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Sean Couturier for Bobby Ryan?

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Old
03-26-2013, 04:51 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I think a lot of clubs would value a consistent 30 goal power forward over a superior defensive player with more modest output any day of the week.
Maybe he'd get paid more because goal scorers get paid, although Staal did get a $60 million contract, but a 60 point offensive winger is not as valuable as a 50 point elite defensive center. I also think Couturier is capable of becoming a 60 point player himself.

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03-26-2013, 05:01 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Maybe he'd get paid more because goal scorers get paid, although Staal did get a $60 million contract, but a 60 point offensive winger is not as valuable as a 50 point elite defensive center. I also think Couturier is capable of becoming a 60 point player himself.
Calling Ryan a 60-point offensive winger is a little misleading, don't you think? That's like me calling Ryan Getzlaf a 15-20 goal scoring center.

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03-26-2013, 05:01 PM
  #278
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Not for the Flyers. While this draft is deep, the top 10 is a far cry from the bottom 10 in terms of abilities for us to finally add a potential top defensive prospect.

I suppose if we waited til the draft and saw who the Flyers might get, it would be one thing, but with the potential for the pick to be top 3, it's definitely impossible to include that 1st rounder.

Philly will not end get a top 3 pick. But for arguments sake lets say they end up with the 3rd overall.

You could easily argue that Ryan + ANA 1st is equal to SC + 3rd overall.

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03-26-2013, 05:01 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by DuckNoire View Post
I don't watch that many Flyers games, what is actually the issue? Lack of scoring? Bad D? Bad goaltending? Or has the coach just lost the team?
All of the above, honestly.

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Originally Posted by jonrazor12 View Post
You could easily argue that Ryan + ANA 1st is equal to SC + 3rd overall.
Not persuasively, no.

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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Calling Ryan a 60-point offensive winger is a little misleading, don't you think? That's like me calling Ryan Getzlaf a 15-20 goal scoring center.
I don't think it is misleading:

Ryan's point totals over the past four seasons (projected over 82 games)

2008–09 Anaheim Ducks NHL 64 31 26 57 (73)
2009–10 Anaheim Ducks NHL 81 35 29 64 (65)
2010–11 Anaheim Ducks NHL 82 34 37 71 (71)
2011–12 Anaheim Ducks NHL 82 31 26 57 (57)

That's an average of 67 points per 82 game season.

The problem is that people tend to forget how big an accomplishment a 60+ point season actually is.

EDIT: Actually, a 65-point forward is probably more appropriate.


Last edited by Jack de la Hoya: 03-26-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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03-26-2013, 05:04 PM
  #280
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I don't watch that many Flyers games, what is actually the issue? Lack of scoring? Bad D? Bad goaltending? Or has the coach just lost the team?
Biggest problem is lack of mobility and skill on defense. They have been terrible at getting the puck out of their own zone, and even at controlling the puck long enough to attempt to get the puck out of their own zone. Thus the desperate need for a PMD. Bryzgalov has been ok, occasionally great, but has been the victim of a huge number of defensive breakdowns leading to easy goals.

Lacking any kind of real transition game, Laviolette's run and gun system has been a disaster this year. But lately (last game against NJ and the other day against Pitt) he has the team playing a more conservative game and they have actually been not too bad.

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03-26-2013, 05:06 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Calling Ryan a 60-point offensive winger is a little misleading, don't you think? That's like me calling Ryan Getzlaf a 15-20 goal scoring center.
No, that's what he is. Misleading would be me calling him a 25-30 assist forward.

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03-26-2013, 05:07 PM
  #282
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Bobby Ryan, Bryan Allen and a 2nd round pick for Sean Couturier and Wayne Simmonds.

In my dreams.

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03-26-2013, 05:08 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by jonrazor12 View Post
Philly will not end get a top 3 pick. But for arguments sake lets say they end up with the 3rd overall.

You could easily argue that Ryan + ANA 1st is equal to SC + 3rd overall.
You could argue it, but no way would the Flyers do that. Right now they look to be in a position where they could take Nurse, who would be an excellent fit for their needs. And then they have the luxury of trading Couturier for whatever else they want, if they want. The only way they trade that first rounder is if it brings back a bona-fide #1 defenseman.

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03-26-2013, 05:10 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
No, that's what he is. Misleading would be me calling him a 30 assist forward.
And I suppose ignoring the consistent 30+ goals isn't significant?

I'd call that misleading. How would you feel if someone said Couturier is just a 27 point forward? That's exactly what he is, but it doesn't really tell you about Couturier, does it?

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03-26-2013, 05:11 PM
  #285
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Please take him off our hands Philly!!!! He's only on pace for 28 goals now (full season).. He's declining bad... Please please help...

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03-26-2013, 05:45 PM
  #286
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Anaheim would definitely make a goalie swap, along with Couts and Ryan going both ways.

Philadelphia wants to get rid of Bryzgalov; Anaheim wants to get rid of Hiller.

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03-26-2013, 05:52 PM
  #287
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Hiller isn't going anywhere right now. He's been the better goalie as of late. He's finally getting his groove back.

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03-26-2013, 05:52 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by allkill326 View Post
Anaheim would definitely make a goalie swap, along with Couts and Ryan going both ways.

Philadelphia wants to get rid of Bryzgalov; Anaheim wants to get rid of Hiller.
What? No. No we don't. Hiller has been excellent. And as far as the few Flyers games I've watched so far this year so has Bryzgalov.

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03-26-2013, 06:08 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by allkill326 View Post
Anaheim would definitely make a goalie swap, along with Couts and Ryan going both ways.

Philadelphia wants to get rid of Bryzgalov; Anaheim wants to get rid of Hiller.
...nice try. Hiller isn't going anywhere and if, by chance, he was he isn't going to be swapped for Bryzgalov and his bajillion year contract.

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03-26-2013, 06:20 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
And I suppose ignoring the consistent 30+ goals isn't significant?

I'd call that misleading. How would you feel if someone said Couturier is just a 27 point forward? That's exactly what he is, but it doesn't really tell you about Couturier, does it?
The 30 goals are incorporated in the 60 points. He is a 60 point (65ish if you want to be more accurate) player, playing with two other very good players. Is there that big of a difference between being a 30 goal 65 point player and being a 25 goal 65 point player, or a 20 goals 65 point player? Goals are worth a little more, but in the end you're still accounting for a similar number of goals scored in a year.

27 points doesn't tell you what Couturier is because it's not likely to be indicative of his true talent, as he's only 20. He also provides defense. Ryan isn't a defensive player, and is in the middle of his prime. It's not really a good comparison.

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03-26-2013, 06:26 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
The 30 goals are incorporated in the 60 points. He is a 60 point (65ish if you want to be more accurate) player, playing with two other very good players. Is there that big of a difference between being a 30 goal 65 point player and being a 25 goal 65 point player, or a 20 goals 65 point player? Goals are worth a little more, but in the end you're still accounting for a similar number of goals scored in a year.

27 points doesn't tell you what Couturier is because it's not likely to be indicative of his true talent, as he's only 20. He also provides defense. Ryan isn't a defensive player, and is in the middle of his prime. It's not really a good comparison.
Interesting bias there. I really don't agree with you at all, and it implies that the 30 goals aren't at all a factor because you've listed the 60 points. That just isn't true, and using your own words "it's not likely to be indicative of his true talent."

You're not applying the same rules to your own player, because for whatever reason you are giving more value to the defense than the goals.

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03-26-2013, 06:42 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
The 30 goals are incorporated in the 60 points. He is a 60 point (65ish if you want to be more accurate) player, playing with two other very good players. Is there that big of a difference between being a 30 goal 65 point player and being a 25 goal 65 point player, or a 20 goals 65 point player? Goals are worth a little more, but in the end you're still accounting for a similar number of goals scored in a year.

27 points doesn't tell you what Couturier is because it's not likely to be indicative of his true talent, as he's only 20. He also provides defense. Ryan isn't a defensive player, and is in the middle of his prime. It's not really a good comparison.
The two bolded statements seem to be using a double standard. Couturier's point total isn't indicative of his true talent, yet Bobby Ryan's career averages are?

You're suggesting Couturier's got more potential than just a 27 point man (which is accurate), but yet you're not acknowledging that Ryan's also got more potential than his career average. Ryan's actually scored 71 points before. Why is that not "indicative of his true talent"?

If you're going to label Couturier as some sort of potential 50 to 60 point two-way center (not sure if you used those exact numbers, but other Flyers fans have), then it's only fair to label Ryan as a 70-80 or so point offensive winger as well.

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03-26-2013, 06:50 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by allkill326 View Post
Anaheim would definitely make a goalie swap, along with Couts and Ryan going both ways.

Philadelphia wants to get rid of Bryzgalov; Anaheim wants to get rid of Hiller.
cant tell if your serious o.O

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03-26-2013, 06:57 PM
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allkill326 View Post
Anaheim would definitely make a goalie swap, along with Couts and Ryan going both ways.

Philadelphia wants to get rid of Bryzgalov; Anaheim wants to get rid of Hiller.
Wtf are you talkin about?

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03-26-2013, 07:51 PM
  #295
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Where did you hear that? 'Cause he didn't say it on Insider Trading. Also it makes no sense. Ryan is more valueable. Philly would jump all over a swap and run.
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03-26-2013, 08:10 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
The two bolded statements seem to be using a double standard. Couturier's point total isn't indicative of his true talent, yet Bobby Ryan's career averages are?

You're suggesting Couturier's got more potential than just a 27 point man (which is accurate), but yet you're not acknowledging that Ryan's also got more potential than his career average. Ryan's actually scored 71 points before. Why is that not "indicative of his true talent"?

If you're going to label Couturier as some sort of potential 50 to 60 point two-way center (not sure if you used those exact numbers, but other Flyers fans have), then it's only fair to label Ryan as a 70-80 or so point offensive winger as well.
But that doesn't make sense. It's not a double standard, it's simple logic. You're comparing a 20 year old to a 26 year old.

Bobby Ryan is 26, has been in the league for 5 seasons, and plays with one of the better playmakers in the league. He scored 71 points one year because he had an abnormal amount of assists, probably due to the fact that Perry had an abnormal amount of goals. What about that suggests he has some untapped potential?

He's been put in a position to score points his entire career. He gets 50+% O zone starts, while playing most of the time with 2 guys who just got $8 million contracts. He is what he is at this point. Could he score 40 one year? With the right luck sure, but that would be the outlier in his career not the norm.

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03-26-2013, 09:12 PM
  #297
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But that doesn't make sense. It's not a double standard, it's simple logic. You're comparing a 20 year old to a 26 year old.

Bobby Ryan is 26, has been in the league for 5 seasons, and plays with one of the better playmakers in the league. He scored 71 points one year because he had an abnormal amount of assists, probably due to the fact that Perry had an abnormal amount of goals. What about that suggests he has some untapped potential?

He's been put in a position to score points his entire career. He gets 50+% O zone starts, while playing most of the time with 2 guys who just got $8 million contracts. He is what he is at this point. Could he score 40 one year? With the right luck sure, but that would be the outlier in his career not the norm.
For starters, Bobby Ryan hasn't consistently been playing with Getzlaf for some time. Since about 2009-2010ish, I'd say. Boudreau, and Carlyle before him, use him to strengthen the 2nd line, and then default him back to the RPG line when they think things aren't working.

Secondly, he has spent almost the entirety of his PP career to date on the 2nd unit. His ES vs. PP totals are disproportionate compared to forwards of similar talent. Your assumption that luck would be required to improve his point totals really doesn't take that into account. At all.

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03-26-2013, 09:13 PM
  #298
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Philadelphia... get a new GM while you can

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03-26-2013, 09:14 PM
  #299
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The Flyers are going to do something stupid.

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03-26-2013, 09:21 PM
  #300
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Philadelphia... get a new GM while you can
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The Flyers are going to do something stupid.
Huh? Did something happen?

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