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Record for goals/points by a defenseman, pre-Orr?

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03-26-2013, 10:46 AM
  #1
SealsFan
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Record for goals/points by a defenseman, pre-Orr?

I was wondering what the progression of the record for most goals and most points in a season by a defenseman was prior to Bobby Orr. I realize this is probably a record that's difficult to quantify because of the kind of players who saw duty on defense and wing (Red Kelly, Doug Mohns, Howie Young, etc.), i.e. there's no way to tell how many of their goals came from the backline.

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03-26-2013, 11:00 AM
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eddytheeagle20
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not sure about goals or points but im pretty sure assist record belonged to harvey

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03-26-2013, 11:02 AM
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blogofmike
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Doug Mohns 25 goals and 60 points
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

Pat Stapleton 50 Assists
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...der_by=assists

Hockey ref distinguishes by position for seasons now. For instance, searching by centre excludes Messier's seasons as an LW.

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03-26-2013, 11:08 AM
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Passchendaele
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddytheeagle20 View Post
not sure about goals or points but im pretty sure assist record belonged to harvey
Nope, it belonged to Pierre Pilote and Bill Gadsby (46)

Most goals was Red Kelly (19) with the 1952-53 Wings.

Most points is Pilote (59) too.

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03-26-2013, 11:10 AM
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Passchendaele
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Doug Mohns 25 goals and 60 points
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

Pat Stapleton 50 Assists
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...der_by=assists

Hockey ref distinguishes by position for seasons now. For instance, searching by centre excludes Messier's seasons as an LW.
I'm pretty sure Mohns played forward with the Blackhawks.

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03-26-2013, 11:12 AM
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eddytheeagle20
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Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
Nope, it belonged to Pierre Pilote and Bill Gadsby (46)

Most goals was Red Kelly (19) with the 1952-53 Wings.

Most points is Pilote (59) too.

thanks for the correction harvey was close though his carrer high was 44

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03-26-2013, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I'm pretty sure Mohns played forward with the Blackhawks.
I'm not convinced of the accuracy of either hockeyreference.com or hockeydb.com. Sometimes they don't jive with each other. And I think sometimes they just list the player's primary position. It's possible that in any of those seasons where Mohns, Kelly, etc. are listed as only "D" that they also played some forward. That's why I think the records for d-men are nebulous because no one was stat-crazy enough back then to track how many goals a player had at different positions.

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03-26-2013, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SealsFan View Post
I'm not convinced of the accuracy of either hockeyreference.com or hockeydb.com. Sometimes they don't jive with each other. And I think sometimes they just list the player's primary position. It's possible that in any of those seasons where Mohns, Kelly, etc. are listed as only "D" that they also played some forward. That's why I think the records for d-men are nebulous because no one was stat-crazy enough back then to track how many goals a player had at different positions.
Mohns definitely played left wing next to Mikita for some time, and considering that 25 goals and 60 assists are his career highs (at either LW or D), I think it's highly unlikely he played much if any D that year.

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03-26-2013, 06:48 PM
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Keep in mind that until those Boston teams, no forward scored 100 points in a season either. They completely changed the way offense fit into a team dynamic.

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03-26-2013, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Keep in mind that until those Boston teams, no forward scored 100 points in a season either. They completely changed the way offense fit into a team dynamic.
You mean: ORR completely changed the way offense fit into a team dynamic.

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03-26-2013, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SealsFan View Post
That's why I think the records for d-men are nebulous because no one was stat-crazy enough back then to track how many goals a player had at different positions.
I believe its Mohns, Harvey & Gadsby. One of my favourites All Time. As you'll recall SF, old Bill there had a set of ears on him that one could easily imagine as making him quite capable of flight.

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03-26-2013, 10:37 PM
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I always was under the impression that Flash Hollet was the only 20 goal defenseman in NHL history until Orr. However, in 1959-'60 Mohns got 20 goals and 45 points. That year he played defense for the simple reason that he finished 8th in Norris voting. I am not sure how often Mohns got switched around that season, but either way you have to credit him with a 20 goal season as a defenseman.

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03-29-2013, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I always was under the impression that Flash Hollet was the only 20 goal defenseman in NHL history until Orr. However, in 1959-'60 Mohns got 20 goals and 45 points. That year he played defense for the simple reason that he finished 8th in Norris voting. I am not sure how often Mohns got switched around that season, but either way you have to credit him with a 20 goal season as a defenseman.


"Doug surfaced as one of the best players on the team and certainly one of the most versatile players in the league. His early training during his youth was beginning to show up and because he could skate backwards exceptionally well he was able to adjust to playing defense when needed. ( A position he had never played before.)

Few players in the league could play as well at both positions. This made him a valuable asset to his team. He was not only used as a point man on the power play but he was also called upon when the team was short handed . He became a core member who helped to make up the nucleus of his team. Doug was paired with Ferny Flaman on defense during the middle to late 50ís and they became one of the most respected pairings in the league because of their combined strength, speed and savy."Diesel Doug,"as he was called, was arguably the fastest skater with the hardest shot and was the second defenseman in the league to ever score 20 goals in a season. (Tying the record with Flash Hollet, and later breaking Holletís record for points in a playoffs in a series with The New York Rangers.)"
(DougMohns.com)

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03-29-2013, 08:15 PM
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Flash Hollett - He scored 20, 19, and 19 goals in the 1940s.

Red Kelly scored 19 in the 1950s, and Harry Cameron scored 18 a couple times in the 1920s.

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