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Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

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05-15-2013, 10:00 AM
  #551
Monctonscout
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Artyukhin is a fake tough guy that hide behind a visor.
Plus he is a guy that looks a lot better on paper tahn in the lineup, selfish player.

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05-15-2013, 10:01 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Orr McGrattan Bordeleau Sestito Scott are all legit NHL heavyweights.

I would also sign a guy like Labrie or Letourneau-Leblond as insurance in the AHL if needed.

I think if you have a smaller core group guys like that are well worth their weight in gold. You don't have to play them every night but against certain teams, you send the message early in the year not to mess with us. At 700-900k cap hit it's not a big hit on the cap either.
I agree with most of those guys but Labrie and Sestito are not legit heavyweights.

Would love Bordeleau here.

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05-15-2013, 10:07 AM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
But DD seems to disagree. But hey asking him this question is like asking Claude Julien if his team dives.
Of course, he's not the one who drops the gloves if needed.
Trade that selfish S.O.B for a bag of pucks. He's useless.

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05-15-2013, 10:10 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Orr McGrattan Bordeleau Sestito Scott are all legit NHL heavyweights.

I would also sign a guy like Labrie or Letourneau-Leblond as insurance in the AHL if needed.

I think if you have a smaller core group guys like that are well worth their weight in gold. You don't have to play them every night but against certain teams, you send the message early in the year not to mess with us. At 700-900k cap hit it's not a big hit on the cap either.
A candle in the darkness.

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05-15-2013, 10:19 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
We need an enforcer, period. There is no point in denying it, those who say we don't need one will be calling it a great pick up once we get one. The attachment some have with management and their support of every thing management does is weird on these boards. Size was never an issue to some, we pick up Cole, great acquisition because it addressed a need, but 10 mins before the signing it was never a need.

Having an enforcer will not put us at any disadvantage at all compared to some of the scrubs we currently dress on the forth line. Ryan White, Gabriel Dumont, Colby Armstrong and on and on. An enforcer would likely contribute as much as these guys do on the scoreboard as well.

Our problem is still size in our top 6-9 forwards. Having DD, Pleks, gionta all in the top 6 is a problem. If we could move Gionta and get a guy with similar production like Clowe for a similar contract would be ideal along with a tough guy who can support Prust and we're getting closer, but we also need to address the softness on the backend. Diaz, Marky, Gorges, is too much back there. I wouldn't be opposed to moving Gorges for a big shut down guy with some nastiness. PK can hold his own, Boullion although small is tough as nails. Emelin can't fight, but he's one tough customer.

Move Gionta, sign Clowe, move Gorges for a big stay at home bruiser and sign a legit heavyweight.
The reason people think having an enforcer would hurt us is because they need to be protected hockey-wise. They generally have 60% offensive zone starts, and are only played against opposing 3rd/4th lines. Doing this takes away offensive opportunities from Plekanec, Eller. Our 4th line was around 30% and could go up against 2nd lines. It's what allowed us to give softer minutes to the Desharnais and Galchenyuk lines.

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05-15-2013, 10:27 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by gusfring View Post
I agree with most of those guys but Labrie and Sestito are not legit heavyweights.

Would love Bordeleau here.
Labrie to me is signing a local guy as a "call up" type. In case injuries hit to the bottom 2 lines, he can play and not hurt a team out there. Not a heavyweight but won't back down from most of them. Sestito isn't my 1st choice but at 6'5" 228lbs he has the size for it and doesn't back down from anybody. He can also play a bit and not hurt the team.

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A candle in the darkness.
I think MB knows the needs and he tried to add Sestito on waivers. Too bad he missed on Kassian(23 man roster issue maybe?).

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05-15-2013, 11:25 AM
  #557
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Mcgrattan, Bordeleau and PL3 (oh yeah baby, a reckless motha****a!!!) should be the only target for MB. It's time for the habs to have a real feared fighter. Not a Sestito or another low tier fighters. We need the big deal that can intimidate the opponents

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05-15-2013, 11:27 AM
  #558
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Would be nice to have a couple of heavy weights for 12-13 spot. I prefer forwards in that role.

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05-15-2013, 11:42 AM
  #559
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No heavyweight enforcer needed.

They are increasingly becoming deadweight on teams. You need big physical players who can actually play - like Brandon Prust, Chris Neil, Shawn Thornton.

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05-15-2013, 12:41 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Habs 1909 View Post
No heavyweight enforcer needed.

They are increasingly becoming deadweight on teams. You need big physical players who can actually play - like Brandon Prust, Chris Neil, Shawn Thornton.
In what NHL world is 6' 190 lbs considered big? Even the other two guys aren't exactly big but are more heavyweight types. Don't get me wrong, Prust was a great signing but he would be much better if he didn't have to deal with the Fraser McClarens and Milan Lucic's of the league. If he were riding shotgun to a Bordeleau type, I think he'd be even more effective and durable.

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05-15-2013, 12:45 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Would be nice to have a couple of heavy weights for 12-13 spot. I prefer forwards in that role.
I don't like the idea of having 2, you also need guys on the 4th line that can play minutes and kill penalities. If you have a 4th line playing 5-6 minutes a game you wear down your top 3 lines through the season. Having a 40-50 game enforcer is fine, 2 is useless unless you send one to Hamilton(Labrie pr PLLL) as insurance.

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05-15-2013, 12:47 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by nilan30 View Post
In what NHL world is 6' 190 lbs considered big? Even the other two guys aren't exactly big but are more heavyweight types. Don't get me wrong, Prust was a great signing but he would be much better if he didn't have to deal with the Fraser McClarens and Milan Lucic's of the league. If he were riding shotgun to a Bordeleau type, I think he'd be even more effective and durable.
Ottawa got Kassian because Neil was KOed by Lucic. Neil is not much bigger than Prust, about 6 and maybe 205lbs. More an agitator like Ott than a pure heavyweight.

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05-15-2013, 01:10 PM
  #563
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How's about this roster, then. Buy out Kaberle. Sign Torres, Bordeleau, and Murray as free agents. Tinordi is up at least to start with Emelin hurt, and by the time Emelin is back the 24 players will have sorted itself to 23 again due to the next injury.

I opted for keeping Dumont over bringing back Halpern. I liked what Halpern did for us, but I think we can move forward with younger guys and I like Dumont's energy and don't want to waive him.

I would be willing to pay the indicated premium on Torres. As much as he's a marked guy with a bad reptuation, I would still like to see somebody in our bottom-6 really throwing his weight around consistently and to serious effect. Bordeleau is on board at a top-enforcer premium pricetag to sometimes ride with him.

Murray is very slow, but I think we have a good quick partner for him in Diaz, and I think it will be difficult to find a really perfect extra UFA defender, so taking the bad with the good in Murray might be an adequate compromise. He brings size and seems very willing to knock people over in front of the net, watching him for the Pens these playoffs. Others like Regehr or Scuderi would be worth looking at too, in the same category.

These are relatively minor re-toolings, but I think that's more like what we might have in store. Mostly they give us a bit more physical capability. And leave us with cap flexibility and the opportunity to look at bigger moves in the summer of 2014 once the cap goes back up and we see what we have with some of the added physical element in place.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Rene Bourque ($3.333m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Max Pacioretty ($4.500m) / David Desharnais ($3.500m) / Brendan Gallagher ($0.870m)
Alex Galchenyuk ($3.225m) / Lars Eller ($1.325m) / Brandon Prust ($2.500m)
Travis Moen ($1.850m) / Gabriel Dumont ($0.578m) / Raffi Torres ($2.150m)
Ryan White ($0.725m) / Patrick Bordeleau ($0.925m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / Alexei Emelin ($2.000m)
Josh Gorges ($3.900m) / P.K. Subban ($2.875m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Raphael Diaz ($1.225m)
Francis Bouillon ($1.500m) / Jarred Tinordi ($1.083m)
GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($6.500m)
Peter Budaj ($1.400m)
OTHER
Buyout: Tomas Kaberle ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,213,333; BONUSES: $2,697,500
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $2,784,167

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05-15-2013, 01:11 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Ottawa got Kassian because Neil was KOed by Lucic. Neil is not much bigger than Prust, about 6 and maybe 205lbs. More an agitator like Ott than a pure heavyweight.
Dyurzinskybibfwiufbi (whatever is name) KOed by Mclaren. I don't know if Neil got Koed in is career? Piggy face have a incredible chin

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05-15-2013, 02:01 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by nilan30 View Post
Prust was a great signing but he would be much better if he didn't have to deal with the Fraser McClarens and Milan Lucic's of the league. If he were riding shotgun to a Bordeleau type, I think he'd be even more effective and durable.
This point has repeatedly been proven to be complete red herring during the various incarnations of this thread, yet still people repeat it.

Lets try again. Brandon Prust will fight the likes of Milan Lucic whether you have an enforcer on the roster or not. We know this because he fought Milan Lucic when he had Mike Rupp on the same roster and he fought Lucic when he had Derek Boogard on the same roster.

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05-15-2013, 03:33 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
This point has repeatedly been proven to be complete red herring during the various incarnations of this thread, yet still people repeat it.

Lets try again. Brandon Prust will fight the likes of Milan Lucic whether you have an enforcer on the roster or not. We know this because he fought Milan Lucic when he had Mike Rupp on the same roster and he fought Lucic when he had Derek Boogard on the same roster.
I still see the value of a 700-900k enforcer on the roster as #12 or 13th forward. Allows guys like Prust Emelin Subban to know that somebody "has their back" against the tougher teams.

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05-15-2013, 04:15 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I still see the value of a 700-900k enforcer on the roster as #12 or 13th forward. Allows guys like Prust Emelin Subban to know that somebody "has their back" against the tougher teams.
You can only really have someone's back when your ass isn't stapled to the bench or the press box gallery.

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05-15-2013, 04:18 PM
  #568
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I still see the value of a 700-900k enforcer on the roster as #12 or 13th forward. Allows guys like Prust Emelin Subban to know that somebody "has their back" against the tougher teams.
I would see it as "could be worth a try" more than something that is definitely "needed". Per the lineup I posted above, presuming...

A) we aren't able to acquire a really good new forward, that the cost/benefit ratio for the UFA salary of tough-but-not-enforcer types like Clarkson or Clowe just makes it too risky to try signing one of those types of players to bolster the forward depth more productively, and

B) the enforcer we get is actually able to play a bit and skate at an NHL level and serves as a good example off the ice.

I haven't actually watched Bordeleau much, but he seems to get decent reviews. If an enforcer can chip in 2 goals per 48 games, not take bad penalties, and be a good team player in general (e.g. more Downey/Staubitz than Laraque/distraction)... then paying a little "enforcer premium salary" to get the right fit may be worth a try. Guys like Orr, Parros commanded $1M and more on the market, perhaps if Bordeleau is the right target, he would too, and we can afford that.

And we can also afford to waive/demote that salary later on if it turns out the experiment doesn't really pay any dividends.

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05-16-2013, 09:22 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by Habs 1909 View Post
No heavyweight enforcer needed.

They are increasingly becoming deadweight on teams. You need big physical players who can actually play - like Brandon Prust, Chris Neil, Shawn Thornton.
Who invented the theory that heavyweight enforcer automatically means deadweight? Why can't a heavyweight also play hockey? Ryane Clowe is an example of that.

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05-16-2013, 09:34 AM
  #570
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I want Looch. Otherwise, **** off.

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05-16-2013, 10:24 AM
  #571
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Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
This point has repeatedly been proven to be complete red herring during the various incarnations of this thread, yet still people repeat it.

Lets try again. Brandon Prust will fight the likes of Milan Lucic whether you have an enforcer on the roster or not. We know this because he fought Milan Lucic when he had Mike Rupp on the same roster and he fought Lucic when he had Derek Boogard on the same roster.
And I agree that he would still fight guys like that but look at the fight with Fraser McLaren for example. He basically fought him because he embarassed Gorges by laughing at him during their fight. I commend him for stepping up but if you have a Bordeleau type to take care of it you don't have to risk Prusts health and ice time. Who knows even still Prust might take it upon himself to take that fight.

I just don't understand why pretty much every other team and their fans are happy to sign or carry a heavyweight but with the Habs it has to be debated for months and months.

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05-16-2013, 10:45 AM
  #572
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Who invented the theory that heavyweight enforcer automatically means deadweight? Why can't a heavyweight also play hockey? Ryane Clowe is an example of that.
Because 95% of them are useless. Besides if you get someone like Clowe, Lucic or Chara then you don't want them fighting much because you'd rather them be on the ice instead of in the box for 5min. Especially when the opponent is a guy who isn't going to play anyways.

If you want to make a thread about getting guys who are good hockey players and can also fight I don't think anybody would be against that. Though if you mention the name Clowe some people might claim he is useless and isn't a good hockey player anymore

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05-16-2013, 07:28 PM
  #573
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Because 95% of them are useless. Besides if you get someone like Clowe, Lucic or Chara then you don't want them fighting much because you'd rather them be on the ice instead of in the box for 5min. Especially when the opponent is a guy who isn't going to play anyways.

If you want to make a thread about getting guys who are good hockey players and can also fight I don't think anybody would be against that. Though if you mention the name Clowe some people might claim he is useless and isn't a good hockey player anymore
Why would I make a thread about that when there is this one. Again, where in the definition of enforcer does it say that he must be a useless hockey player? I don't have time but I could name you several enforcers who are decent hockey players, playing 8-12 minutes a game at least.

And is the fact that Prust is a good hockey player prevent him from fighting? He's one of the players with the most fights every year!

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05-17-2013, 06:16 AM
  #574
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Artyukhin is a fake tough guy that hide behind a visor.
I would get him only for Chara.

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05-17-2013, 10:01 AM
  #575
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I would get him only for Chara.
bring Scott Parker out of retirement. Way better

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