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Sean Couturier for Bobby Ryan?

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Old
03-26-2013, 01:42 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by DuckNoire View Post
Where is that coming from? I have been wondering about that. Malkin played 6 games against the Flyers and had 8 pts. How was he shut down by Couturier?
Here is the thread I made about it:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1175395

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03-26-2013, 01:43 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Here is the thread I made about it:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1175395
Ah so it was 3 points and no goals in 12 games. I was close.

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03-26-2013, 01:51 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
In 23 games.


Couturier has 7 in 29 while playing in a defensive role. Not much difference at the same point in their respective careers.

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03-26-2013, 01:57 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post


Couturier has 7 in 29 while playing in a defensive role. Not much difference at the same point in their respective careers.
Except that players don't develop at the same rate, and the very next season Bobby Ryan put up 30 goals, and 57 points in 64 games and did it while spending part of the season on the 4th line.

The potential argument only goes so far, and it simply doesn't match up to a consistent 30-goal scorer and winger of Ryan's proven caliber.

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03-26-2013, 02:07 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
You don't think he's been a little disappointing offensively? Following up a 10 goal / 40 pt effort w/ half the goals and only 29 pts and now pacing for 0 goals and 17 pts/82 games?

He's been solid defensively no doubt, but he hasn't exactly been living up to the #1 defenseman billing that he's gotten around here.
Not disappointed at all, his points dont show how good hes actually been offensively this season. And how much his defensive game has matured, hes a lot closer to being a number 1 then he was last year thats for sure.

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03-26-2013, 02:27 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Except that players don't develop at the same rate, and the very next season Bobby Ryan put up 30 goals, and 57 points in 64 games and did it while spending part of the season on the 4th line.

The potential argument only goes so far, and it simply doesn't match up to a consistent 30-goal scorer and winger of Ryan's proven caliber.
Ok?

How does that change the fact that Couturier's horrific slump is not materially different than Ryan's 20 year old season? Not to mention that I doubt Ryan was used in shutdown role like Couturier. Couturier starts 35.5% of his shifts in the offensive zone, while Ryan started 66.7% of his in the offensive zone when he was 20, the highest % out of any player that year for the Ducks. He was put in a favorable position to score points, and at the very least was not relied on defensively.

He may not have more value than Ryan right now, but I think I'd rather hold on to Couturier and look for scoring help elsewhere.

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03-26-2013, 02:47 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Ok?

How does that change the fact that Couturier's horrific slump is not materially different than Ryan's 20 year old season? Not to mention that I doubt Ryan was used in shutdown role like Couturier. Couturier starts 35.5% of his shifts in the offensive zone, while Ryan started 66.7% of his in the offensive zone when he was 20, the highest % out of any player that year for the Ducks. He was put in a favorable position to score points, and at the very least was not relied on defensively.

He may not have more value than Ryan right now, but I think I'd rather hold on to Couturier and look for scoring help elsewhere.
Well, for starters, Ryan at 20 years of age wasn't NHL ready. He was a big bodied skill forward who needed to improve his conditioning. His experience as a 20 year old was basically to have a cup of coffee in the NHL, and then back to the AHL for further development and conditioning.

Sean Couturier already has a full NHL season under his belt. So, either the Flyers feel he is NHL ready, or they just don't have better options. Considering they were willing to move Richards and Carter, I'm inclined to think it's the former.

The bottom line for me is that an NHL ready Bobby Ryan was significantly better than an NHL ready Sean Couturier. Since that time Ryan has been a consistent 30-goal scorer, and he's done it without 1st unit PP time. Couturier might have the potential to match, or exceed Ryan. Might. But Ryan is clearly the better player right now, and an established NHL player with Ryan's numbers is just going to be worth more than an established NHL player with potential. The NHL is result driven. Ryan has the results. It's really that simple.

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03-26-2013, 02:50 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I don't think he's been disappointing offensively at all. Fowler is a catalyst. Don't make the mistake of thinking because the numbers aren't there the offensive opportunities aren't.
As long as you're happy with him, that's all that matters I guess.
Not sure exactly what he's a "catalyst" for though.. he had the 3rd highest GFON/60 of defensemen on your team last year, but the worst GAON/60 and worst Goal Differential/60.

This year, he has the lowest GFON/60 of any defenseman on your team and the 3rd best GAON/60, but again he's one of the worst in terms of Goal Differential.

I guess I'd want my #1 defenseman to be a little more productive than that... especially this year, doesn't seem like he's creating much offense.

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03-26-2013, 02:54 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Considering they were willing to move Richards and Carter, I'm inclined to think it's the former.
Couturier was drafted with the pick acquired for trading Carter, so I'm not sure how the Flyers could have known that they were going to get Couturier or that he was NHL ready when they made those trades.

Couturier is a classic sophomore slump combined with complete use in a shutdown role. He's getting limited opportunities to score, then struggling to take advantage of those opportunities (low shooting % relative to last year or his play at any level). He still shows flashes of ability that made him a top scorer in the Q, so I fully expect that his offensive game will improve over time and experience.

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03-26-2013, 02:58 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Well, for starters, Ryan at 20 years of age wasn't NHL ready. He was a big bodied skill forward who needed to improve his conditioning. His experience as a 20 year old was basically to have a cup of coffee in the NHL, and then back to the AHL for further development and conditioning.

Sean Couturier already has a full NHL season under his belt. So, either the Flyers feel he is NHL ready, or they just don't have better options. Considering they were willing to move Richards and Carter, I'm inclined to think it's the former.
Eh, the Flyers moved Carter and Richards before they knew they would have Couturier. By most accounts, they were targeting Duncan Siemens with that #8 overall pick, and were prepared to take him over Hamilton. The Jets' selection of Schiefele allowed Couturier to fall to them, so they took him.

They did not expect Couturier to make the team last year--but he forced his way onto it with his play in training camp, the preseason, and the first 9 games. He was their best defensive forward from game 1, so they simply couldn't return him.

That said, in some ways, his offensive game still isn't NHL-ready. He's still growing into his frame, and while his skating is improved, it isn't where it needs to be. He's on the team because of the role he can play defensively--where the Flyers have no better option.

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The bottom line for me is that an NHL ready Bobby Ryan was significantly better than an NHL ready Sean Couturier. Since that time Ryan has been a consistent 30-goal scorer, and he's done it without 1st unit PP time. Couturier might have the potential to match, or exceed Ryan. Might. But Ryan is clearly the better player right now, and an established NHL player with Ryan's numbers is just going to be worth more than an established NHL player with potential. The NHL is result driven. Ryan has the results. It's really that simple.
Couturier certainly has the potential to exceed Ryan's production, but I don't think he ever will. That said, he doesn't necessarily need to match the 30-goal mark to hold greater value, as Couturier is already a better defensive player than Ryan (IMO and based on my observations--though I'm sure some people have stats to prove or disprove that notion).

That said, and for about the 10th time in this thread, no one is arguing that Couturier holds more value right now. No Flyers fan would expect a straight-up trade, and no Flyers fan seems to want to make the trade happen enough to figure out what the difference in value is in terms of tradeable assets.

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03-26-2013, 03:08 PM
  #261
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At this point I'd love a Ryan trade to Philly to take place, just to figure out what the actual value would be.

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03-26-2013, 03:16 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Well, for starters, Ryan at 20 years of age wasn't NHL ready. He was a big bodied skill forward who needed to improve his conditioning. His experience as a 20 year old was basically to have a cup of coffee in the NHL, and then back to the AHL for further development and conditioning.

Sean Couturier already has a full NHL season under his belt. So, either the Flyers feel he is NHL ready, or they just don't have better options. Considering they were willing to move Richards and Carter, I'm inclined to think it's the former.

The bottom line for me is that an NHL ready Bobby Ryan was significantly better than an NHL ready Sean Couturier. Since that time Ryan has been a consistent 30-goal scorer, and he's done it without 1st unit PP time. Couturier might have the potential to match, or exceed Ryan. Might. But Ryan is clearly the better player right now, and an established NHL player with Ryan's numbers is just going to be worth more than an established NHL player with potential. The NHL is result driven. Ryan has the results. It's really that simple.
No offense, but this "nhl-ready" qualifier seems like arbitrary goal-post shifting. Seems like the sort of thing where someone could take any sort of late-bloomer, compare him to a younger player (who is, of course, "NHL ready" at whatever age the comparer wants him to be to make the comparison show what it is he wants to show) and say he was better as soon as he was "NHL ready."

You're opening the door to things like "Mike Ribeiro was NHL ready at 24...Stamkos at 18...Ribs had a much better season in his first "NHL ready" season." Which is an argument without real meaning.

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03-26-2013, 03:19 PM
  #263
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If I'm Anaheim, I'm not moving anyone.

They're winning hockey games left right and center, don't change a thing.

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03-26-2013, 03:22 PM
  #264
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Flyers would have to add a significant piece. Ryan>>Couturier

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03-26-2013, 03:23 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
As long as you're happy with him, that's all that matters I guess.
Not sure exactly what he's a "catalyst" for though.. he had the 3rd highest GFON/60 of defensemen on your team last year, but the worst GAON/60 and worst Goal Differential/60.

This year, he has the lowest GFON/60 of any defenseman on your team and the 3rd best GAON/60, but again he's one of the worst in terms of Goal Differential.

I guess I'd want my #1 defenseman to be a little more productive than that... especially this year, doesn't seem like he's creating much offense.
This is where watching the games trumps stat watching. Fowler makes things happen on the ice. He's ridiculously good at just taking control and changing the flow of the game, offensively and defensively.

Fowler isn't Anaheim's #1. I'm not sure Anaheim has a true #1, but if they did it would be Beauchemin right now. It's actually taken a career year from Beauchemin, and one worthy of Norris mention, for this to be the case, though, and even with that in mind when Fowler is on his game he is Anaheim's top dog. He has #1 potential, I think, but I don't think he is a #1. Not yet.

Remember that Fowler just turned 21. His first season he was sheltered defensively, and used primarily in offensive roles. His second season he was matched up against the opposing team's top players. The +/- might not show it, but he made significant progress defensively last season, but was rather conservative on the offensive side of the game. This season, he's just been terrific everywhere. Not since Scott Niedermayer has Anaheim had a defenseman who could dictate the game the way Fowler has.

Fowler is a special player, and I don't use that term as loosely as some. Usually it seems to refer to players who you people think can be really good. For me, I think it applies to players who can be as good as they want to be, and Cam Fowler can be as good as he wants to be.

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03-26-2013, 03:30 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Well, for starters, Ryan at 20 years of age wasn't NHL ready. He was a big bodied skill forward who needed to improve his conditioning. His experience as a 20 year old was basically to have a cup of coffee in the NHL, and then back to the AHL for further development and conditioning.

Sean Couturier already has a full NHL season under his belt. So, either the Flyers feel he is NHL ready, or they just don't have better options. Considering they were willing to move Richards and Carter, I'm inclined to think it's the former.

The bottom line for me is that an NHL ready Bobby Ryan was significantly better than an NHL ready Sean Couturier. Since that time Ryan has been a consistent 30-goal scorer, and he's done it without 1st unit PP time. Couturier might have the potential to match, or exceed Ryan. Might. But Ryan is clearly the better player right now, and an established NHL player with Ryan's numbers is just going to be worth more than an established NHL player with potential. The NHL is result driven. Ryan has the results. It's really that simple.
1) Saying Ryan was not ready at the age Couturier was is not an argument against Couturier.

2) Others have mentioned it, but Couturier was taken with the pick received from the Carter trade. He had no bearing on him being dealt.

3) Couturier is NHL ready because of his defense, a skill Ryan does not possess. His offense is not top 6 NHL ready yet, but neither was Ryan's at the same age. He does not need to be the 30 goal forward Ryan is to be better than him. He will likely always be used in a much more defensive role, and if he is around a 50 point player while playing elite defense he will be more valuable than Ryan

4) I never said Ryan was worth less, he is worth more. I said I'd rather look elsewhere for scoring help than trade Couturier.

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03-26-2013, 03:32 PM
  #267
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Would the gap between Ryan and Couturier be filled by a swap of the 1st rounders of both teams this year? That is assuming the Ducks have a Bottom 15 Pick and the Flyers pick is around 5-10th overall?

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03-26-2013, 03:36 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
No offense, but this "nhl-ready" qualifier seems like arbitrary goal-post shifting. Seems like the sort of thing where someone could take any sort of late-bloomer, compare him to a younger player (who is, of course, "NHL ready" at whatever age the comparer wants him to be to make the comparison show what it is he wants to show) and say he was better as soon as he was "NHL ready."

You're opening the door to things like "Mike Ribeiro was NHL ready at 24...Stamkos at 18...Ribs had a much better season in his first "NHL ready" season." Which is an argument without real meaning.
Sure, in a vacuum, I'd agree, but this isn't a vacuum. Bobby Ryan wasn't 24 when he entered the NHL, and the player we're comparing him to isn't Stamkos. So, that example is more than a little extreme. Not to mention, since then, Stamkos has been one of the best players in the NHL. No one would say that about Ribeiro.

In the context of this discussion, we're talking about a 20 year old Bobby Ryan who had a cup of coffee with the Ducks, but just wasn't ready. When he was ready, he showed what he was capable of, and hasn't looked back. How many forwards are in the NHL who have consistently been able to score 30 or more goals?

Using Ryan's 20 year old season as an argument against him is a shallow and weak argument. I doubt anyone here is realistically looking at Couturier's season this year as the limit of his potential, but are you going to try to tell me that, just because Ryan broke out in a big way at 21 means Couturier will do the same? And if not, why are we talking about Ryan's 23 games as a 20 year old?

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03-26-2013, 03:37 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
1) Saying Ryan was not ready at the age Couturier was is not an argument against Couturier.

2) Others have mentioned it, but Couturier was taken with the pick received from the Carter trade. He had no bearing on him being dealt.

3) Couturier is NHL ready because of his defense, a skill Ryan does not possess. His offense is not top 6 NHL ready yet, but neither was Ryan's at the same age. He does not need to be the 30 goal forward Ryan is to be better than him. He will likely always be used in a much more defensive role, and if he is around a 50 point player while playing elite defense he will be more valuable than Ryan

4) I never said Ryan was worth less, he is worth more. I said I'd rather look elsewhere for scoring help than trade Couturier.
I think a lot of clubs would value a consistent 30 goal power forward over a superior defensive player with more modest output any day of the week.

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03-26-2013, 03:37 PM
  #270
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Would the gap between Ryan and Couturier be filled by a swap of the 1st rounders of both teams this year? That is assuming the Ducks have a Bottom 15 Pick and the Flyers pick is around 5-10th overall?
Not for the Flyers. While this draft is deep, the top 10 is a far cry from the bottom 10 in terms of abilities for us to finally add a potential top defensive prospect.

I suppose if we waited til the draft and saw who the Flyers might get, it would be one thing, but with the potential for the pick to be top 3, it's definitely impossible to include that 1st rounder.

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03-26-2013, 03:39 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
1) Saying Ryan was not ready at the age Couturier was is not an argument against Couturier.

2) Others have mentioned it, but Couturier was taken with the pick received from the Carter trade. He had no bearing on him being dealt.

3) Couturier is NHL ready because of his defense, a skill Ryan does not possess. His offense is not top 6 NHL ready yet, but neither was Ryan's at the same age. He does not need to be the 30 goal forward Ryan is to be better than him. He will likely always be used in a much more defensive role, and if he is around a 50 point player while playing elite defense he will be more valuable than Ryan

4) I never said Ryan was worth less, he is worth more. I said I'd rather look elsewhere for scoring help than trade Couturier.
1) I didn't say it was. I said not being NHL ready at the same age as Couturier isn't an argument against Ryan.

2) You're right, that was my mistake.

3) Also correct, Couturier does not necessarily need to match Ryans offense, but the difference in offense right now vastly outweighs the defensive contributions, and we know what Ryan is capable of offensively. We have yet to see with Couturier, and a consistent 30-goal scorer is hugely valuable to any team.

4) I'm not disputing how Philly fans would feel about moving Couturier for Ryan. That's your opinion. Me? I might consider moving Ryan for Couturier in the off-season, if the + from Philly is worth it.

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03-26-2013, 03:39 PM
  #272
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Not for the Flyers. While this draft is deep, the top 10 is a far cry from the bottom 10 in terms of abilities for us to finally add a potential top defensive prospect.

I suppose if we waited til the draft and saw who the Flyers might get, it would be one thing, but with the potential for the pick to be top 3, it's definitely impossible to include that 1st rounder.
Fair enough thought as much. But I don't think the Flyers will continue to suck hard enough to be in the bottom 5.

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03-26-2013, 03:43 PM
  #273
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If I'm Anaheim, I'm not moving anyone.

They're winning hockey games left right and center, don't change a thing.
I think most of us(that is, Anaheim fans) feel that a deal like this would be an off-season move. Anything done this season should be an upgrade for the playoffs, and a move like this is more lateral, meant to shift the team strengths around a bit.

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03-26-2013, 03:45 PM
  #274
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But I don't think the Flyers will continue to suck hard enough to be in the bottom 5.
While I agree, the Flyers and the fans have said the same thing the whole season.... and it just hasn't happened. Talentwise, we're not a bottom 5 team, but we definitely need a system change or some serious personnel adjustments to execute the current scheme, especially on the back end.

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03-26-2013, 03:49 PM
  #275
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While I agree, the Flyers and the fans have said the same thing the whole season.... and it just hasn't happened. Talentwise, we're not a bottom 5 team, but we definitely need a system change or some serious personnel adjustments to execute the current scheme, especially on the back end.
I don't watch that many Flyers games, what is actually the issue? Lack of scoring? Bad D? Bad goaltending? Or has the coach just lost the team?

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