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Jagr vs Lidstrom vs Hasek: Who has a better trophy collection?

View Poll Results: Who has the better trophy collection?
Jaromir Jagr 15 10.42%
Nicklas Lidstrom 36 25.00%
Dominik Hasek 93 64.58%
Voters: 144. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-26-2013, 06:56 PM
  #26
KidLine93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancouver Blazers View Post
Not fair to Hasek... only two slots for goalies, four for defensemen, six for forwards.

Also Hasek's relative competition was waaaay higher.
but theres more defensemen and forwards competing for the spots....

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Old
03-26-2013, 07:25 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by KadriFeedsMeCrow View Post
Came in thinking off the top of my head it was going to be Jagr and all his Art Ross', read the list and you cant argue with 6 Vezinas, 3 Jennings and 2 Harts ect.

Lidstrom is so ridiculously over-rated I cant even begin to express how fortunate he is to have played with Steve Yzerman/Fedorov... than transition to Datsyuk/Zetterberg. His support won him his legacy more than his actual play ffs (hyperbole).
What a horrible comment...I guess you never watched him play? What does playing with Zetterberg and Datsyuk have to do with winning the Norris? He never won the Norris for his amazing offense...And one more thing but what is the one common thing you mention in all 5 of those players?

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Old
03-26-2013, 07:51 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by KadriFeedsMeCrow View Post
Came in thinking off the top of my head it was going to be Jagr and all his Art Ross', read the list and you cant argue with 6 Vezinas, 3 Jennings and 2 Harts ect.

Lidstrom is so ridiculously over-rated I cant even begin to express how fortunate he is to have played with Steve Yzerman/Fedorov... than transition to Datsyuk/Zetterberg. His support won him his legacy more than his actual play ffs (hyperbole).
Never read a more ignorant post in my life.

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Old
03-26-2013, 10:52 PM
  #29
TAnnala
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Lidstrom was fortunate to play with the Red Wings and he had probably the easiest competition of these three. He can be overrated in a sense that some people rank him as #1 D all-time.

That said, I think he is legitimately a top-5 all-time.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:56 PM
  #30
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Lidstrom as he was a key part to 4 SC teams and the Hart is largely reserved for forwards in the modern era.

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Old
03-27-2013, 12:04 AM
  #31
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2 Harts as a goalie is unreal. It's Hasek for me.

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Old
03-27-2013, 07:35 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human View Post
Jagr, because he has 5 Art Rosses. there are no votes involved in awarding that trophy.
Generally I'd agree, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Conversely, if the "Roger Crozier Saving Grace Award" had existed in the '90s, Hasek would have won it six consecutive times.
It's not like he isn't one of, if not the best, goalies of all time.

Also Crozier lived in Wilmington, DE for awhile, and there's a hospital like 15 minutes away with almost the same name, Crozer. For a second I thought it was named after him lol.

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03-27-2013, 07:39 AM
  #33
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Hasek
Jagr
Lidstrom

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Old
03-27-2013, 06:30 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Lidstrom was fortunate to play with the Red Wings and he had probably the easiest competition of these three. He can be overrated in a sense that some people rank him as #1 D all-time.

That said, I think he is legitimately a top-5 all-time.
Very few to the point that its not enough to legitimize consider Lids to be the best dman of all time so I don't put much stock in that.

I would say Haseks competition in goalie was 2 all time greats while Lids was dealing with Pronger, Niedrmayer, MaCinnis, Blake, Chara etc...So Lids was not facing 2 of the top 3 at his position but he faced more greats playing during his time most of which are HOF dman and 2 of which are top 10 to 20 all time...So I don't think Lids competition for the Norris was bad and some of those dman would be multiple winners and considered to be higher up on the all time great list had it not been for him.

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Old
03-28-2013, 01:04 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jarmoismyhero View Post
Very few to the point that its not enough to legitimize consider Lids to be the best dman of all time so I don't put much stock in that.

I would say Haseks competition in goalie was 2 all time greats while Lids was dealing with Pronger, Niedrmayer, MaCinnis, Blake, Chara etc...So Lids was not facing 2 of the top 3 at his position but he faced more greats playing during his time most of which are HOF dman and 2 of which are top 10 to 20 all time...So I don't think Lids competition for the Norris was bad and some of those dman would be multiple winners and considered to be higher up on the all time great list had it not been for him.
Yeah, Lidstrom is probably overrated in a same sense that Brodeur is. Few fans have them as #1 all-time but vast majority considers them as top-5:ish.

You have a point in the competition. I may have been too quick to undermine Lidstrom. But Hasek played against Brodeur, Roy, Belfour and few more.

So at best i would think the level of competition was equal. I still would probably say Hasek had a bit tougher.

As for what is the answer to this poll, I have to go with Hasek. Two Hart trophies against Jagr is nothing to sniff at. Actually, Hasek might be the biggest reason Jagr only has 1.

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Old
03-28-2013, 12:14 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarmoismyhero View Post
I would say Haseks competition in goalie was 2 all time greats while Lids was dealing with Pronger, Niedrmayer, MaCinnis, Blake, Chara etc...So Lids was not facing 2 of the top 3 at his position but he faced more greats playing during his time most of which are HOF dman and 2 of which are top 10 to 20 all time...So I don't think Lids competition for the Norris was bad and some of those dman would be multiple winners and considered to be higher up on the all time great list had it not been for him.
I wouldn't really agree with the first part. Do I understand it correctly that you consider Hasek to have the better direct competition, while Lidström had more competitors to beat?
If yes, I have to disagree. Roy and Brodeur weren't the only competition for Hasek, Ed Belfour was there as well. His two Vezinas, four Jennings, Calder and Cup beat all of the defensemen you name, apart from maybe Pronger, who has a Hart. Rob Blake isn't really more accomplished than someone like Kolzig either. Factor in the amount of goalies compared to the amount of defensemen, and Lidström doesn't have the advantage in depth of competition either.

I agree with your general point though

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Old
03-28-2013, 10:44 PM
  #37
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I wouldn't really agree with the first part. Do I understand it correctly that you consider Hasek to have the better direct competition, while Lidström had more competitors to beat?
If yes, I have to disagree. Roy and Brodeur weren't the only competition for Hasek, Ed Belfour was there as well. His two Vezinas, four Jennings, Calder and Cup beat all of the defensemen you name, apart from maybe Pronger, who has a Hart. Rob Blake isn't really more accomplished than someone like Kolzig either. Factor in the amount of goalies compared to the amount of defensemen, and Lidström doesn't have the advantage in depth of competition either.

I agree with your general point though
Basically I am saying Hasek had to beat out 2 all-time greats meaning IMO the 3 of them are all top 10 goalies and possibly top 6...However Lids had to compete with a lot of great dman just nobody at the level of a top 10 dman of all time and the closest being Al Mac...I threw Blake out there as he is a borderline HOF guy...I just think Lids was competing against more potential HOF players though not all at the absolute peak...Whereas Hasek competed against how many true HOF goalies? Roy, Marty, Belfour, and who else? Joseph? Good goalie but not great.

No doubt Hasek had stiff competition I just think it mainly came from Roy and Marty(granted two of the best ever)…And I think Lids competition is being underrated.

Overall I just think Lids and Jagr are closer together then some people think with Hasek being a level ahead of both.

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Old
03-29-2013, 09:31 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarmoismyhero View Post
Basically I am saying Hasek had to beat out 2 all-time greats meaning IMO the 3 of them are all top 10 goalies and possibly top 6...However Lids had to compete with a lot of great dman just nobody at the level of a top 10 dman of all time and the closest being Al Mac...I threw Blake out there as he is a borderline HOF guy...I just think Lids was competing against more potential HOF players though not all at the absolute peak...Whereas Hasek competed against how many true HOF goalies? Roy, Marty, Belfour, and who else? Joseph? Good goalie but not great.

No doubt Hasek had stiff competition I just think it mainly came from Roy and Marty(granted two of the best ever)…And I think Lids competition is being underrated.

Overall I just think Lids and Jagr are closer together then some people think with Hasek being a level ahead of both.
Hasek also played in an era that heavily favored goalies. Jagr only has 1 Hart but was a runner up 5 other times and finished top 4 twice.

He also has 3 Pearsons.

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Old
03-29-2013, 09:35 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
There is not 6 slots for all forwards. There is only two slots for center/RW/LW. Although sometimes the voters mix up few votes but the idea is that only two RW's are voted in.

Defense is the only place where any D-man can get any of the available 4 slots.

For this poll, I would consider Hasek's as the best. Back-2-Back Hart trophie's and those were against Jagr.
In Jagr's defense though, the first Hart Hasek won, Jagr only played 63 games and so it wasn't against Jagr.

Jagr also beat Hasek for the Hart in 1998-99 in what some consider the greatest regular season ever put forth by a goaltender.

When Hasek won the 2 Hart trophies, he was deserving but Jagr on the other hand got robbed of 2 Hart trophies.

It should have gone to him in 1999-00 as well as 2005-06.

His Pearson winning seasons should have all coincided with him winning the Hart as well. Of course this isn't about who the better player was, it's who has the better trophy collection and well Jagr doesn't have more Hart trophies to pull this in his favor.

I just think it's a shame that Jagr will retire with only 1 Hart trophy on his trophy shelf.

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Old
03-29-2013, 10:45 AM
  #40
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This poll is a bit unfair to Jágr as some of the trophies are being awarded by the media, and you can say that while both Lidström and Hašek became media favorites at some point of their careers, Jágr on the other hand... not so much. He lost the 2000 Hart by one point to Pronger, thanks to someone from Pittsburgh of all places, who didn't even put him in his Top 5.

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03-29-2013, 10:59 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
In Jagr's defense though, the first Hart Hasek won, Jagr only played 63 games and so it wasn't against Jagr.

Jagr also beat Hasek for the Hart in 1998-99 in what some consider the greatest regular season ever put forth by a goaltender.

When Hasek won the 2 Hart trophies, he was deserving but Jagr on the other hand got robbed of 2 Hart trophies.

It should have gone to him in 1999-00 as well as 2005-06.

His Pearson winning seasons should have all coincided with him winning the Hart as well. Of course this isn't about who the better player was, it's who has the better trophy collection and well Jagr doesn't have more Hart trophies to pull this in his favor.

I just think it's a shame that Jagr will retire with only 1 Hart trophy on his trophy shelf.
That is why strict award counting can be misleading. Jagr has one Hart, so does Jose Theodore.

Jagr had a career where he could/should have won two-four Hart trophies. For a reason, good or bad, he did not. But he was so much more than that one trophy.

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Old
03-29-2013, 12:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Hasek also played in an era that heavily favored goalies.
He posted back-to-back .930% seasons before the DPE became a thing.

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Old
03-29-2013, 02:35 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
That is why strict award counting can be misleading. Jagr has one Hart, so does Jose Theodore.

Jagr had a career where he could/should have won two-four Hart trophies. For a reason, good or bad, he did not. But he was so much more than that one trophy.
24 Hart Trophies for Jagr!?!?

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03-29-2013, 03:06 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
He posted back-to-back .930% seasons before the DPE became a thing.
I'd be interested to see what those seasons are.

The Dead Puck Era officially began in 1996-97.

1994-95 saw lower scoring and the Devils using the trap to win the Cup but this was a shortened season and this wasn't officially considered a Dead Puck Era season, yes.

1995-96 was a high scoring season.

What I am trying to explain is that when Hasek officially dominated, it was during the Dead Puck Era. By sheer notion that forwards weren't scoring at high clips and scoring was down league wide, Hasek has an advantage.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Hasek (he's my second favorite player all-time) but his numbers only look that good because forwards themselves were not scoring so much.

Biggest example of this on the flip side is 1998-99.

Hasek has himself what some consider the greatest season of all-time by a goalie.

Coincidentally Jagr wins the Hart due to his sheer dominance of scoring over his peers (20 Pts lead over 2nd place Selanne in scoring).

Any other season in the Dead Puck Era and Hasek has that trophy bagged.

If for instance in 1996-97 Jagr doesn't get injured, he makes it interesting and possibly wins the Art Ross over Lemieux and maybe Hasek doesn't win that Hart.

In 1997-98, the Hart could have gone either way as well. Jagr was the only 100 Pts scorer in the league and his 11 Pts lead over Forsberg should have been enough to give him more Hart consideration.

Hasek however didn't dominate the goaltending field as much (Brodeur was equally as good as him that season) but not only do they give Hasek the Vezina but the Hart as well.

Hasek was a media darling at the time and the Hart was as much a popularity vote as much as it was indicative of domination over his peers. Then again the Hart goes to the MVP and maybe you give it to Hasek due to his importance to his team.

It doesn't change though that the 2 Harts Hasek has are during the Dead Puck Era. An era that easily favors goaltenders.

BTW in 1993-94 when Hasek had his first 930 save percentage, Vanbiesbroouck was not far behind with 924. So scoring was already down league wide. 130 Pts was the lowest Art Ross winner in over a decade.

In 1994-95, Hasek's lead is more substantial in save percentage, 930 to 917.

In 1995-96 Hasek had 920 while the second best was 918.

In 1996-97, Hasek had 930 while Hackett had 927 and Brodeur had 926. Hasek didn't dominate, yet he got the Hart and Vezina.

In 1997-98, 4 goalies had a save percentage of 920 or more, Hasek had 932.

In 1998-98, Dafoe has a great season himself (where he would have won the Vezina any other year).

My point stands, Hasek played in an era where goaltenders had an advantage.


Last edited by livewell68: 03-29-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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Old
03-29-2013, 03:27 PM
  #45
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You can pick and choose individual seasons where different goalies were close, statistically, to Hasek, but when you step back and increase the sample size to reduce the effects of variance, it becomes clear that no one was actually close.

And bear in mind that Buffalo was also the most heavily penalized team in the league over that stretch, as well as allowing the 3rd most shots against.

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03-29-2013, 03:29 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
You can pick and choose individual seasons where different goalies were close, statistically, to Hasek, but when you step back and increase the sample size to reduce the effects of variance, it becomes clear that no one was actually close.

And bear in mind that Buffalo was also the most heavily penalized team in the league over that stretch, as well as allowing the 3rd most shots against.
If only I could high-five you through the internet.

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03-29-2013, 04:03 PM
  #47
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top 5 forward or best goalie of all time. very very close. If you put gun in my head i say Hasek. Both are top 10 players of all time. Hasek number 5 and Jagr 6-9. Lidstrom is not in this conversation he was more of a complementary player in very good teams.

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03-29-2013, 04:27 PM
  #48
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Tough but I'll go with Hasek. 2 Harts (as a goalie) and 6 Vezinas is hard to beat.

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03-29-2013, 04:38 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Hasek/Jagr

Lidstrom

Context matters, jagr and hasek won thier awards based on pure domination. Lidstrom won his because of significantly weaker competition.
...He won seven Norris trophies because of weaker competition?

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03-30-2013, 03:18 AM
  #50
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The only one with a conn smythe.

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