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Old
04-02-2013, 01:35 PM
  #276
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See we have suffered with two sub par DeMo years now he is playing great and we ship him?
Log jam on D with several prospects who are ready to make the jump. I like Morris's game if it addresses a long term need (goalie next year) or is a deadline overpayment. In the end he is an asset.

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04-02-2013, 01:39 PM
  #277
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Are we still in the playoff hunt? "Yes", likelihood of making it in is slim to none.

We need a #1 center and this draft if we can finish in the bottom 5 will provide us with what we've wanted here for so many years.

It's Lindholm or better or bust in my opinion. No one else but Drouin, MacKinnon, Barkov and Lindholm are true #1 centers.

Dallas just did what we should be doing, selling off parts to get better later. We don't have anyone on our club that would return a 1st except for Yandle, OEL, Doan and Boedker and we're not trading those guys I hope.

All we can expect is to pocket some 2nd rounders and then use some of those 2nd rounders and possibly Klesla to move up late into the 1st round.

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04-02-2013, 01:48 PM
  #278
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The funny thing to me is that the Coyotes are actually improving their chances of making the playoffs ever so slightly because other teams on the bubble are selling off. Dallas and Calgary are completely rebuilding and selling off everything that is not core. There have been a lot of rumblings about San Jose also unloading some guys. The Ducks and Kings are the only two teams that are pretty solid in our division and looking to add not subtract.

It's still a longshot to make the playoffs, and that weak goal should not be the focus, but unless the Coyotes actually join the selling they are just hurting their draft position.

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04-02-2013, 01:50 PM
  #279
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The Fourth Period: The Blackhawks had sent multiple scouts to watch Keith Yandle this week. He has three years left at $5.25 million. Itís unclear how deep talks have been. The Red Wings, Oilers and Flyers also like Yandle.
Start the selling, please. Not necessarily Yandle, but something. I have a sinking feeling that they win tonight and Maloney does nothing.

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04-02-2013, 02:01 PM
  #280
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Start the selling, please. Not necessarily Yandle, but something. I have a sinking feeling that they win tonight and Maloney does nothing.
I'm fine with sitting on our hands. Why have a mass sell off? Nothing we have to sell is particularly valuable. Given the lack of interest in Jussi Jokinen, I'm not sure there's a huge market for David Moss. Steve Sullivan has been really good in three or four games this year where he's tallied the majority of his points. Other than that he's been old and invisible. If he asked for a trade, I'd offer him around for a 7th, but other than that, I don't really see the point.

Torres could be worth a trade, I guess. What's he worth? A third rounder? That's not nothing, but it's barely something. I'd almost rather see if he'd re-sign at a minor discount and hang onto him. He's an effective player.

Klesla would probably fetch us a decent return but not a return that solves our scoring woes. As such, I hang onto him. Strictly because I feel like we're going to have to trade Yandle to get a legit forward. I don't want to end up without BOTH Yandle AND Klesla.

As for Yandle, I'd prefer to wait for the deadline. I want to see where our pick ends up and if moving him can help us get that pick updgraded. Also, at this point we don't know if we need a goalie or not. If we trade Yandle for a forward and then Smith leaves, we've blown an opportunity to get a goalie in a potential Yandle trade.

I'm just fine with doing very little today and tomorrow, and then just planning on addressing needs at the draft.

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04-02-2013, 02:15 PM
  #281
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I don't see any of those players coming back without first testing the market. So sell them for what they are worth, however small. This team is not coming out the other side of this offseason better. Not if they are in Phoenix, that is. Nothing would hurt this franchise more than to win 5 or 6 games, only to fall short. Maloney needs to encourage the tank. The future is significantly brighter with one of the big 4 than it is with a 12-15 pick.

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04-02-2013, 02:33 PM
  #282
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I don't see any of those players coming back without first testing the market. So sell them for what they are worth, however small. This team is not coming out the other side of this offseason better. Not if they are in Phoenix, that is. Nothing would hurt this franchise more than to win 5 or 6 games, only to fall short. Maloney needs to encourage the tank. The future is significantly brighter with one of the big 4 than it is with a 12-15 pick.
Unless a pick is in the first three rounds I have limited interest. Lots of seconds moved so far and to be honest unless we are getting multiple picks in 2nd and 3rd round I'm really not interested; especially when it comes to players like Torres, Morris, Klesla, or Gordon. Maloney should hold out for something that fits a long term need. A Torres and Summers for Bishop type deal that gives us leverage in Smith negotiations for example. I'd be perfectly happy if we did nothing. I'd rather we extended Gordon and Klinkhammer; maybe even Torres.

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04-02-2013, 02:41 PM
  #283
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We don't need to sell of everyone, but what we do need is position ourselves so we can make a trade that gets us what we need.

We have to tank to get in the bottom 5, that is priority #1.

2nd priority is to stockpile 2nd rounders this year (possibly trading Klesla 2nd rounder and prospect or DeMo for 2nd rounder and prospect)

We could then use multiple #2's to move back into the late 1st round to grab a potential top 6 forward (i.e. Klimchuk, Lazar if he is still there, Rychel) or stockpile the 2nd rounders on guys like Hurley, Lodge and Bjorkstrand.

We can accomplish two things with this activity, we clear space for Rundblad and Gormley or Summers on defense and we can get some more assets that can help us in the near future.

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04-02-2013, 02:42 PM
  #284
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. I'd be perfectly happy if we did nothing. I'd rather we extended Gordon and Klinkhammer; maybe even Torres.
As would I, but I don't see it happening. Players have no reason to not test the waters, and Maloney has little flexibility in trying to sign them. Given that, it makes sense to jettison all non essential personnel and see what happens on the ownership front. 2nd and 3rd rounders can turn into useful depth for this organization. Or Maloney can use them at the draft to acquire more moneyball style players. With the cap going down, a lot of teams are swinging for the fences this year. It'd be nice to set the team up to catch some of that regret come next year.

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04-02-2013, 02:47 PM
  #285
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As would I, but I don't see it happening. Players have no reason to not test the waters, and Maloney has little flexibility in trying to sign them. Given that, it makes sense to jettison all non essential personnel and see what happens on the ownership front. 2nd and 3rd rounders can turn into useful depth for this organization. Or Maloney can use them at the draft to acquire more moneyball style players. With the cap going down, a lot of teams are swinging for the fences this year. It'd be nice to set the team up to catch some of that regret come next year.
Klinkhammer u can offer one way deal and years.

Gordon u van offer years. He's more likely to test waters than Klinkhammer.

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04-02-2013, 03:32 PM
  #286
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Isles aren't getting anywhere with Streit. They've been linked to Yandle quite a bit.

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04-02-2013, 03:37 PM
  #287
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See we have suffered with two sub par DeMo years now he is playing great and we ship him?
Well, yes, that's kind of how the market works. You can't sell someone whey they are playing like crap.

XX - What do you think GMDM could have done thus far? I agree with what you are saying, but for discussion sake, what should have done so far?

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04-02-2013, 04:13 PM
  #288
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XX - What do you think GMDM could have done thus far? I agree with what you are saying, but for discussion sake, what should have done so far?
You're going into an offseason where there's more than a good chance that you won't have a job next year. Even if you do, your top 5 coach is probably walking to the highest bidder. The NHL has quietly extended you until the situation resolves itself. You've got no goalies under contract for next year, your top winger isn't signed and you can expect that most every player that is able to walk, will. The team is floundering, having lost 6 straight, including a lengthy scoreless streak. The playoffs seem like a dream, and should you make a miracle run, a spanking by Chicago awaits. A team that easily handled you all season long.

At that point, Maloney should have folded his hand and started the process of cashing in his chips. But because there's no pressing decisions to be made and he can 'afford' to wait, he did. Now there's considerably fewer dance partners and the team is no closer to making the playoffs. By my count, you've got 5 assets that could find a new home without much fuss; Torres, Gordon, Smith, Klesla, Morris. Give them up in that order. Don't give away the last two, but don't fuss over a good return either.

I don't really want to read into it too much, but it seems out of character for Maloney to waffle so much. I bet he has a better read on the ownership situation, and realizes that going for it is probably all this team has left to do, modest draft picks be damned. Then again, this is new territory for everyone. It has to be disappointing. Pretending like a nice little run will get them in isn't the right signal. Saying that Doan is untouchable rubs me the wrong way even more. It's like parents that don't want to make the hard decision, so they keep putting it off.

Me? I'd strip the mofo to the bones for what it's worth and let whoever is buying the team figure it out. But that's based off the belief that they wont stay. rt seems convinced that we are a Yandle trade, training camp and better Smith performance away from the playoffs. I just don't see it. The dynamics have changed. And, at the end of the day, the team overachieved last year. That run should never have been taken as a sign of where this team is at.

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04-02-2013, 04:24 PM
  #289
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You're going into an offseason where there's more than a good chance that you won't have a job next year. Even if you do, your top 5 coach is probably walking to the highest bidder. The NHL has quietly extended you until the situation resolves itself. You've got no goalies under contract for next year, your top winger isn't signed and you can expect that most every player that is able to walk, will. The team is floundering, having lost 6 straight, including a lengthy scoreless streak. The playoffs seem like a dream, and should you make a miracle run, a spanking by Chicago awaits. A team that easily handled you all season long.

At that point, Maloney should have folded his hand and started the process of cashing in his chips. But because there's no pressing decisions to be made and he can 'afford' to wait, he did. Now there's considerably fewer dance partners and the team is no closer to making the playoffs. By my count, you've got 5 assets that could find a new home without much fuss; Torres, Gordon, Smith, Klesla, Morris. Give them up in that order. Don't give away the last two, but don't fuss over a good return either.

I don't really want to read into it too much, but it seems out of character for Maloney to waffle so much. I bet he has a better read on the ownership situation, and realizes that going for it is probably all this team has left to do, modest draft picks be damned. Then again, this is new territory for everyone. It has to be disappointing. Pretending like a nice little run will get them in isn't the right signal. Saying that Doan is untouchable rubs me the wrong way even more. It's like parents that don't want to make the hard decision, so they keep putting it off.

Me? I'd strip the mofo to the bones for what it's worth and let whoever is buying the team figure it out. But that's based off the belief that they wont stay. rt seems convinced that we are a Yandle trade, training camp and better Smith performance away from the playoffs. I just don't see it. The dynamics have changed. And, at the end of the day, the team overachieved last year. That run should never have been taken as a sign of where this team is at.
What have we missed out on? Two second round picks for either Klesla or Morris? Given that the players involved were UFA's and the cap drops $6 mill next year and both our assets carry another year the value being sought may have included the flexibility on next season. Morris and Klesla continue to be assets. A year from now they will still be assets.

On the forward side we don't have a Iginla, Morrrow, or Bouwmeester and I'd argue that the return on these bigger names has been pretty horrific. I wouldn't have moved Doan for the package that landed Iginla. I wouldn't consider Yandle for the package that landed Bouwmeester.

I get where you are coming from but this is not a time to panic. You make a deal that adds value. If the offer doesn't then sit tight.

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04-02-2013, 04:33 PM
  #290
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On the forward side we don't have a Iginla, Morrrow, or Bouwmeester and I'd argue that the return on these bigger names has been pretty horrific. I wouldn't have moved Doan for the package that landed Iginla. I wouldn't consider Yandle for the package that landed Bouwmeester.

I get where you are coming from but this is not a time to panic. You make a deal that adds value. If the offer doesn't then sit tight.
Iginla is an UFA. He wasn't going to sign with Calgary. They want to rebuild. Taking that into consideration, what they got is more than zero. The Coyotes will get zero return on investment for Gordon, Sullivan, Torres, and Smith. In fact, tanking has a value all of its own. Even if you got NOTHING in return for those four, you'd probably cement a top 5 pick, which is probably a franchise player. Instantly becomes our top prospect. That Maloney is passing this up for some extremely remote chance at the playoffs is disheartening. What happens if the Coyotes win 6 or 7, and fall short? Now they're outside the top 10, lose the UFAs, and walk right into the same crappy offseason conditions.

What's the best part of trading UFAs? They might just hit the market again for you to scoop up. No love lost.

I wouldn't trade Yandle for that crap either. But he's not an overpaid loser like Bouwmeester. Calgary is probably happy to have him out of the organization. Would I trade Doan for a 1st round pick, even if it's a later one? Hell yes. What do we have to gain from watching his tiring body skate around for another year with no shot at the playoffs? His contract hit isn't suddenly going to be more appealing next year with the cap coming down. This is/was the year he should have been traded.

You guys keep playing this like it's a normal situation. It never has been and it looks like it never will be.

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04-02-2013, 04:47 PM
  #291
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Iginla is an UFA. He wasn't going to sign with Calgary. They want to rebuild. Taking that into consideration, what they got is more than zero. The Coyotes will get zero return on investment for Gordon, Sullivan, Torres, and Smith. In fact, tanking has a value all of its own. Even if you got NOTHING in return for those four, you'd probably cement a top 5 pick, which is probably a franchise player. Instantly becomes our top prospect. That Maloney is passing this up for some extremely remote chance at the playoffs is disheartening. What happens if the Coyotes win 6 or 7, and fall short? Now they're outside the top 10, lose the UFAs, and walk right into the same crappy offseason conditions.

What's the best part of trading UFAs? They might just hit the market again for you to scoop up. No love lost.

I wouldn't trade Yandle for that crap either. But he's not an overpaid loser like Bouwmeester. Calgary is probably happy to have him out of the organization. Would I trade Doan for a 1st round pick, even if it's a later one? Hell yes. What do we have to gain from watching his tiring body skate around for another year with no shot at the playoffs? His contract hit isn't suddenly going to be more appealing next year with the cap coming down. This is/was the year he should have been traded.

You guys keep playing this like it's a normal situation. It never has been and it looks like it never will be.
What could we have gotten for Gordon? Chicago's 4th rounder? Yippee skippee. not impressed. I wouldn't make that move. I'd hold out for something better and that's exactly what we are doing.

I wouldn't have moved Doan last year for a 1st round pick. Doan is a lifelong Coyote. He's earned the right to move when and if he wants to and to the team of his choice. Similar to the Iginla scenario but a draft day move and at a discount. I'm fine with that. That's the choice we made when we re-signed him last year.

As for the rest of the players you speak of. Smith, Torres, Sullivan. All UFA's. All we got for free. Sullivan has been a bust but it's his 1000th game ceremony tonight. You don't move him prior to that ceremony. You need to carry yourself with some degree of class.

What's market for Smith? Kiprusoff rumored to command possibly a 3rd round pick out of Toronto. Hell we got two thirds for Bryzgalov after the deadline. The market for goalies is very very little and Smith has a concussion right now. Not sure we are going to get a huge premium for a player having a horrific season with a concussion.

Torres? Yeah if a deal is there you make it. The Clowe domino needs to fall first though. Torres wasn't going to go ahead of Iginla, Morrow, etc. He's about 3rd or 4th choice for some teams looking for that element. That needed to play out. He's not going to get you 1st liner. Teams are probably offering 3rd or 4th rounders at this point. I don't see the harm in holding out for value.

XX, I'm with you on treating the UFA's like assets. I just think you think we are going all in with a pair of aces. This is a game of poker that needs to play out. This is not a time to panic and fold for a 4th round pick when a 2nd may be available if you just wait.

Edit: For the record I do not advocate tanking. The record is the record. I would prefer a early pick but I'm not for doing the Oiler rebuild. It's bad karma. That's my perspective and I understand other philosophies. I just think higher of this organization. We do need to still ice a competitive team and build for the next season by bringing up players like Rundblad and Brown and give them an audition for next year.


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04-02-2013, 04:57 PM
  #292
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A buddy of mine is a big Canucks fan. I talked to him today about potential trades and we both liked the idea of Vermette, Gordon and Torres for Schroeder and Raymond. What do you guys think about that? I've always like Schroeder and Raymond and I've been underwhelmed with Vermette. He's great in the dot and solid defensively, but Phoenix has enough guys that are good in the defensive end. Schroeder could potentially provide offense at this level. Obviously there is some risk that he's too small and never puts it together, but from what I've seen Schroeder is capable in his own end as well.

EDIT: Though this was before Vancouver traded for Roy, so they might not have a need for two more centers.

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04-02-2013, 05:16 PM
  #293
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A buddy of mine is a big Canucks fan. I talked to him today about potential trades and we both liked the idea of Vermette, Gordon and Torres for Schroeder and Raymond. What do you guys think about that? I've always like Schroeder and Raymond and I've been underwhelmed with Vermette. He's great in the dot and solid defensively, but Phoenix has enough guys that are good in the defensive end. Schroeder could potentially provide offense at this level. Obviously there is some risk that he's too small and never puts it together, but from what I've seen Schroeder is capable in his own end as well.

EDIT: Though this was before Vancouver traded for Roy, so they might not have a need for two more centers.
We can't afford to move Vermette.

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04-02-2013, 05:30 PM
  #294
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XX, I'm with you on treating the UFA's like assets. I just think you think we are going all in with a pair of aces. This is a game of poker that needs to play out. This is not a time to panic and fold for a 4th round pick when a 2nd may be available if you just wait.


The market for second tier and beyond rentals/deadline players doesn't magically improve the more teams get their fill. It gets much, much worse. These players are mostly interchangeable. If Maloney somehow gets better returns later today or tomorrow, I'll praise him to no end. But it's looking like he isn't willing to make any moves. It's pretty clear that he isn't going to trade Doan, and a Yandle trade has little chance of occurring barring a monster offer.

And "The record is the record" is fine when you are talking about pride. But this is a business, and top 5 picks are worth far more on and off the ice than a few meaningless wins. Good organizations win. Great organizations also know when to lose and fold em. A 48 game season is the perfect place to fold and set your sights on next year.

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04-02-2013, 05:36 PM
  #295
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The market for second tier and beyond rentals/deadline players doesn't magically improve the more teams get their fill. It gets much, much worse. These players are mostly interchangeable. If Maloney somehow gets better returns later today or tomorrow, I'll praise him to no end. But it's looking like he isn't willing to make any moves. It's pretty clear that he isn't going to trade Doan, and a Yandle trade has little chance of occurring barring a monster offer.

And "The record is the record" is fine when you are talking about pride. But this is a business, and top 5 picks are worth far more on and off the ice than a few meaningless wins. Good organizations win. Great organizations also know when to lose and fold em. A 48 game season is the perfect place to fold and set your sights on next year.
We are going to have to disagree on philosophy (which is fine as I get what you are saying I just disagree)

What moves/assets that have been moved today do you feel we missed the boat on? Ignoring Doan for obvious reasons. Tell me the specific transaction that we could have substituted our UFA for and received the same return?

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04-02-2013, 05:45 PM
  #296
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What moves/assets that have been moved today do you feel we missed the boat on? Ignoring Doan for obvious reasons. Tell me the specific transaction that we could have substituted our UFA for and received the same return?
Regehr isn't even under contract and returned 2 2nd round picks. Handzus got a 4th. If that's the market for a 4th line C, that's the market. There's still time for the Coyotes to lose tonight, and time to trade tomorrow. But the number of teams looking for those types of parts gets smaller by the hour. It doesn't really matter if you like the return or not. It's still more than zero.

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04-02-2013, 05:52 PM
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You say that every deal is one less customer, which is true, but it's also one less defenseman/forward on the market for playoff teams. Alot of teams still in the mix haven't made moves. Some of them have probably waffled on price. On the day of the deadline, they'll feel the heat to do something and that's when stupid trades are made by the buyers.
Our best pieces are Yandle and Klesla. I wouldn't be in a hurry to trade either of them if the price wasn't right. I certainly wouldn't trade Klesla for two second rounders.
As to the UFAs, GMDM also has a good idea of where they are at with those guys, too, doesn't he? Don't you think he's talked to Smith, Gordon, et al about how they feel about coming back? Maybe he thinks the odds of re-signing Gordon is better than an extra third round pick. Torres and Sullivan? Sure, ship them out for whatever you can get. Smith? Injured goalie on an off-season? I'm sure Maloney has been swamped with quality offers he's turning down just to spite you...
I'm fine with blowing it up, I just don't know what you're expecting exactly. All the trades that have happened haven't exactly been major coups for the sellers. My guess is the offers haven't been that good.

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04-02-2013, 05:54 PM
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Regehr isn't even under contract and returned 2 2nd round picks. Handzus got a 4th. If that's the market for a 4th line C, that's the market. There's still time for the Coyotes to lose tonight, and time to trade tomorrow. But the number of teams looking for those types of parts gets smaller by the hour. It doesn't really matter if you like the return or not. It's still more than zero.
I wouldn't do Gordon for a 4th. If that's the market I would pass. I'd rather take the chance that you can re-sign Gordon in the next 3 months. We should have final word by the end of the month on where this organization plays next year and we do not have a prospect in the system with the same skill set that Gordon brings.

Yes, Regehr is UFA at season's end. Klesla and Morris both have a year left on their deals going into a year where the cap will drop. Regehr they can likely re-sign for roughly a million less than what our guys will cost next year. Regehr is arguably better than both of our guys as well. I like that price though. I just think we could likely garner that ourselves a year from now. I don't view it as we lost out on anything just yet.

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04-02-2013, 06:09 PM
  #299
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Keep Yandle please.

In a truncated season with total ownership uncertainty, it is not a good trade deadline to design the future of this team, wherever this franchise ends up to be.

Ride the key players to the end of this season and plan the next two years at the draft. Trade the guys who have no future here though.

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04-02-2013, 06:41 PM
  #300
hbk
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Now that Vancouver has lost out on the Clowe sweepstakes I expect a Canucks move to acquire Torres. Be interesting to see who the healthy scratches are tonight.

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