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Semin's contract set the starting point for Kessel's?

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Old
03-27-2013, 09:15 AM
  #176
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OK then, I guess we should all expect Kessel to rip it up in the Playoffs since he is a playoff tested warrior. To bad he has never shown that side of him in 4 years playing for us and didn't show too much of it in Boston which is why they were willing to let him go. Like I said I hope he proves me wrong.
Why all the extremes? So there are only two choices, he'll do nothing or he'll rip it up?

9 goals and 15 points in 15 playoff games whilst in Boston. I have a hunch it wasn't his lack of playoff production that made him expendable.

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03-27-2013, 09:39 AM
  #177
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Why all the extremes? So there are only two choices, he'll do nothing or he'll rip it up?

9 goals and 15 points in 15 playoff games whilst in Boston. I have a hunch it wasn't his lack of playoff production that made him expendable.
On the other hand in terms of expendable, the Bruins never missed a beat and went on to win the Stanley Cup without him.

Kessel's game, its good and bad aspects make him a nice to have, but not a necessary component of a winning team.

Can people think of any games this season, in one where Leafs are having their best in years where its been Kessel's goal scoring abilities that have sealed victories?

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03-27-2013, 09:58 AM
  #178
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Contract negotiations with Kessel in my opinion will not go well. He wanted more money than his team mate in Boston and when not offered that amount he told his agent to get him a offer sheet.

He will want to be paid as an elite player and that is at least 8 million per year and maximum term along with a NMC and NTC. I do not feel he is worth more than 6.5 or so for what he brings to the table.

I do not know what we could get for him on the trade market but it needs to be explored....

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03-27-2013, 10:00 AM
  #179
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On the other hand in terms of expendable, the Bruins never missed a beat and went on to win the Stanley Cup without him.

Kessel's game, its good and bad aspects make him a nice to have, but not a necessary component of a winning team.

Can people think of any games this season, in one where Leafs are having their best in years where its been Kessel's goal scoring abilities that have sealed victories?
the argument is that Kessel's presence alone creates opportunities for everyone else and his shots on net create chances too.

I'm not completely sold on that or not to the point of thinking or wanting to make him a 7+ millions player

I talked about yesterday wanting a top player to be out there for all situations but also offensively I like players that can control the pace of the game. I rarely see Kessel control the puck and dictate the game other than when it opens up and he uses his speed.

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03-27-2013, 10:33 AM
  #180
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On the other hand in terms of expendable, the Bruins never missed a beat and went on to win the Stanley Cup without him.

Kessel's game, its good and bad aspects make him a nice to have, but not a necessary component of a winning team.

Can people think of any games this season, in one where Leafs are having their best in years where its been Kessel's goal scoring abilities that have sealed victories?
Actually the bruins did miss a beat, and had to make a whole whack of trades before winning the cup.

including trading dennis wideman and a first to get another scoring winger in horton, and trading colborne and picks for an offensive dman in kaberle, and trading wheeler plus a whack of other picks to create a checking line with kelly and peverley and a checking pair with seidenberg.


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03-27-2013, 10:47 AM
  #181
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Like him or hate him, you can't argue Phil's talent....

And this year, where he has taken a lot of hate, he is still top 30 in scoring, and has shown his maturity as a player.

6 years at 7.5 million is perfectly acceptable, in my opinion.

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03-27-2013, 10:52 AM
  #182
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Contract negotiations with Kessel in my opinion will not go well. He wanted more money than his team mate in Boston and when not offered that amount he told his agent to get him a offer sheet.

He will want to be paid as an elite player and that is at least 8 million per year and maximum term along with a NMC and NTC. I do not feel he is worth more than 6.5 or so for what he brings to the table.

I do not know what we could get for him on the trade market but it needs to be explored....
Nonis was interviewed recently and was asked directly about the pending expiring contracts of Kessel & Phaneuf.

He responded that they (the organization) is still evaluating the future in regards to these 2 players going forward. He complimented them about being good players, but was very vague & came across indecisive about new contracts and securing them long term. There was nothing stated about being key components and working diligently on getting them locked up. I thought it was rather telling that he left more questions than answers after the interview in regards to Kessel's future.

Kessel is not a Carlyle type player as he is certainly not the type of player strong along the boards or physical or good on the offense zone cycle game, all key components of the coaches preferred system.

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03-27-2013, 10:54 AM
  #183
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Like him or hate him, you can't argue Phil's talent....

And this year, where he has taken a lot of hate, he is still top 30 in scoring, and has shown his maturity as a player.

6 years at 7.5 million is perfectly acceptable, in my opinion.
Top 20 actually. Reading some posters on this board, you'd think he was still look for his first goal of the season.

Anyway, one should hope Lupul continues to look as good as he has. Having him signed to a long term deal at $5.25m should help drive Kessel price downward. You can't expect to make more than 2 million dollars more than (arguably) the best winger on the ice on any given night.

7 years @ 7 million would be fair. 7 years @ 6.5 million would be a coup.

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03-27-2013, 10:56 AM
  #184
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On the other hand in terms of expendable, the Bruins never missed a beat and went on to win the Stanley Cup without him.
Didn't miss a beat? In the 08/09 season, Phil's last with Boston, they finished 1st in the Northeast with 116 points. Phil had 36 goals.

In the 09/10 season, Phil's first with Toronto, they finished 3rd in the Northeast with 91 points and lost in the 2nd round to the Flyers. The infamous choke after being up 3-0.

They re-tooled and had some breakout performances in their SC season....the next season.

Revisionist history at its worst.

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03-27-2013, 10:56 AM
  #185
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Nonis was interviewed recently and was asked directly about the pending expiring contracts of Kessel & Phaneuf.

He responded that they (the organization) is still evaluating the future in regards to these 2 players going forward. He complimented them about being good players, but was very vague & came across indecisive about new contracts and securing them long term. There was nothing stated about being key components and working diligently on getting them locked up. I thought it was rather telling that he left more questions than answers after the interview in regards to Kessel's future.
Good general managers do not divulge actual information to the media. They should treat them like mushrooms; feed them crap, and keep them in the dark. I wouldn't read too much into it.

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03-27-2013, 10:58 AM
  #186
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Didn't miss a beat? In the 08/98 season, Phil's last with Boston, they finished 1st in the Northeast with 116 points. Phil had 36 goals.

In the 09/10 season, Phil's first with Toronto, they finished 3rd in the Northeast with 91 points and lost in the 2nd round to the Flyers. The infamous choke after being up 3-0.

They re-tooled and had some breakout performances in their SC season.

Revisionist history at its worst.
Like I said, the Bruins lost with Kessel, and then won it all without him, not sure what is revisionist about the truth.

The trading of Kessel was a benefit not a downfall to the organization because his contributions offensively were replaced by others.

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03-27-2013, 10:59 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Nonis was interviewed recently and was asked directly about the pending expiring contracts of Kessel & Phaneuf.

He responded that they (the organization) is still evaluating the future in regards to these 2 players going forward. He complimented them about being good players, but was very vague & came across indecisive about new contracts and securing them long term. There was nothing stated about being key components and working diligently on getting them locked up. I thought it was rather telling that he left more questions than answers after the interview in regards to Kessel's future.

Kessel is not a Carlyle type player as he is certainly not the type of player strong along the boards or physical or good on the offense zone cycle game, all key components of the coaches preferred system.
you've made all of this up. none of it is true.

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03-27-2013, 11:01 AM
  #188
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Kessel's game, its good and bad aspects make him a nice to have, but not a necessary component of a winning team.
Agreed. It's all about value dealing with a salary cap.

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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Nonis was interviewed recently and was asked directly about the pending expiring contracts of Kessel & Phaneuf.

He responded that they (the organization) is still evaluating the future in regards to these 2 players going forward. He complimented them about being good players, but was very vague & came across indecisive about new contracts and securing them long term. There was nothing stated about being key components and working diligently on getting them locked up. I thought it was rather telling that he left more questions than answers after the interview in regards to Kessel's future.
I'm happy to hear that. ~$14m/year is a lot of money.

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03-27-2013, 11:08 AM
  #189
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Like I said, the Bruins lost with Kessel, and then won it all without him, not sure what is revisionist about the truth.

The trading of Kessel was a benefit not a downfall to the organization because his contributions offensively were replaced by others.
What is revisionist is you saying they didn't miss a beat when clearly they were an inferior team the next season. What were bigger factors in the Bruins SC win? The subtraction of Kessel or the breakout seasons from Lucic and to a lesser extent Bergeron and Krejci? Along with the goaltending from the Conn Smythe winner?

Or maybe I'm just a little touchy with all this undeserved bashing Kessel has been getting from this forum.

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03-27-2013, 11:09 AM
  #190
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Agreed. It's all about value dealing with a salary cap.



I'm happy to hear that. ~$14m/year is a lot of money.
If Nonis is able to deal Kessel in trade and propel the organization forward (as Boston did in the past) and define HIS stamp design on the team going forward then I for one would be all for it.

It comes down to value, and you have to weigh player contributions verses remuneration and cap consequences. With Kessel that is not as straight forward as some make it out be, because his shortcomings must always be a factor worthy of consideration as to need or want to have on our team.

If you want to win it all (which is the ultimate goal) you have to invest your money in those players you believe are a part of the solution.

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03-27-2013, 11:11 AM
  #191
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Didn't miss a beat? In the 08/09 season, Phil's last with Boston, they finished 1st in the Northeast with 116 points. Phil had 36 goals.

In the 09/10 season, Phil's first with Toronto, they finished 3rd in the Northeast with 91 points and lost in the 2nd round to the Flyers. The infamous choke after being up 3-0.

They re-tooled and had some breakout performances in their SC season....the next season.

Revisionist history at its worst.
Yea, and we added Kessel and then finished in the worst position this franchise has finished in over the past 25 years. What's your point? It's a team game, it requires a bit more context than that.

Boston didn't drop down in the standings ONLY because they lost Kessel. Savard was injured and only played 41 games after being their #1 C the previous season. Recchi was getting older and saw his point totals drop by 20 odd points, etc.

Just like adding Kessel isn't why the Leafs came in the worst position in recent franchise history. That had to do with the fact that this team completely undervalued what Kubina, Antropov, and Moore brought to the table, those guys were all gone from the year before.

Overall, the last few years, it doesn't look like Boston is missing Kessel much. They won the Cup without him, PRIOR to receiving anything from his trade that really helped at the NHL level. Seguin didn't break out until the subsequent season. They moved both Kessel and Wideman, two of the guys considered the most one-dimensional at their respective positions in the league, and won the Cup without them.

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03-27-2013, 11:22 AM
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Yea, and we added Kessel and then finished in the worst position this franchise has finished in over the past 25 years. What's your point? It's a team game, it requires a bit more context than that. Boston didn't drop down in the standings ONLY because they lost Kessel. Savard was injured and only played 41 games after being their #1 C the previous season. Recchi was getting older and saw his point totals drop by 20 odd points, etc.
My point was that Boston did in fact miss a beat between letting Kessel go and winning the Cup. That beat was the 09/10 season. Where did I suggest that it was Kessel that was the sole reason for this?

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Just like adding Kessel isn't why the Leafs came in the worst position in recent franchise history. That had to do with the fact that this team completely undervalued what Kubina, Antropov, and Moore brought to the table, those guys were all gone from the year before.

Overall, the last few years, it doesn't look like Boston is missing Kessel much. They won the Cup without him, PRIOR to receiving anything from his trade that really helped at the NHL level. Seguin didn't break out until the subsequent season. They moved both Kessel and Wideman, two of the guys considered the most one-dimensional at their respective positions in the league, and won the Cup without them.
I'm a big believer in the saying "correlation doesn't imply causation". Especially the correlation of adding a 30-35 goal scorer and then falling to 2nd last in the league.

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03-27-2013, 11:26 AM
  #193
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On the other hand in terms of expendable, the Bruins never missed a beat and went on to win the Stanley Cup without him.

Kessel's game, its good and bad aspects make him a nice to have, but not a necessary component of a winning team.

Can people think of any games this season, in one where Leafs are having their best in years where its been Kessel's goal scoring abilities that have sealed victories?
Funny people keep bringing this up like trading Kessel won them the cup. You'd think they'd be a dynasty by now.
You think maybe if Kessel's there, Tim Thomas suddenly doesn't go into god mode?

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03-27-2013, 11:29 AM
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My point was that Boston did in fact miss a beat between letting Kessel go and winning the Cup. That beat was the 09/10 season. Where did I suggest that it was Kessel that was the sole reason for this?



I'm a big believer in the saying "correlation doesn't imply causation". Especially the correlation of adding a 30-35 goal scorer and then falling to 2nd last in the league.
That was my point. That if Boston dropped a little in the standings with the loss of Kessel, you can't say that they dropped in the standings directly due to not having Kessel, just like you can't say Toronto dropped in the standings because they added Kessel. There's far more context to both scenarios.

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03-27-2013, 11:29 AM
  #195
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Good general managers do not divulge actual information to the media. They should treat them like mushrooms; feed them crap, and keep them in the dark. I wouldn't read too much into it.
I agree, though he didn't mention re-signing Kadri either. Good as gone if you ask me.

People will see what they wanna see.

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03-27-2013, 11:31 AM
  #196
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Yea, and we added Kessel and then finished in the worst position this franchise has finished in over the past 25 years. What's your point? It's a team game, it requires a bit more context than that.

Boston didn't drop down in the standings ONLY because they lost Kessel. Savard was injured and only played 41 games after being their #1 C the previous season. Recchi was getting older and saw his point totals drop by 20 odd points, etc.

Just like adding Kessel isn't why the Leafs came in the worst position in recent franchise history. That had to do with the fact that this team completely undervalued what Kubina, Antropov, and Moore brought to the table, those guys were all gone from the year before.

Overall, the last few years, it doesn't look like Boston is missing Kessel much. They won the Cup without him, PRIOR to receiving anything from his trade that really helped at the NHL level. Seguin didn't break out until the subsequent season. They moved both Kessel and Wideman, two of the guys considered the most one-dimensional at their respective positions in the league, and won the Cup without them.
You're right, they didn't. But can you prove they wouldn't have won the cup had he still been there?

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03-27-2013, 11:31 AM
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That was my point. That if Boston dropped a little in the standings with the loss of Kessel, you can't say that they dropped in the standings directly due to not having Kessel, just like you can't say Toronto dropped in the standings because they added Kessel. There's far more context to both scenarios.
It seems that we agree on the premise. My post you quoted was a reply to the moderator.

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03-27-2013, 11:32 AM
  #198
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Funny people keep bringing this up like trading Kessel won them the cup. You'd think they'd be a dynasty by now.
You think maybe if Kessel's there, Tim Thomas suddenly doesn't go into god mode?
Trading Kessel did not win them the Cup, they won it with out him is the point.

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03-27-2013, 11:35 AM
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Funny people keep bringing this up like trading Kessel won them the cup. You'd think they'd be a dynasty by now.
You think maybe if Kessel's there, Tim Thomas suddenly doesn't go into god mode?
Tim Thomas 2008-2009 was very comparable to Tim Thomas 2010-2011. It wasn't like it was this flash in the pan wonder improvement.

2008-2009:
2.10 GAA and 0.933 save % (regular season)
1.85 GAA and 0.935 save % (playoffs)

2010-2011:
2.00 GAA and 0.938 save % (regular season)
1.98 GAA and 0.940 save % (playoffs)

That is the slightest of improvements. Hardly "God Mode" level improvements over 2008-2009. He won the Vezina in 2008-2009 as you may recall... Boston doing better in 2010-2011 compared to 2008-2009 wasn't really attributable to Thomas.

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03-27-2013, 11:36 AM
  #200
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Trading Kessel did not win them the Cup, they won it with out him is the point.
So they won it without him, not sure what that has to do with Phil Kessel?
Did subtracting him lead directly to their Cup, or was it simply a dumb comment that could be construed as trolling?

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