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Old
03-26-2013, 11:25 AM
  #126
y2kcanucks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
He addresses a need for a tough minute player who can take defensive zone faceoffs without being a black hole offensively.
For $3M. Way too expensive with the cap going down next year. We need an offensive upgrade first and foremost, and paying Jokinen $3M next year with the cap going down won't allow us to seek an upgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
pratically every single roster I see has Goc as the 3rd line C, hell even check the main boards, majority canucks fans willing to trade a 2nd for Goc...
So that means the Canucks want to do that trade?

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:28 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
He addresses a need for a tough minute player who can take defensive zone faceoffs without being a black hole offensively.
Judging by Gillis's interest in Thompson, an prior interest in Bozak, salary is a definite concern for them. His 3m next year costs them something. Maybe Higgins, and by way of that loss, a net zero on the exchange.

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03-26-2013, 11:30 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So that means the Canucks want to do that trade?


no thats why i said canucks fan.. do you think we are talking to each other here or to canucks management?

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:32 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I'm aware of the numbers and I still think the Canucks will pass. He doesn't address a need. He's A natural winger converted to C. The number are good for him, but play style factors in here. Not to mention the implications of his salary next year.
Does it really matter if he's a converted winger if he gets the job done? He might not be ideal in terms of what the team looks for in play style, but again he gets the job done and it's not as though there are many players they could target in UFA this offseason to fill the hole on the third line.

The salary next year is tough to swallow, but the team could use a third line centre (or at the very least a defensively responsible player that is good on faceoffs). Jokinen could, for example, be a good Raymond replacement going forward. He could, for example, line up along side Schroeder so that the team has a reliable faceoff forward on each line.

EDIT: He's also a good penalty killer. It would be the end of Andrew Ebbett on the PK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Judging by Gillis's interest in Thompson, an prior interest in Bozak, salary is a definite concern for them. His 3m next year costs them something. Maybe Higgins, and by way of that loss, a net zero on the exchange.
I agree with that, but I'd rather a transaction that is a net zero next year and a positive this year than a transaction that is a net positive this year but a net negative in the future.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:37 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
no thats why i said canucks fan.. do you think we are talking to each other here or to canucks management?


You said the Canucks want to trade a 2nd for Goc, and you have since edited your post. When I quoted you, you said the Canucks.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:37 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Does it really matter if he's a converted winger if he gets the job done? He might not be ideal in terms of what the team looks for in play style, but again he gets the job done and it's not as though there are many players they could target in UFA this offseason to fill the hole on the third line.

The salary next year is tough to swallow, but the team could use a third line centre (or at the very least a defensively responsible player that is good on faceoffs). Jokinen could, for example, be a good Raymond replacement going forward. He could, for example, line up along side Schroeder so that the team has a reliable faceoff forward on each line.
What's the net gain for replacing Raymond for Jokinen? Marginal I would think.

Normally, I would say style doesn't matter. But I'm going to say now it does. IMO, this team has 3 Cs already that would make better wingers in Lapierre and Kesler. Another one woukd just be hard to take. Vision and play style at that position has become important for this club, simply due to the style of the other Cs here.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:42 AM
  #132
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Jokinen has been dope on shoot-outs before. I imagine a largish percentage of his best seasons came on teams that played for the tie. Jokinen gives you the luxery of a deadly threat in shoot-outs, do the Canucks not need that?

The beauty of Jokinen is the cost! Free! You cannot compare that to a second round pick for Ott, or whatever. This is said to be a great draft and the Canucks are older, now.

Jokinen plays center, is free and can make points on the shoot-out. His salary is near Raymond's. I'd probably go for it, especially if I can deal off salaries elsewhere for picks.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:43 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
What's the net gain for replacing Raymond for Jokinen? Marginal I would think.
It's addressed in my other post, but even a marginal difference for next season is a benefit for the team as any trade for a pending UFA is a net negative in the future.

Also, it doesn't have to be Jokinen or Raymond. The team would be better with Jokinen than Booth, for example (factoring in cap hits, IMO). The team could probably afford to keep Raymond, Higgins, and Jokinen but would be hard pressed to do the same with Booth in Jokinen's place.

Quote:
Normally, I would say style doesn't matter. But I'm going to say now it does. IMO, this team has 3 Cs already that would make better wingers in Lapierre and Kesler. Another one woukd just be hard to take. Vision and play style at that position has become important for this club, simply due to the style of the other Cs here.
What about Jokinen's play style says that he'd be a better winger? He's a pass first player who has almost twice as many assists as goals in his career.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:45 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post


You said the Canucks want to trade a 2nd for Goc, and you have since edited your post. When I quoted you, you said the Canucks.
yeah had a typo, but I wanted to say canucks fans.

I was responding to the debate I had with some posters that they would trade a 2nd for Goc.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:46 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
It's addressed in my other post, but even a marginal different for next season is a benefit for the team as any trade for a pending UFA is a net negative in the future.

Also, it doesn't have to be Jokinen or Raymond. The team would be better with Jokinen than Booth, for example (factoring in cap hits, IMO). The team could probably afford to keep Raymond, Higgins, and Jokinen but would be hard pressed to do the same with Booth in Jokinen's place.



What about Jokinen's play style says that he'd be a better winger? He's a pass first player who has almost twice as many assists as goals in his career.

Getting Jokinen for free, sure beats a 2nd for Goc...

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:49 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
yeah had a typo, but I wanted to say canucks fans.

I was responding to the debate I had with some posters that they would trade a 2nd for Goc.
Fair enough. I agree a 2nd for Goc is ridiculous.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:57 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
Getting Jokinen for free, sure beats a 2nd for Goc...
Especially with the option to buyout Jokinen in the summer if it doesn't work out / cap space is needed for improvements elsewhere... It's a two year commitment... but it can only be a one year commitment if need be... and the Canucks save a higher draft pick, as chances are good a 3rd line player is coming in the next couple weeks anyways...

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:58 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
It's addressed in my other post, but even a marginal difference for next season is a benefit for the team as any trade for a pending UFA is a net negative in the future.

Also, it doesn't have to be Jokinen or Raymond. The team would be better with Jokinen than Booth, for example (factoring in cap hits, IMO). The team could probably afford to keep Raymond, Higgins, and Jokinen but would be hard pressed to do the same with Booth in Jokinen's place.



What about Jokinen's play style says that he'd be a better winger? He's a pass first player who has almost twice as many assists as goals in his career.
He's soft, plays on the perimeter, and suspect in his coverage. Not to mention unsure in transition, but that may be due to the learning curve.

I wouldn't replace Booth for Jokinen. Not the direction this team is going in...

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Old
03-26-2013, 12:17 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Does it really matter if he's a converted winger if he gets the job done? He might not be ideal in terms of what the team looks for in play style, but again he gets the job done and it's not as though there are many players they could target in UFA this offseason to fill the hole on the third line.

The salary next year is tough to swallow, but the team could use a third line centre (or at the very least a defensively responsible player that is good on faceoffs). Jokinen could, for example, be a good Raymond replacement going forward. He could, for example, line up along side Schroeder so that the team has a reliable faceoff forward on each line.

EDIT: He's also a good penalty killer. It would be the end of Andrew Ebbett on the PK.



I agree with that, but I'd rather a transaction that is a net zero next year and a positive this year than a transaction that is a net positive this year but a net negative in the future.
The real question is whether you'd prefer Jokinen to Higgins or Raymond, as you said. Because at 3 million next year, he's going to cost you one of those two -- even if Luongo and Ballard are moved. It would reduce the Canucks ability to spend on a 2nd line center, which is something I'd like to see them address (moving Kesler to the wing).

That's the concern I see.

Then again, if the Canucks could acquire Jokinen, they could even move someone like Raymond in a deadline deal to upgrade their 2nd line.

Food for thought, anyway.

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Old
03-26-2013, 12:20 PM
  #140
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I don't know. If you could get Goc for a late 2nd, he only makes 1.7 next year. The added cap flexibility moving forward makes him an appealing option as well.

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03-26-2013, 12:35 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I wouldn't replace Booth for Jokinen. Not the direction this team is going in...
Jokinen has been significantly more productive than Booth and makes almost 40% less. Jokinen is better defensively, helps on special teams, faceoffs is good in shootouts and much more durable.

If Jokinen is on waivers, where would we peg David Booth's value?

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03-26-2013, 12:41 PM
  #142
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I wonder if it would be possible to acquire Jokinen then trade Mason Raymond.

I like Raymond but I don't think we'll be able to re-sign him and Jokinen has a better track record.

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Old
03-26-2013, 12:41 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Fair enough. I agree a 2nd for Goc is ridiculous.
From everything I've read Jokinen sucks at centre ... way better on the wing. Similar to people suggesting Brad Boyes as a centre option ... also sucks there, way better as a winger.

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03-26-2013, 12:42 PM
  #144
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Keying in on pitseleh's point about moving Booth, another option for the Canucks would be to play Jokinen at center on the 2nd line, put Kesler on RW, and put Raymond or Higgins on the LW. Then you have a beastly 2-way line that can chew up all the horrible minutes you want.

Or, trade for/sign Iginla to play with the Twins and put Burrows with Jokinen and Kesler

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03-26-2013, 12:43 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
He's soft, plays on the perimeter, and suspect in his coverage. Not to mention unsure in transition, but that may be due to the learning curve.

I wouldn't replace Booth for Jokinen. Not the direction this team is going in...
I think that if we make any outside acquisitions to our top-6, Booth should be the first to go. He's simply not working out here, and the best thing for him is a change of scenery, and the best thing for us is to use his cap space on someone actually contributing.

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03-26-2013, 12:45 PM
  #146
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If Jokinen falls to us, I wouldn't mind claiming him.

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Old
03-26-2013, 12:45 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Keying in on pitseleh's point about moving Booth, another option for the Canucks would be to play Jokinen at center on the 2nd line, put Kesler on RW, and put Raymond or Higgins on the LW. Then you have a beastly 2-way line that can chew up all the horrible minutes you want.

Or, trade for/sign Iginla to play with the Twins and put Burrows with Jokinen and Kesler
Hmmm how about this?

Sedin-Sedin-Hansen
Raymond-Schroeder-Iginla
Burrows-Jokinen-Kesler
Booth-Lapierre-Higgins

for the playoffs?

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03-26-2013, 12:45 PM
  #148
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There is virtually no chance Higgins and Raymond get traded at the deadline. They are UFAs so they hold no value to teams re-builidng and teams that are loading up for the playoffs are not going to give up any significant roster players for them. Both of them are contributing right now and the team will not have any cap problems this year especially since both Booth and Malholtra can go on LTIR.

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Old
03-26-2013, 12:48 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Jokinen has been significantly more productive than Booth and makes almost 40% less. Jokinen is better defensively, helps on special teams, faceoffs is good in shootouts and much more durable.

If Jokinen is on waivers, where would we peg David Booth's value?
From what I've read from Canesfans, he's currently playing lazy & uninspired. For all of Booth's faults, you can't pin those on him. Really sounds like a player AV would like right?.

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03-26-2013, 12:50 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by BuzzBuzz View Post
There is virtually no chance Higgins and Raymond get traded at the deadline. They are UFAs so they hold no value to teams re-builidng and teams that are loading up for the playoffs are not going to give up any significant roster players for them. Both of them are contributing right now and the team will not have any cap problems this year especially since both Booth and Malholtra can go on LTIR.
Agreed. Trading them for second or third round picks would be retarded.

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