tougher players who can play more than the typical enforcer/goon can. I'd take Desharnais over le goon du jour on waivers, for example. Desharnais, for all his limitations, is just that much better as a hockey player. But I'm all for getting guys like Clowe or Clarkson, for example. It ends up being a cost/benefit analysis, and it doesn't always favour acquiring the tough guy. But it's still a general design goal/desire for most of us.
There is a huge disconnect between what some people are saying that they want or do not want for the Habs and the reality that we are seeing in the NHL.

Chicago, the best team in the League, dressed Brandon Bollig last night.

Toronto has Orr and McLaren.

Boston could easily sit Thornton to put in a more offensive oriented player like Soderberg, Daugavins.

Ottawa continues to play Kassian.


And here we are still debating the merits of having a tough guy/enforcer on our roster when reality is happening all around the NHL.

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05-06-2013, 05:00 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Care to post an example of him giving up the puck because he's scared to get hit? It's amazing that you have such a low opinion of Galchenyuk's character.



Therrien whinning to the media has nothing to do with players standing up against 'disrespect'.



An enforcer doesn't prevent either of those plays, just like Ottawa's enforcer's didn't prevent us from gooning it up at the end of the game.



They scored 2 goals after the line brawl, but don't let facts get in the way. Not too mention White, Bouillon, Moen, Tinordi, Armstrong are not our skill guys.

Look it's perfectly fine to want an enforcer because you want to get revenge, but stop pretending like it actually makes the difference between winning and losing.
YouTube is your friend. Look it up. If you watched CBC, Bob Cole and his sidekick replayed Chuckie giving up the puck as Kyle Turris skated in for a hit. That is not a reflection of his character by me. That is seeing what happened with my own eyes and then having to watch it again on the replay.

To the rest of your post, as I stated earlier, I dont give a damn what you believe in because the NHL is proving your way of thinking to be misguided.

And I really dont care to try to convince someone who loves and embraces his team being the victim.

PS. White has more goal(s) than 17 other Habs players. Glad that you noticed my "skill" comment.

And why do you have such low opinion on the character and ability of Tinordi that you call him a non-skilled player? (See how that works?)

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05-06-2013, 11:09 PM
  #435
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Interesting............

The Boston Bruins blow out the Toronto Maple Leafs tonight 5-2.

The two toughest teams in the League. Not one single fight.

Anyone in the anti-fighting/anti-enforcer crowd want to handle this question......................

Why no fights tonight in a blowout game between the Leafs and Bruins?

Especially when compared to the 200+ PIMs and multiple fights involving the Canadiens........the poster child of anti-enforcer in the League.

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05-07-2013, 12:08 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
People are forgetting that Clowe was wanting a sign and trade deal.

Gauthier's poor additions were Drewiske-like. Ineffective band aids that did little to address significant problems on the team.
you are referring to this rumor i presume

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ighlight=clowe

i'll quote you the good stuff

Quote:
Speaking of Clowe, he gave up on his sign-and- trade demand from teams when he couldn't find anybody willing to give him an eight-year deal in the range of $51/2-6 million per season.
you'd really give him that much?

and then people complain about the habs giving out bad contracts

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05-07-2013, 12:28 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
you are referring to this rumor i presume

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ighlight=clowe

i'll quote you the good stuff



you'd really give him that much?

and then people complain about the habs giving out bad contracts
Ya and people are gushing over Clarkson wanting to give him $5.5 per 5. I was reading on another board of a team wanting him also and one person brougt up the stat that he had like 6 points in his last 36 games after his hot start. Guys that play tough physical minutes start slowing down after 30 like Clowe has and Moen

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05-07-2013, 07:37 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There is a huge disconnect between what some people are saying that they want or do not want for the Habs and the reality that we are seeing in the NHL.

Chicago, the best team in the League, dressed Brandon Bollig last night.

Toronto has Orr and McLaren.

Boston could easily sit Thornton to put in a more offensive oriented player like Soderberg, Daugavins.

Ottawa continues to play Kassian.


And here we are still debating the merits of having a tough guy/enforcer on our roster when reality is happening all around the NHL.
Go through 16 playoff teams and count the number of pure goons/enforcers who have played every game for their team. This year and last. List them here. I don't think anybody said it "never happens", just that a team could hardly be called unusual or even in the minority by not having one. Homework assignment for you.

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05-07-2013, 10:26 AM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Go through 16 playoff teams and count the number of pure goons/enforcers who have played every game for their team. This year and last. List them here. I don't think anybody said it "never happens", just that a team could hardly be called unusual or even in the minority by not having one. Homework assignment for you.
I've already graduated from college years ago so no more homework from me.

No absolutes in the world but the two best teams in the NHL have enforcers. Chicago dresses theirs in the playoffs.

And Ottawa will have Kassian on ice tonight to assist Neil.

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05-07-2013, 10:47 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I've already graduated from college years ago so no more homework from me.

No absolutes in the world but the two best teams in the NHL have enforcers. Chicago dresses theirs in the playoffs.

And Ottawa will have Kassian on ice tonight to assist Neil.
So then you acknowlege that those are basically the exceptions, or at least the minority. I guess it's difficult to decide what is "cutting edge" and what is more like "out-dated" thinking in that case. Maybe the handful of teams now using goons are part of a pioneering upswing, who knows. Or maybe it's just situational? I'm pretty happy to see Kassian in the lineup against us, anyway, I can see pretty clearly he sucks on the ice and gives us a (marginally) better chance of winning. I wish we had Chris Neil, though, for sure.

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05-07-2013, 10:51 AM
  #441
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Like in game 1 and 2... yeah! They were a bunch of tired looser. Oh wait... ! They played a horrible game yesterday. I want them to be physical and win games. I'm a hippie for that I guess. The fact remain, a goon is useless if the other player says 'no'. Chris Neil/Matt Martin/Brandon Prust >>>>>> Any goon. Because they are actually good hockey player too and they help top-6 players because they can be physical, fight, hit +, they take pressure off them defensively and, somewhat offensively.
none of them were good in game 1 and 2!

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05-07-2013, 10:57 AM
  #442
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I've already graduated from college years ago so no more homework from me.

No absolutes in the world but the two best teams in the NHL have enforcers. Chicago dresses theirs in the playoffs.

And Ottawa will have Kassian on ice tonight to assist Neil.
you keep bringing chicago like their conn smythe, norris, calder, numerous junior and international awards, silver and gold medalists winner didn't matter in your argument. and i could add selke and another calder finalist in there just to pile it on

oh, and the stanley cup

i'd dress an entire line of goons with that roster and never look back.


Last edited by MasterDecoy: 05-07-2013 at 11:03 AM. Reason: their/there/they're
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05-07-2013, 11:37 AM
  #443
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YouTube is your friend. Look it up. If you watched CBC, Bob Cole and his sidekick replayed Chuckie giving up the puck as Kyle Turris skated in for a hit. That is not a reflection of his character by me. That is seeing what happened with my own eyes and then having to watch it again on the replay.

To the rest of your post, as I stated earlier, I dont give a damn what you believe in because the NHL is proving your way of thinking to be misguided.

And I really dont care to try to convince someone who loves and embraces his team being the victim.

PS. White has more goal(s) than 17 other Habs players. Glad that you noticed my "skill" comment.

And why do you have such low opinion on the character and ability of Tinordi that you call him a non-skilled player? (See how that works?)
Didn't watch the game on CBC, and don't see it on youtube.

The number of heavyweight enforcers in the NHL has been on the decline for a number of years now. So if anything the NHL is proving your way of thinking to be misguided.

How have I embraced being the victim. You know which teams love playing the victim? Boston and Toronto.

I never said anything about his character, and in the context of an NHL player, Tinordi is not a skilled player. That's not an insult. Prust is not a skilled player either but I'd take him on my team any day.

And as for why Toronto didn't goon it up, maybe it had something to do with the 3rd period being a 2 goal game for nearly 18mins. So they only had the last minute to try to goon it up, and there isn't really any bad blood. If Grabovski was injured because of Ference I think we would've seen a lot more gooning it up.

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05-07-2013, 12:20 PM
  #444
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So then you acknowlege that those are basically the exceptions, or at least the minority. I guess it's difficult to decide what is "cutting edge" and what is more like "out-dated" thinking in that case. Maybe the handful of teams now using goons are part of a pioneering upswing, who knows. Or maybe it's just situational? I'm pretty happy to see Kassian in the lineup against us, anyway, I can see pretty clearly he sucks on the ice and gives us a (marginally) better chance of winning. I wish we had Chris Neil, though, for sure.
I simply pointed out teams who are employing enforcers in the playoffs in response to the meme of "there is no fighting in the playoffs" that we got to read about for so long.

I specifically chose Chicago because they are the best team in the League this season and they carry Bollig who is not a threat to score.

How can anyone quantify enforcers as out-dated or cutting edge since a lot of teams have always had them. Pittsburgh has MacIntyre and dressed him for when they played Ottawa because of the Karlsson incident. Against the Rangers, they dont need him so he is in the Press Box. So they use theirs for situational purposes.

The way to defuse tension between two teams is to put your tough guy on the ice at the beginning of the game and let them fight it out to start. Neil was trying to get Prust to go on his first shift. Prust is clearly still injured and he declined. That green-lighted Neil to ratchet up his pounding on our small skill guys.

Kassian and Neil will do what they did last game. If Moen or White or anyone else does not step up to fight in the beginning of the game, look for more cross-checks to Subban's head and Gallagher getting run at every chance.

Any comments on what I noted in an earlier post about the lack of fights in the Bruins/Leafs game last night?

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05-07-2013, 12:27 PM
  #445
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Didn't watch the game on CBC, and don't see it on youtube.

The number of heavyweight enforcers in the NHL has been on the decline for a number of years now. So if anything the NHL is proving your way of thinking to be misguided.

How have I embraced being the victim. You know which teams love playing the victim? Boston and Toronto.

I never said anything about his character, and in the context of an NHL player, Tinordi is not a skilled player. That's not an insult. Prust is not a skilled player either but I'd take him on my team any day.

And as for why Toronto didn't goon it up, maybe it had something to do with the 3rd period being a 2 goal game for nearly 18mins. So they only had the last minute to try to goon it up, and there isn't really any bad blood. If Grabovski was injured because of Ference I think we would've seen a lot more gooning it up.
I dont understand why you keep bringing up irrelevant points.

It is irrelevant if enforcers are on the decline when we are playing a team that is physically abusing our skill players and have an enforcer or two in their lineup. And then there is Pittsburgh, Boston and Toronto who have enforcers in their lineups and rosters.

You came close on your reply regarding the Leafs/Bruins series but you cannot admit the reason why there is no "bad blood" between those two teams. For if you did, it would destroy your own argument.

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05-07-2013, 12:33 PM
  #446
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Interesting............

The Boston Bruins blow out the Toronto Maple Leafs tonight 5-2.

The two toughest teams in the League. Not one single fight.

Anyone in the anti-fighting/anti-enforcer crowd want to handle this question......................

Why no fights tonight in a blowout game between the Leafs and Bruins?

Especially when compared to the 200+ PIMs and multiple fights involving the Canadiens........the poster child of anti-enforcer in the League.
Had it been a big lead throughout the 3rd I'm sure there would have been at least a couple fights. Toronto scored eraly 3rd to make it a 2 goal game and they were in it till there was a minute left.

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05-07-2013, 12:37 PM
  #447
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Kassian and Neil will do what they did last game. If Moen or White or anyone else does not step up to fight in the beginning of the game, look for more cross-checks to Subban's head and Gallagher getting run at every chance.
I don't understand why they wouldn't do that anyway? Unless you think Moen or White can actually injure them in the fight and put them out of the game? Do you think Kassian or Neil are cowards or shy to play physical? I don't. I don't think you give NHL players enough credit.

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05-07-2013, 12:46 PM
  #448
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I don't understand why they wouldn't do that anyway? Unless you think Moen or White can actually injure them in the fight and put them out of the game? Do you think Kassian or Neil are cowards or shy to play physical? I don't. I don't think you give NHL players enough credit.
You missed my point.

And made my point.

Neil or Kassian take liberties, you have to have a player to fight them for that. If they take liberties again, they have to fight again. Still want to take liberties, fight them again and our enforcer and Neil or Kassian are out of the game and hockey is played.

Since everyone is tap dancing around the Leafs/Bruins, the reason they are not fighting and gooning it up is because both teams know that gooning will not work to intimidate either team.

Both teams know that if you go running the skill players on either side, there are big enforcers who will step up and make you answer for it.

Equal strength. Fighting or gooning wont help so they are reduced to deciding who is better by playing hockey.

Ottawa is simply exploiting Montreal's biggest weakness and gooning does make a difference and helps the Sens.

But that point is lost on so many people...............

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05-07-2013, 12:57 PM
  #449
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You missed my point.

And made my point.

Neil or Kassian take liberties, you have to have a player to fight them for that. If they take liberties again, they have to fight again. Still want to take liberties, fight them again and our enforcer and Neil or Kassian are out of the game and hockey is played.
...
Both teams know that if you go running the skill players on either side, there are big enforcers who will step up and make you answer for it.
...
But that point is lost on so many people...............
Indeed, your points are lost on soooooo many people. I can't remember the last time an over-aggressive player was forced to fight 3 times and got kicked out of a game as a result. Are you pretty sure that's the way hockey works?

I mean, sometimes you have to actually step out of a time capsule, or video game, or low minors fictional movie league, and observe the actual present modern-day NHL in order to make relevant points about it. There aren't actually any Ogie Ogelthorpe or Doug Glatt storylines in the NHL, you know?

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05-07-2013, 01:18 PM
  #450
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Since everyone is tap dancing around the Leafs/Bruins, the reason they are not fighting and gooning it up is because both teams know that gooning will not work to intimidate either team.

Both teams know that if you go running the skill players on either side, there are big enforcers who will step up and make you answer for it.

Equal strength. Fighting or gooning wont help so they are reduced to deciding who is better by playing hockey.
So they are reduced to 'deciding who is better by playing hockey' and one team started the series icing Colton Orr and Frazer Mclaren? Not much surprise the Bruins are winning then. Not really a point in favour of icing goons though.

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