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How pathetic must team be before Gainey reacts?

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Old
09-24-2003, 02:23 PM
  #26
Gros Bill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strummerman
Is Claude Julien the problem? Frankly this team has not played up to par since Julien joined. When a team does not look excited it is time to worry.
You're right! Time to fire the coach, after 3 pre-season games.

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09-24-2003, 02:31 PM
  #27
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If CJ is trying to implement a system this year as he was saying I dont think its fair to judge the teams play just yet. Bottom line is that it takes some time for a team and each player to buy into a system. There are alot of teams that bought into a good system and it made them successful (ie Ottawa, NJ, Minnesota and Anaheim) even tho they dont have a team full of super-stars.

I say give CJ until X-mas to prove that his system can work at the NHL level and then judge him/his system.

Maybe we discovered the next Jacque Martin

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09-24-2003, 02:31 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Ford Prefect
- Trading for Audette
It takes two to trade, and Gainey is equally at fault.

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Old
09-24-2003, 02:32 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strummerman
Is Claude Julien the problem? Frankly this team has not played up to par since Julien joined. When a team does not look excited it is time to worry.
This team hasn't played up to par since the early 90's can't blame Julien for that. I think Jarvis will be the coach in a year or so, he will have a good defensive system. But I like that Julien is good with the younger players.

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09-24-2003, 02:52 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strummerman
Is Claude Julien the problem? Frankly this team has not played up to par since Julien joined. When a team does not look excited it is time to worry.
This is becoming reminiscent of 99% of the board blaming Therrien for the team's problems. Everyone was convinced it was Therrien.

Guess what? It wasn't. When are people going to learn that the coach isn't always to blame?

Take a look at the players. That little Yannic Perreault that many of you claim is a legit second line center... yes, that same player that put up statistics that may lead one to believe he is in fact a good producer. He is not a system player. (By system player, I mean one who is able to play within a system; capable of competing in all aspects of the game that is expected of one's position.)

See that fellow named Donald Audette? He too puts up impressive numbers. He is not a system player either.

Dackell and Juneau are two other players that receive a lot of praise. They were a solid duo two years ago, but both were a step (or three in Juneau's case) behind last season. They were not good system players and were subpar defensively last season.

Brisebois, Czerkawski, Petrov, Ribeiro, Kilger were not system players last season either.

See a pattern? That is 9 players that were subpar in terms of building a system last season. That's a significant chunk of the lineup there. What kind of system can you play when that significant amount of players don't have the capabilities to fulfill the task you are asking of them?

Now, Julien was hired past the mid point of last season. You say they didn't perform well under him, hmm? He did not implement his system as it was drastically different from Therrien's (and because the players had proven to be incapable of playing one system, so why throw another at them mid season?).

There are very few players that make a system work. Let's call them the 'system-makers'. The quantity and quality of 'system-makers' will often predicate how well a team gels and whether they overachieve or underachieve. In short, they make a system work based on strong intangibles and attention to detail.

Based on the play I saw last season, the only 'system makers' I saw were Sundstrom, Bulis, and Koivu. These are leaders on the ice that pay attention to detail first and foremost. They're coachable and stick to the system and the task at hand before doing any individual plays. Now if we take a look at a lineup like Ottawa's or NJ's, we see 90% of the team are system players. We see a significant amount (roughly 8-10) that are system makers, and it rubs off on the rest.

There are too many mercenaries in Montreal, and not enough players that are versatile enough to play a strong system. This is why the team has underachieved last season, and why it will likely underachieve again this season.

But all is not lost! Higgins, Hossa, Komisarek, Ryder, Ward, Eneqvist, Lapierre, and a few others that the Habs have drafted are system players first and foremost. They may not all make the team, but the emphasis placed on versatility, hockey sense, and work ethic at the draft the past couple of years is beginning to shine through. These players are trickling into the lineup and hopefully this team will turn into one that will overachieve with its strong system, versatility, and collective work ethic.

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09-24-2003, 03:06 PM
  #31
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I don't get it.

Gainey culls two of the players who caused the biggest grief on the team last year, Czerk and McKay, and leaves the team with spots for the youngsters, which everyone and their dog has been clamouring for on this list for YEARS, and now people complain when he doesn't do anything?

He's doing *exactly* what most Hab fans have wanted the team to do for ages - give the kids a legitimate shot. There are going to be at least two or three spots for rookies to fill. Would you like him to trade away our younger assets for average Joe's so we look like we have a more NHL-calibre lineup?

Or perhaps you think we can trade Breezy, Juneau, or some of the other elder statesmen for some useful pieces. Get a grip, not a chance. Their trade value is something less than a bag of pucks at the moment.

This team is in transition, and it's finally being managed as a team in transition, instead of one that gropes desperately for the playoffs to appease fans who have no sense of the game.

Follow up that point with the fact that his hands are tied - as are most GM's - because of the impending CBA and what it will do to the economics of the game, and it's easy to see why he's standing pat.

Would you like an upgrade in goal? Theo and Garon aren't enough?

How about defensively? Markov, Souray, Rivet, Breezy and Quintal are all serviceable defenders to a varying degree. If you use them correctly, they will cause minimal damage. (The problem with Breezy is that he's been used as a #1 when he's nothing more than a #4.) Add to the mix some exciting youth like Komi and Hainsey, and you have the makings of a good, not great, defence. At this stage in the team's development, these players are almost ideal - particularly until the youth mature into the players we're hoping they become.

What about the forwards? You can whine all you like about our lack of offence, but with Saku, Zedder, Bulis and even Audette and Sundstrom, we have a serviceably elder group who can play effectively at this level. After that, we have some parts to fill spaces until our (at let's not mince words) bountiful youth starts coming into their own. Do you really want to trade away valuable assets for a forward or two who will only take the place of the kids that everyone seems to be so excited to see in the linup in the next couple of years?

You can't have it both ways! You can't want the kids to get huge ice time to learn the game and improve their skills and also want Gainey to trade for vets who can take those places immediately.

I suggest, Hab fans, that you sit back and let Gainey develop the YOUTH that you so greatly desired. Savard has done an immaculate job stocking this team with prospects, and since they're the future, and we have no other real assets to trade for serviceable players, we might as well enjoy their development.

It's so frustrating to see people whining about the team's lack of progress after whining for so long that they weren't letting the kids out to play. No wonder NHL fans around the world hate Hab fans.

This is not the club of the 70's. This is not a dynasty. This is a club in transition and in a rebuilding phase - and doing one hell of a job, if you stop to take a good look. We have the potential in our system to really make a run in a couple of years, if people are PATIENT and don't get on management's butt to make irresponsible moves.

As far as I'm concerned, heading into this season, I'm really pleased with the way things are going. Actually, I'd be even more pleased if Gainey gave walking papers to a few more vets and gave room to about five kids - as I think we have the room for them without much of a downgrade in talent in the short-term.

And as for watching them lose in the preseason? *shrugs* Who cares. Means precisely zip. They're learning a new system and learning new linemates. All I want to see is progress game to game, and from what I hear that's *exactly* what's happening.

So, why don't we all just sit back and enjoy the trials and tribulations this team is going to go through. We can smile when they succeed, frown when they fail, but mostly take heart as we watch the kids - our future - develop into potential stars.

A concerned fan.

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Old
09-24-2003, 03:11 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strummerman
You again the fitness freak- did I say the players are not to blame? I have a lot of problems with a lot of players but besides that- last season it ended listlessly and this season is starting same way- besides the obvious lack of talent this team is listless and dull, the coach is not even bringing the best out of players fighting for a job in training camp- time to worry- sometimes a coach is just not the right fit for a team- Believe me Therrien was a total turn-off for me, but who knows what motivates hockey players maybe morons like Therrien are more accepted by high school graduates?
Fitness freak? :p Give it a rest. Talk to some players. See for yourself. Heck, you can do a search on the internet. Until you do that, let's leave that little discussion alone since it's becoming annoying, okay?

I should have mentioned my little rant was not directed solely at you, mostly at everyone who endlessly bashed Therrien last season and will likely jump on the "Fire Julien!" bandwagon as well.

I would say don't bother jumping on any little bandwagons. You have no idea what Julien's coaching style is off the ice and what he does to try and motivate his players, so why speculate or pretend to?

From my perspective, this is a team that is full of non-system players, so to expect anything but an underachieving bunch that has breakdowns defensively will result in disappointment. To blame Julien for this is absurd.

Lastly, I would also say that to expect Julien to be a 'motivator' would also result in disappointment. He doesn't strike me as a very motivating type of coach. These are professionals. I personally would not like some drill sargeant trying to motivate me at work; I would be motivated by a professional who has experience and knows what he's doing. Julien strikes me as a system coach who has stressed the importance of communication. This is a good thing, particularly with younguns coming up.

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Old
09-24-2003, 03:14 PM
  #33
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I agree Guy,well said, somehow I think we're better off waiting for Higgins to carry the Cup than we would be with the Turgeon's of the league.

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09-24-2003, 03:18 PM
  #34
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Mike, I think when Julien got here, he not only found the absence of any workable system, he found selfish players who couldn't or wouldn't do the fundamentals, like keeping shifts to a short duration. What I want to see is what will happen to the same guys this year if they play their own game.

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09-24-2003, 03:18 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
This is becoming reminiscent of 99% of the board blaming Therrien for the team's problems. Everyone was convinced it was Therrien.

Guess what? It wasn't. When are people going to learn that the coach isn't always to blame?

Take a look at the players. That little Yannic Perreault that many of you claim is a legit second line center... yes, that same player that put up statistics that may lead one to believe he is in fact a good producer. He is not a system player. (By system player, I mean one who is able to play within a system; capable of competing in all aspects of the game that is expected of one's position.)

See that fellow named Donald Audette? He too puts up impressive numbers. He is not a system player either.

Dackell and Juneau are two other players that receive a lot of praise. They were a solid duo two years ago, but both were a step (or three in Juneau's case) behind last season. They were not good system players and were subpar defensively last season.

Brisebois, Czerkawski, Petrov, Ribeiro, Kilger were not system players last season either.

See a pattern? That is 9 players that were subpar in terms of building a system last season. That's a significant chunk of the lineup there. What kind of system can you play when that significant amount of players don't have the capabilities to fulfill the task you are asking of them?

Now, Julien was hired past the mid point of last season. You say they didn't perform well under him, hmm? He did not implement his system as it was drastically different from Therrien's (and because the players had proven to be incapable of playing one system, so why throw another at them mid season?).

There are very few players that make a system work. Let's call them the 'system-makers'. The quantity and quality of 'system-makers' will often predicate how well a team gels and whether they overachieve or underachieve. In short, they make a system work based on strong intangibles and attention to detail.

Based on the play I saw last season, the only 'system makers' I saw were Sundstrom, Bulis, and Koivu. These are leaders on the ice that pay attention to detail first and foremost. They're coachable and stick to the system and the task at hand before doing any individual plays. Now if we take a look at a lineup like Ottawa's or NJ's, we see 90% of the team are system players. We see a significant amount (roughly 8-10) that are system makers, and it rubs off on the rest.

There are too many mercenaries in Montreal, and not enough players that are versatile enough to play a strong system. This is why the team has underachieved last season, and why it will likely underachieve again this season.

But all is not lost! Higgins, Hossa, Komisarek, Ryder, Ward, Eneqvist, Lapierre, and a few others that the Habs have drafted are system players first and foremost. They may not all make the team, but the emphasis placed on versatility, hockey sense, and work ethic at the draft the past couple of years is beginning to shine through. These players are trickling into the lineup and hopefully this team will turn into one that will overachieve with its strong system, versatility, and collective work ethic.
great read Mike8...I agree with everything that you said. When everything is said and done we won't see how good CJs system or any coachs system at this point for that matter would work for the Habs as they dont have enough system makers or system players. Maybe in 3-4 years once some of the versatile players that we drafted are contributing and learning the system will we find out....

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09-24-2003, 03:22 PM
  #36
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Strap yourself in and be prepared......and patient. This team hasn't had a system in place for years so it will take time. We will take our lumps but with the infusion of young blood and guys who want to play,we will get better. Rome wasn't built in a week. Question is,"Can Habs fans and the media be patient?"

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09-24-2003, 03:35 PM
  #37
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Another thing to consider is who better to learn a new system than young talented players. You wont be teaching a Juneau or a Dackell to play a completely new system and have them be as effective. Bring in Higgins, Perez and Ryder and they may adapt much better to CJs system. SO...bring in as many young guns as possible...let them learn a system and see if they can show improvement throughout the season. Jacque Martin did it with an Ottawa team that was also a horrid team at the time and they also had alot of young talent. They started pretty poorly under Jacque but the improvements were visible.

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09-24-2003, 03:52 PM
  #38
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Jacque Martin doesnt strike me as a great motivator...seems very quiet behind the bench...I guess the Sens wont win anything as they are not being motivated properly...

Motivation only works for a few years and then the team won't listen anymore as they heard it all before. Look at Pat Burns and Iron Mike, they last for about 2 years where the team overachieves and then the team is left with a poor system and the motivation is gone which results in poor team performance and the coaches get kicked out.

I take a good system that you can build a young team around over a coach with no system but big speeches anyday.

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09-24-2003, 03:56 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnuklZ
great read Mike8...I agree with everything that you said. When everything is said and done we won't see how good CJs system or any coachs system at this point for that matter would work for the Habs as they dont have enough system makers or system players. Maybe in 3-4 years once some of the versatile players that we drafted are contributing and learning the system will we find out....
Exactly. And it's unfortunate, because my guess is that Therrien was not a terribly bad coach. And that Julien is a quality coach. But Therrien did not get a fair shake, and Julien likely will not either. It's definitely hard to tell how good they are though, for the reasons pointed out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by strummerman
I never stated in my post Julien should be fired- I dont know what he does to motivate players- all I see are the results on the ice- I dont like what I saw last year- and I dont like what Im seeing this year so far- Obviously it is a little early but why so little offence why so little firebrand hockey in an exhibition game??? Frankly though a coach should be a motivator- hockey is sometimes a wargame and adrenalin brings out the best in players- if a coach cant fire up his players there may be a problem

Fred Shero had a system- however the flyers were one motivated team at the same time
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't think it's a prerequesite in becoming a quality coach. If we look at a Jacques Martin, Hitchcock, Lemaire or Scotty Bowman, I see them as the top four coaches the league has seen in the last decade or so. None of them strike me as terribly motivating, all strike me as stressing the importance of a system rather than motivation. Therrien is a motivator. Motivators generally wear off after 2-3 seasons a la Constantine, Burns (quality system-coach too mind you), etcetera. The only motivation I saw from Lemaire for example, is that I wouldn't want to get on his bad side. Same for Bowman.

From my personal experience, I've never played hockey at a high level, but I've always found having leaders on the team step up and get everyone fired up, then go out and play intensely gets my blood pumping much more than someone who -- while respected -- is still standing on the bench twiddling their thumbs.

A good tactical coach will get a team to overachieve. Overachieving brings team unity. Team unity brings collective leadership. And collective leadership gets vocal leaders giving (and then acting) on adrenaline-rushing speeches.

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09-24-2003, 04:02 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by strummerman
Yeah Pat Burns that loser that won the Cup last year? As for Martin a lot of people have been complaining he may be the problem- but I dont think so-anyways they had Roger Nielson to fire them up last year-dont know who it will be this year-yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnn just thinking of Jacques martin
and I bet that he will be let go in 2 years from NJ... :p

Check Pat Burns track record and you will see what I mean. I never said he is a bad coach or that he doesnt do well his first few years with a team. You actually strengthened my point...and when he gets fired in 2 years he will continue his trend

Heck even Therien would have had a good chance winning the cup with NJ last year

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09-24-2003, 04:07 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by strummerman
However one point Lemaire has always had an assistant coach that was a motivator(Larry Robinson, Mario tremblay, Chris Nylan), as well Martin had Roger Nielson last year-I think Hitchcock and Bowman are motivators- ever hear what Shutt and a few others say how Bowman drove them up a wall but they played better because of it-

I wasnt talking about solely adrenaline rushing speeches but motivation does mean getting players prepared knowing what their assignments are-talking about how good the opposing team and players are- and getting them ready psychologically- I had a lot of problems with Mario tremblay as a coach but he did motivate his players no question about that
We are currently not going to win anything with a coach that motivates (not even Bowman would win with this team)...so might as well get a coach that can teach our young players a system that they can apply and learn how to beat another team by playin the system. Motivating a team has only short term benefits that are not long lasting.

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09-24-2003, 04:09 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by strummerman
Well if julien wins the Cup this year and the team finishes dead last next year- I still think its worth more than the last 5 years of ineptitude
cool...I agree

BUT there is one significant difference between where NJ is and where we are, wouldnt you agree?

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09-24-2003, 04:10 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by strummerman
However one point Lemaire has always had an assistant coach that was a motivator(Larry Robinson, Mario tremblay, Chris Nylan), as well Martin had Roger Nielson last year-I think Hitchcock and Bowman are motivators- ever hear what Shutt and a few others say how Bowman drove them up a wall but they played better because of it-

I wasnt talking about solely adrenaline rushing speeches but motivation does mean getting players prepared knowing what their assignments are-talking about how good the opposing team and players are- and getting them ready psychologically- I had a lot of problems with Mario tremblay as a coach but he did motivate his players no question about that
Ah, I see your point now. And I agree. But to be honest, Julien does strike me as that type of motivator. The type that gets players very well prepared, communicates well, etcetera. I'm fine with him as coach and was happy to see him hired as I've seen the good work he's done in Hull (QMJHL) up close.

My point in this thread is simply not to expect too much from the current Habs team. Mostly because the players are not versatile for a sound system being implemented. I'm hoping I don't see too many "fire Julien!" posts when the going gets rough...

I will be interested in seeing how this team does under Julien's guidance when the Hossas, Higgins, Komisareks, Hainseys and Markovs are done growing, and the old, one dimensional, sad group this current bunch consists of are all gone.

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09-24-2003, 04:14 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Mike8
Ah, I see your point now. And I agree. But to be honest, Julien does strike me as that type of motivator. The type that gets players very well prepared, communicates well, etcetera. I'm fine with him as coach and was happy to see him hired as I've seen the good work he's done in Hull (QMJHL) up close.

My point in this thread is simply not to expect too much from the current Habs team. Mostly because the players are not versatile for a sound system being implemented. I'm hoping I don't see too many "fire Julien!" posts when the going gets rough...

I will be interested in seeing how this team does under Julien's guidance when the Hossas, Higgins, Komisareks, Hainseys and Markovs are done growing, and the old, one dimensional, sad group this current bunch consists of are all gone.
I fear that CJ won't be around when those players reach that level. And the new coach that ends up coaching those players will reap the credit for being a great coach. Timing is everything. To me its important to see young players develop in a system and have the team improve throughout the season. MTL being a much worse team in the 2nd half last year was an indicator that they were low on motivation playing with no system :mad:

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09-24-2003, 04:58 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
It takes two to trade, and Gainey is equally at fault.

Ummm.. how was that a bad trade for Dallas? He was working for them at the time... It was an excellent trade for him

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09-24-2003, 05:27 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strummerman
Alright only thing I know is that Hamilton seemed to be an offensive team last year where is that system that Julien was using there?
where did the offense go?

CJ can only teach them how to keep the chances against low and how to create opportunities...scoring the players have to do themselves. What I am saying is if MTL had 15 scoring chances vs TO and only score 1 goal its hardly CJs system but its the player that are not converting on their chances. Outshoting and outchancing every pre-season game so far is a good sign. Us not being to win those games and hardly scoring is not :mad:

Trust me, I think you will be happy with the Habs progress as the season goes on and I think thats all we can expect from this team/coach. Agreed?

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09-24-2003, 06:02 PM
  #47
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This has been an interesting thread and I enjoyed reading the comments. However, I am not as displeased with what I have seen so far in the preseason games (at least in the first two) as some of you do. I think there are more legitimate candidates for places on the roster than there have been in quite awhile. Among those who didn't appear in the early 2002-03 games are Souray, Komisarek, Sundstrom, Hossa, Ward, Ryder, Dwyer, Beauchemin, and Garon. Nor did we see Higgins, Perezhogin, Plekanec, Dagenais, and Ferland. Furthermore, Hainsey and Bouillon were around for only part of the season. It's quite a task for Julien to sort it all out, like a conductor trying to upgrade a provincial orchestra into l'Orchestre symphonique de Montréal.

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09-24-2003, 06:50 PM
  #48
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This tread is going on the coach's work and influence. On a level of minus 40 to plus 100 on the team spirit and playing a system, habs were -40 last year when Therrien was fired. Julien herited of a -40 team and the team was still made of the same individuals for the rest of the season. This team is in a transition mode. Now with Czerk and McKay gone, bad system players will get rare and if they don't play the system, they wiil bet isolated. There are still room for improvement but it's impossible to trade all the players Gainey wants to get rid.

The habs are in transition, they are -20 on my level. They will be +10 maybe in march if everything goes well. In 3-4 years they might be +90 when a system will be implanted. Julien is a good system teacher coach. He is the type of coach needed for this moment. It's too early to bring the next step of coach. Habs will make a try for the cup in 3 years and the coach will be Carbonneau. When the system will established and motivation/authority will be needed.

Tremblay was an hard motivator. That was a different time, a different team. The team at that time was almost good enough to make it to the Cup. But was far to make it, when 2 of the best wingers were Savage and Ruzinsky. A mistake to beleive in these soft players.

Vigneault was the opposite of Tremblay. Quiet, patient and strategy-oriented. No results, the team got worse. The slump that Tremblay started went worse.

Therrien got something from those heartless soft players. They made it to a playoffs spot. But the team was builted on soft players. No character, no great skills, no size, it wasn't a team for a coach “à la Therrien”. For no type of coach actually.

Julien is the transition coach. He will be the teacher, wich is a good timing, Habs will have a lot of young players in the next 2-3 years. If Julien is fired, Jarvis comes. After Jarvis, it will be Carbonneau. The perfect coach to get the maximum of his players. But Carbonneau needs a team first. This team is far from being ready.

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09-24-2003, 08:50 PM
  #49
nilan1
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Well from what I saw the team is working much harder and out chancing the opponent. the team has alot more husle and Theo was screened on the second shot and on the first Markov cauffed it up. This team is playing much better then last yr. Hab fanbs cannot complain about having old players on the team and demand that the young guys get a chance and Montreal has cleared some spots to make room and it will take time for them to learn this team is rebuilding get used to it. What is it you expect BG to do? The waiver draft will be over and then Montreal will have the roster set for the start of the season when that is done and the team or some of the players that do not perform then something will be done. Although I would fined it hard for BG to do anything because all the experts on this board keep claiming all our players suck but then complain when our GM cant trade them for some superstar off another team. This team will compete for one of the last few playofff spots we will not contend inless Gillette spends more money and with CBA coming up it is pointless Montreal will compete in 3yrs for the cup until then it will be tough.

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09-24-2003, 09:38 PM
  #50
Kirk Muller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HABitude
Vigneault was the opposite of Tremblay. Quiet, patient and strategy-oriented. No results, the team got worse. The slump that Tremblay started went worse.

Personally I liked Vigneault, the fact that his system and strategy nearly got an AHL roster into the playoffs were enough for me to have some confidence in the guy as a teacher and motivator. I am actually surprised he hasn't resurfaced as head coach in this league yet.

I think there is also a major difference between the current times and past regimes. While Tremblay, Vigneault, and Therrien coached, this team had ZERO direction, no identity and in complete chaos. I think we finally can visually see the direction of what this team is wanting to do, something I never felt for the previous 7 or 8 years. Tremblay dealt with the greatness that was Reggie Houle, Vigneault dealt with two years of leading the league in injuries, and Therrien dealt with a mismatch of castoffs so Montreal could stockpile prospects. I actually kinda see Therrien as the transition coach. From a lack of youth to an influx, while Julien will be the developmental coach. Whether he becomes a Jacques Martin esque coach will depend on winning. (ie a coach who grows with his team)

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