HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Semin's contract set the starting point for Kessel's?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-07-2013, 11:33 AM
  #301
DaveT83*
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,760
vCash: 500
Fanboys want you to believe that what PK brings is EXCEPTIONAL - that no other player in the game given the same role / ice-time could produce similar results.

A similar sentiment was spread around here with Wilson. For years we listened to what would happen if Burke was ever not the GM.

The list of players taht would be better suited for this roster over Phil Kessel gets longer and longer by teh day.

DaveT83* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-07-2013, 11:37 AM
  #302
johnny_rudeboy
Registered User
 
johnny_rudeboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Karlstad
Country: Sweden
Posts: 21,019
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleafsfan View Post
People on this board love to act like capologists and pro scouts while failing at both.

At this point, we have a dynamic offence. Kessel commands the attention of the opposing teams #1 dman all game... not Kadri, not Lupul...Kessel.

With or without the puck, he is capable of skating at 40 km/h down the ice. Only guys like Crosby can compare with his speed. Factor in his lethal wrist shot, ppposing teams are forced to focus a lot of their attention on him. He is a threat to score every time he is on the ice, keeping the other team on edge all game. This opens up opportunities for guys like Lupul and Kadri, allowing them to play with less pressure and against weaker matchups.

Factor in his credentials:
consistent 30 goal scorer with potential for more
PPG player
24 years old
doesn't need good linemates to produce

... and you have a $7 million player. With out influx of defensive prospects on cheap ELC contracts, we can afford high-priced forwards.
Kessel is 25 and he will turn 26 when next season starts.

johnny_rudeboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-07-2013, 01:02 PM
  #303
LEAFSIN4
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Fanboys want you to believe that what PK brings is EXCEPTIONAL - that no other player in the game given the same role / ice-time could produce similar results.

A similar sentiment was spread around here with Wilson. For years we listened to what would happen if Burke was ever not the GM.

The list of players taht would be better suited for this roster over Phil Kessel gets longer and longer by teh day.
And haters want you to believe that his skill/presence is easily replaceable.

LEAFSIN4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-07-2013, 01:11 PM
  #304
HockeyThoughts
Delivering The Truth
 
HockeyThoughts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,176
vCash: 1550
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleafsfan View Post
And haters want you to believe that his skill/presence is easily replaceable.
Didn't you know? Wingers who are equally adept playmakers and snipers who can produce with or without skilled linemates grow on trees.

HockeyThoughts is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-07-2013, 01:19 PM
  #305
LEAFSIN4
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RhyZa View Post
Agree with you completely.

And to make matters worse, even his offensive skills aren't exactly out of this world. He can skate, shoot and pass really well but relative to the type of player he is (0 physical contact) he has limited creativity/stick-handling/agility on the rush to get separation in order to get a shot off from a dangerous position. I wonder if throughout the stages of his development his speed was enough therefore he never had to develop the other skills.

This lack of dimension in his game is also why he gets in these cold spells, it's not due to bad luck. He doesn't create enough good chances for himself, due to lack of dimension in his offensive arsenal.
I don't think Kessel should be trying to create separation by himself, nor should he be puckhandling for extended periods. This is what his centre should be doing. Without the puck he's always skating around trying to get in position, but rarely is he put in position to score because of somebody else's effort. Give him more one-timer opportunities and passes in the slot and there won't be time for goalies to react to his shot.

Bozak is probably the worst player for Kessel. He can't control possession, has below average passing abilities, and does not command defensive pressure.

I don't think we need to look for a number 1 center, I think Kadri can do it. However, putting Kadri on the first line (right now) takes away from our secondary scoring. That's why I think we need to upgrade our 2nd line with another sniper/goal threat so Lupul-Kadri-Kessel can play together full-time. Someone like Franzen is perfect.

Lupul (5.25) - Kadri (4) - Kessel (7)
JVR (4.25) - Grabo (5.5) - Franzen (3.9)
Frattin (1.5) - Bozak (3)- Kulemin (3.5)

This could be our top 9 for years, and we'd have a top 10 offence year in, year out. Adding in 4th line players, this adds up to about 40 million. Like I said before, our defensive prospects and their ELC contracts allow us to spend more for our forwards, so this is no problem.

LEAFSIN4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 07:33 AM
  #306
Faltorvo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,120
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStreetBullies View Post
That's a nice analysis and all, but all it shows that you think Kessel should be taking hits just for the sake of it. I'd rather have a healthy, productive Kessel who avoids hits, than one who plays a kamikaze style and ends up on the IR 2-3 times a season. Just because he avoids hits, doesn't make him soft. Many times it's the smart thing to do.
He takes it to a different level tho.

I can't tell you how many times folks have stated that his play style boarders on cowardice.

Selfice self preservation style?

Non sacrifice for the team style?

Understand this, he sets a poor example for his TEAMMATES playing like that.

Just like how an Orr,McLar,Fras can cause players to grow an inch, so can a Kessel cause them to shrink an inch.

Faltorvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 08:03 AM
  #307
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 71,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleafsfan View Post
And haters want you to believe that his skill/presence is easily replaceable.
Winger JVR was acquired in the offseason and his 15 goals has replaced Kessel's 10 on this season.

10 goal scorers aren't irreplaceable.

__________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Signature: "Never say Never to a Mike Babcock coached team" ..... Mess (circa 2015) #Play-the-Kids
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 08:09 AM
  #308
ULF_55
Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 64,562
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Winger JVR was acquired in the offseason and his 15 goals has replaced Kessel's 10 on this season.

10 goal scorers aren't irreplaceable.
Kessel is in the top 25 based on his assists, and PP time.

Kessel is tied for 40th. even strength points along with van Riemsdyk and Kulemin.

He's a very good offensive player.

__________________
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/14...cording-forbes

The New York Rangers are the most valuable NHL franchise at $1.2 billion, taking the top spot on the Forbes list for the first time since 2004.

The magazine said Tuesday that Montreal is second at $1.18 billion, followed by Toronto at $1.15 billion.
ULF_55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 08:24 AM
  #309
Faltorvo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,120
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Yet Teemu Selanne, Bobby Ryan, Kessel have played under Carlyle all while performing at a close PPG clip huh?
How can you even try to lump Kessel in with Ryan, they are not even remotely close to the kind of player in that regard.

2009 / 2012,,,, 3 seasons Ryan has 400 hits total.

Kessel, 36 hits total in those same 3 seasons.


400>36 in 3 seasons=night and day.

Teemu, yup there is a comparable there, first ballot hall of famers tend to be given some grace to their short comings.

Faltorvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 08:36 AM
  #310
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 71,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Kessel is in the top 25 based on his assists, and PP time.

Kessel is tied for 40th. even strength points along with van Riemsdyk and Kulemin.

He's a very good offensive player.
Yup

Wingers Lupul who has only played 10 games has 3 game winning goals and Frattin only 21 games and he also has 3 GWG on the season.

Kessel has 2, but likely assisted on Bozak's 3.

Kessel is providing solid secondary scoring for his teammates, and hopefully his next contract reflects his contribution accordingly.

Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 08:46 AM
  #311
Slot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,339
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Winger JVR was acquired in the offseason and his 15 goals has replaced Kessel's 10 on this season.

10 goal scorers aren't irreplaceable.
Kessel is tied for 13th overall in assists and T20th in points. Yes he's replacable by the 14 or so guys ahead of him on those lists (we've already got one of them in Kadri). I don't think most, if any, of them are available except Ribiero and do you want a guy at the tail end of his career replacing a 26 year old? You who wants to "play the kids" all the time?

Kessel is good and his game is slowly evolving into some more defensive awareness. He's answered a lot of the question marks in his game. Too much of a puck hog, he's got 25 assists most of them primaries. Doesn't play defense, under Carlyle we see a slow evolution here from the beginning of the year doing laps at the blue line to getting involved in plays in his own end. The biggest knock on him is that when the game gets physical he disappears. It looks like the coaching staff is working on this with him. If this team makes the playoffs this will have to change for him to have success then too.

I like Kessel, had boston gotten:


Dylan McIlrath (10th pick 2010)
Duncan Siemens (12th pick 2011)

Like Chiarelli himself said he thought he was trading for, he is on record as thinking the picks would be in the 10-14 range. Toronto fans would be declaiming another Burke whitewash of a trade. Instead the goalies blew up and the Defense underperformed under Ron "run and gun with nothing" Wilson.

Slot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 08:57 AM
  #312
Terrence
Registered User
 
Terrence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,209
vCash: 1026
Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Far less then him being called soft.....so if that is the proof....he is soft.

He is a good offensive player, passing skills and his release are elite, however his inability to play the other 4/5ths of the game is an issue.

He is a defensive liability....he will not take a check to make a play, nor does he attempt to body check to help on the forecheck. He does not block shots as his path to the D man who has the puck is always from the inside ( wall ) to the player, leaving the middle lane wide open .To block a shot you have to get in the shooting lanes. He got praise for attempting to jump out of the way and the puck hit him on here as an example of his shot blocking skills.

He is what he is a one dimensional player....how many dimensions are there when discussing a hockey player?

4 is my answer.
Leadership and intangible skills.
Offensive skills
Physical skills
Defensive skills


Passing and scoring/shooting are both Offensive skills and fall under one dimension.
Skating isn't important? OK, got ya.


Last edited by Terrence: 04-08-2013 at 09:02 AM.
Terrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 09:02 AM
  #313
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 71,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot View Post
Kessel is good and his game is slowly evolving into some more defensive awareness. He's answered a lot of the question marks in his game.
On a team that is +11 goal differential, Kessel remains among a only a handful of Leaf players that manages to remain a negative +/- at even strength.

Which translates to being on the ice for more goals against than for, which unfortunately hurts the team more than it helps, no matter if he is trying not to be a liability dragging the team down.

Perhaps Carlyle should make Kessel into a PP specialist and limit his ES TOI/g to help the Leafs win.

Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 09:07 AM
  #314
ACC1224
Hate the Patriots
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 40,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
On a team that is +11 goal differential, Kessel remains among a only a handful of Leaf players that manages to remain a negative +/- at even strength.

Which translates to being on the ice for more goals against than for, which unfortunately hurts the team more than it helps, no matter if he is trying not to be a liability dragging the team down.

Perhaps Carlyle should make Kessel into a PP specialist and limit his ES TOI/g to help the Leafs win.
PP points don't affect the +/-.

ACC1224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 09:18 AM
  #315
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 71,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
PP points don't affect the +/-.
Why do you think I put ES TOI/g in my post, and suggested keeping Kessel for the PP utilization?

Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 09:21 AM
  #316
ACC1224
Hate the Patriots
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 40,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Why do you think I put ES TOI/g in my post, and suggested keeping Kessel for the PP utilization?
He's not on the ice for more goals against than for.

ACC1224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 09:27 AM
  #317
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 71,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
He's not on the ice for more goals against than for.
A negative +/- suggests he is on the ice for more goals against than for at even strength, therefore limiting his ES TOI/g and using him on PP where he can be in a positive goal differential position is better for the team.

At even strength Kessel has been on the ice for 30 goals for, and 34 against = -4.



PS. In comparison Kadri has been on the ice for 37 ES goals for, and only 19 against = +18

So you give the Lupul -- Kadri -- Kulemin more ice time at ES, and the JVR -- Bozak -- Kessel line less. Making Kessel secondary scoring at ES and a PP specialist where he excels. Hopefully Nonis realizes this when it comes to Kessel's next contract.


Last edited by Mess: 04-08-2013 at 09:59 AM.
Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 09:28 AM
  #318
BillDerlago
They did it Naylor
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: 905
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,269
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Fanboys want you to believe that what PK brings is EXCEPTIONAL - that no other player in the game given the same role / ice-time could produce similar results.
Wow quite the strawman you've built up.


Last edited by Epictetus: 04-08-2013 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Cleaned up.
BillDerlago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 09:53 AM
  #319
DaveT83*
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,760
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordRamsay View Post
Wow quite the strawman you've built up.
Trading for Kessel was a horrible allocation of resources. Resigning him would be a similar mistake. Use him to acquire additional organizational assets that are in need. Spend his expectated cap hit on a more deserving (albeit less offensively gifted) player.


A playmaking RWer ... that is one of the softed players I have ever seen play the game ... that refuses to play defence (or simply cannot) ... that dissappears completely when the going gets tough ... is not irreplaceble. The thought of it is simply laughable.


Every team in the NHL have 2-3 superior players on their rosters ... included our very own TML.


Last edited by Epictetus: 04-08-2013 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Cleaned up.
DaveT83* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 10:04 AM
  #320
BillDerlago
They did it Naylor
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: 905
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,269
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post

Trading for Kessel was a horrible allocation of resources.
You're barking up the wrong tree, he's far from my favourite player. But nice try.

Perhaps. Is there some sort of personal satisfaction for you to brood on this? I mean it's been what? 4 years?


Last edited by Epictetus: 04-08-2013 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Cleaned up.
BillDerlago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 11:07 AM
  #321
Faltorvo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,120
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordRamsay View Post
You're barking up the wrong tree, he's far from my favourite player. But nice try.



Perhaps. Is there some sort of personal satisfaction for you to brood on this? I mean it's been what? 4 years?
Brooding, what brooding?

As far as I'm concerned we still need another 2 years to see what Hamilton turns into, before we can gauge the true horridity of this ill fated trade.

That said, PK does bring a rare and high level O skill set, not easily replaced around the league. Well unless we grabbed Semin from last years UFA heap on a one year flier contract.

DaveT ,i think your offbase by calling Kessel a playmaking winger, we can both agree he has shown he is both a scorer and set up man.

Now, does he have the right line mates to allow him to excel at both at the same time?

I'd say no, JVR is a finisher, net/board presence, a Cy Young candidate, like Carter is.

Bozak, pfffttt, no there there, a ghostly product of his line mates, mainly Kessel.

Faltorvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 11:11 AM
  #322
ACC1224
Hate the Patriots
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 40,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
A negative +/- suggests he is on the ice for more goals against than for at even strength, therefore limiting his ES TOI/g and using him on PP where he can be in a positive goal differential position is better for the team.

At even strength Kessel has been on the ice for 30 goals for, and 34 against = -4.



PS. In comparison Kadri has been on the ice for 37 ES goals for, and only 19 against = +18

So you give the Lupul -- Kadri -- Kulemin more ice time at ES, and the JVR -- Bozak -- Kessel line less. Making Kessel secondary scoring at ES and a PP specialist where he excels. Hopefully Nonis realizes this when it comes to Kessel's next contract.
That's certainly a simple way of looking at things.

I don't know Nonis but I don't imagine he's simple.

ACC1224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 11:23 AM
  #323
leach11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Winger JVR was acquired in the offseason and his 15 goals has replaced Kessel's 10 on this season.

10 goal scorers aren't irreplaceable.
Kunitz and Dupuis have more goals than Crosby, therefore Crosby is replacable...got it, thanks for another one of your brilliant insights


Last edited by leach11: 04-08-2013 at 11:38 AM.
leach11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 11:54 AM
  #324
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 71,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
That's certainly a simple way of looking at things.

I don't know Nonis but I don't imagine he's simple.
Carlyle appears to be slowly grooming the Lupul - Kadri -- Kulemin line as his #1 unit and primary scoring trio, despite getting less TOI/g particularly on the PP.

That is because they already score more goals than and are better defensively at ES, than the JVR -- Bozak -- Kessel line, which needs PP TOI/g to produce results.

If Carlyle gave the Kadri line the prime PP time then the Kessel's lines numbers would fall off even more and the gap larger in production as the PP is Kessel's bread and butter.

Nonis when it comes to resigning Kessel, will logically take this into account, as it would be foolish to make Kessel the highest paid Leaf by a fair margin ($7-8 mil range as suggested) when he is not as effective as, nor more impactful than his own teammates as the stats show.

Alex Semin the comparable used here is a +12 +/- and not a defensive liability at even strength, and is producing as many goals/points as Kessel is offensively. That makes Semin a solid 2-way player, while Kessel remains a 1-way player only. If we know anything Carlyle focuses on defense in his system, and that makes Kessel among the weak links on the team in that regard.

Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2013, 12:04 PM
  #325
Faltorvo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,120
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Carlyle appears to be slowly grooming the Lupul - Kadri -- Kulemin line as his #1 unit and primary scoring trio, despite getting less TOI/g particularly on the PP.

That is because they already score more goals than and are better defensively at ES, than the JVR -- Bozak -- Kessel line, which needs PP TOI/g to produce results.

If Carlyle gave the Kadri line the prime PP time then the Kessel's lines numbers would fall off even more and the gap larger in production as the PP is Kessel's bread and butter.

Nonis when it comes to resigning Kessel, will logically take this into account, as it would be foolish to make Kessel the highest paid Leaf by a fair margin ($7-8 mil range as suggested) when he is not as effective as, nor more impactful than his own teammates as the stats show.

Alex Semin the comparable used here is a +12 +/- and not a defensive liability at even strength, and is producing as many goals/points as Kessel is offensively. That makes Semin a solid 2-way player, while Kessel remains a 1-way player only. If we know anything Carlyle focuses on defense in his system, and that makes Kessel among the weak links on the team in that regard.
Would you not say tho, that it's a difficult comparable(+/-) when ones C is E Staal and the others is Bozak?

Faltorvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:41 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.