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Battle of the best right wingers ever!!

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Old
04-15-2005, 02:26 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rather Gingerly 1
Lanny was one of the best goal scorers of his era, 68 one year. Bill Cook I never seen play - can't count him
True but Cook has 3 goal scoring crowns and two Art Ross. He was one of the best players of his era. The same can't be said for Lanny, who was always a very good player but not a great one.

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04-15-2005, 02:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Mothra
One year wonder???? I think you are wrong.....66 was a career year for sure....and his best after that was only 33 (missing about 15 games) but we are talking about a 500 goal guy who scored 40 or more 3 other times (besides his big year with the Flames)....it should also be noted that he had 34 the year before in only 55 games

I think you are confusing "one year wonder" with "career year"
Yeah that's what I meant my bad. Oh and I'm not taking anything away from the guy he was a very consistent and good player but not great and never in the top 10 in the league.

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04-15-2005, 03:19 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Actually Lanny was just a one year wonder when he scored 66 he couldnt get more then 33 after that.
There's no way a 500 goal scorer can be considered a one-year wonder.

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04-15-2005, 03:20 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by #66
True but Cook has 3 goal scoring crowns and two Art Ross. He was one of the best players of his era. The same can't be said for Lanny, who was always a very good player but not a great one.
It's not fair to compare players we have never seen play to players we have

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04-15-2005, 03:44 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Rather Gingerly 1
There's no way a 500 goal scorer can be considered a one-year wonder.
Well I meant he had a career year but Andreychuk has about 700 goals yet I dont see anyone saying that he was a great goal scorer.

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04-15-2005, 04:25 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
Then as we all know a combination of things (drugs, gambling, loss of a love for the game) really brought his career down a notch in the 2000's.
Drugs?

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04-15-2005, 07:23 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Well I meant he had a career year but Andreychuk has about 700 goals yet I dont see anyone saying that he was a great goal scorer.
Andreychuk has played until he was 42.

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04-15-2005, 10:04 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rather Gingerly 1
Andreychuk has played until he was 42.
Any guy born on the 60's (63 for DA) had a huge advantage as their peak years were in the allstar game/ cartoon scoring era of the 80's. Do you really think Ciccarelli is a 600 goal scorer and the Rocket 544 and Guy 560?

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04-15-2005, 10:38 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep
RW from my HHOF Monitor ...

POS -- Seasons -- Adj PTS -- PO PTS -- ASG -- 1 ALL STAR -- 2 ALL STAR -- Inducted? -- HHOF Monitor -- Player Name
================================================== ===========
R -- 26 -- 2113,22 -- 160,00 -- 23 -- 12 -- 9 -- Y -- 5771,61 -- Howe Gordie
R -- 18 -- 1177,95 -- 126,00 -- 13 -- 08 -- 6 -- Y -- 3339,98 -- Richard Maurice
R -- 14 -- 1297,29 -- 154,00 -- 09 -- 06 -- 1 -- - -- 3157,64 -- Jagr Jaromir
R -- 17 -- 1082,07 -- 134,00 -- 07 -- 06 -- 0 -- Y -- 2980,04 -- Lafleur Guy
R -- 10 -- 0863,16 -- 160,00 -- 08 -- 05 -- 3 -- Y -- 2286,58 -- Bossy Mike
R -- 19 -- 1313,46 -- 187,00 -- 08 -- 03 -- 0 -- - -- 2113,73 -- Hull Brett
R -- 16 -- 0959,87 -- 118,00 -- 11 -- 01 -- 2 -- Y -- 1952,93 -- Geoffrion Bernie
R -- 17 -- 1109,16 -- 233,00 -- 09 -- 02 -- 3 -- Y -- 1937,58 -- Kurri Jari
R -- 17 -- 1066,88 -- 035,00 -- 08 -- 02 -- 2 -- Y -- 1828,44 -- Bathgate Andy
R -- 14 -- 0693,37 -- 110,00 -- 07 -- 02 -- 1 -- Y -- 1601,68 -- Moore Dickie
R -- 12 -- 0953,56 -- 033,00 -- 09 -- 02 -- 2 -- - -- 1594,78 -- Selanne Teemu
R -- 16 -- 0803,66 -- 127,00 -- 06 -- 00 -- 4 -- Y -- 1493,83 -- Cournoyer Yvan
R -- 11 -- 0801,48 -- 024,00 -- 00 -- 03 -- 1 -- Y -- 1479,74 -- Cook Bill
R -- 12 -- 0730,81 -- 035,00 -- 00 -- 03 -- 2 -- Y -- 1440,41 -- Conacher Charlie
R -- 15 -- 0645,48 -- 063,00 -- 10 -- 01 -- 0 -- 0 -- 1245,74 -- Provost Claude
R -- 12 -- 0779,10 -- 070,00 -- 06 -- 01 -- 2 -- - -- 1174,55 -- Bure Pavel
R -- 20 -- 0813,60 -- 030,00 -- 00 -- 03 -- 3 -- Y -- 1121,80 -- Clapper Dit
R -- 17 -- 0864,45 -- 106,00 -- 03 -- 01 -- 0 -- Y -- 1083,23 -- Mullen Joe
R -- 16 -- 1130,50 -- 097,00 -- 07 -- 00 -- 1 -- - -- 1077,25 -- Recchi Mark
R -- 15 -- 0706,50 -- 084,00 -- 03 -- 00 -- 1 -- 0 -- 1047,25 -- Rousseau Bobby
R -- 09 -- 0528,62 -- 024,00 -- 03 -- 01 -- 1 -- - -- 1038,31 -- Iginla Jarome
R -- 11 -- 0538,42 -- 012,00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 0 -- Y -- 1011,21 -- Dye Babe

One thing to note about Bill Cook is that he didn't play in the NHL until he was 30. He missed 4 years of hockey serving during WWI. He eventually turned pro and played 4 years in the WCHL/WHL. He won 2 scoring titles, leading in goals twice and assists once, and was a 3 time all-star. Add in that the NHL didn't name all-star teams for his first 4 years, and that he was the Rangers captain for his entire 11 year NHL career, and you start to get the picture of why Frank Boucher thought he was better than Richard and Howe.

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04-15-2005, 11:52 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Humor aside, one would think that the man named by Mario Lemieux, Wayne Gretzky and Raymond Bourque as the best natural goal scorer ever is worthy of a higher ranking. As in higher than Guy Lafleur.

After all, those guys know a bit more about that than any of us, no?

(Of course, all of this is subjective, harmless opinion on a messageboard.)
A subjective, harmless opinion indeed but one this poster has to support. Stats may not always tell the story, but here's one that gives support to the opinions of the trio you named: Bossy's 85 goals and 160 points in 129 playoffs games is just a scary stat.

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04-16-2005, 01:34 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by anon
A subjective, harmless opinion indeed but one this poster has to support. Stats may not always tell the story, but here's one that gives support to the opinions of the trio you named: Bossy's 85 goals and 160 points in 129 playoffs games is just a scary stat.
Also it should be noted that when Bossy played in the playoffs he played a lot more games in his prime then Lafleur did. Here are both men's 6 best playoffs.

Guy Lafleur:
11 GP 12 G 7 A 19 P
13 GP 7 G 10 A 17 P
14 GP 9 G 17 A 26 P
15 GP 10 G 11 A 21 P
16 GP 10 G 13 A 23 P
3 GP 3 G 1 A 4 P

Total: 72 GP 51 G 59 A 110 P


Mike Bossy

16 GP 10 G 13 A 23 P
18 GP 17 G 18 A 35 P
19 GP 17 G 10 A 27 P
19 GP 17 G 9 A 26 P
21 GP 8 G 10 A 18 P
10 GP 5 G 6 A 11 P

Total:103 GP 74 G 66 A 140 P

Now let's see their goals, assists and points per game averages.

Guy Lafleur: 0.71, 0.83, 1.54
Mike Bossy: 0.72, 0.64, 1.36

Now here's what both men would've had if they had played in the same number of games in their primes.

Guy Lafleur: 103 GP 73 Goals, 84 assists, 157 Points
Mike Bossy: 103 GP 74 Goals, 66 assists, 140 points

Still pretty close but Lafleur actually has the lead now doesnt he? They're pretty much the same in goal scoring except Lafleur is much better in playmaking. No knock on Bossy but he was no Guy Lafleur.

And you know if the following things hadn't taken place their stats wouldnt be even close.

1- Not take care of himself, smoke 2 packs a day and go out drinking every night.
2- Accident which nearly killed him and took a toll on him both phisically and mentally.
3- A defensive minded coach in Lemaire who was rarely playing him.
4- Lack of great players around him... as in no Bryan Trottier making plays.
5- Pressure to perform at the same level and boy what a high level it was and if you dont win the cup then you're nothing.
6- Being burned out after 4 cups in a row.

If those things hadn't happened then Guy would've been much better statisticaly and wouldnt have dropped all of a sudden from a 130 point man to a 70 point one. So all in all Bossy was great but he was no Guy Lafleur.

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Old
04-16-2005, 02:47 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Any guy born on the 60's (63 for DA) had a huge advantage as their peak years were in the allstar game/ cartoon scoring era of the 80's. Do you really think Ciccarelli is a 600 goal scorer and the Rocket 544 and Guy 560?
I agree...another reason why it is wrong to compare stats or eras.

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04-16-2005, 03:08 PM
  #63
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Yes, regular stats are quite misleading. Let's look at the adjusted-for-era stats:

Total Goals
1) Maurice Richard, 655
2) Dino Ciccarelli, 563
3) Guy LaFleur, 500

Goals Per Game
1) Maurice Richard, 0.52
2) Dino Ciccarelli, 0.44
3) Guy LaFleur, 0.43

Peak Goals (average of five best seasons)
1) Maurice Richard, 51.8
2) Guy LaFleur, 50.1
3) Dino Ciccarelli, 40.6

Adjusted for era, Rocket Richard is definitely the best goal-scorer of the three. Ciccarelli had a long, consistent career, but LaFleur in his prime was almost unstoppable.

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04-16-2005, 03:27 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Any guy born on the 60's (63 for DA) had a huge advantage as their peak years were in the allstar game/ cartoon scoring era of the 80's. Do you really think Ciccarelli is a 600 goal scorer and the Rocket 544 and Guy 560?
Ummm, yes, Cicarelli is a 600 goal scorer, despite what guttersnipe detractor/fans try to insinuate. You are what you are, what your records say you are. Transposing players into different eras or penalizing them for playing in one era or another, or having a longer career is "cartoonish". And who the heck is anyone to characterize the 80s as "cartoon scoring"? It was high scoring decade. Period.

Guess the same critics are trying today to devalue Brodeur, Hasek, etc. and their low GAA avg today for playing in a "boring cartoonish low-scoring era"?

Damn straight Ciccarelli is a 600 goal scorer. Did you see the punishment he took (as a little guy no less) to score many of those goals? Yep, just 600 goals scored with mirrors, a fluke.

Would anyone put him in the same category or the Rocket or Lafleur? Of course, not. But to flippantly pass off any achievement is weak. Unfortunately, throught the bastardization of staaaatistics and hyperbole (e.g., "allstar game scoring"), people try to do so here regularly.


Last edited by Trottier: 04-16-2005 at 03:37 PM.
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Old
04-17-2005, 01:08 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
If those things hadn't happened then Guy would've been much better statisticaly and wouldnt have dropped all of a sudden from a 130 point man to a 70 point one. So all in all Bossy was great but he was no Guy Lafleur.
All these comparisions are apples to apples, great players. To say Bossy was no Lafleur just comes off as homerism on your part.

If your going to do what-if's for LaFleur you have to do them for Bossy:

Did you ever consider what Bossy's numbers would have been if he were
double-shifted or was not required to play in a defensive system or played in what was a very weak Western Conference in an era where only one Western Conference team could even qualify to play for a cup? (Chicago)

Bossy also was seperated several times from Trottier playing with Brent Sutter and Pat Lafontaine, this even happened in the 83 semi-finals against Montreal when the Isles came home down 2-0. The Isles won the next four straight.

Bottom line Mike Bossy is the only player in NHL history to avg 57 goals a year for his entire career, he won four straight cups, nineteen playoff series in a row and he did it playing on a new team in hockey's most established conference.

I don't know if he is the best right wing in NHL history because it's a generational discussion but he is the greatest goal-scorer per game avg in league history and no player ever has recorded more consecutitve fifty goal seasons.

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04-17-2005, 01:14 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by NYIsles1
All these comparisions are apples to apples, great players. To say Bossy was no Lafleur just comes off as homerism on your part.

If your going to do what-if's for LaFleur you have to do them for Bossy:

Did you ever consider what Bossy's numbers would have been if he were
double-shifted or was not required to play in a defensive system or played in what was a very weak Western Conference in an era where only one Western Conference team could even qualify to play for a cup? (Chicago)

Bossy also was seperated several times from Trottier playing with Brent Sutter and Pat Lafontaine, this even happened in the 83 semi-finals against Montreal when the Isles came home down 2-0. The Isles won the next four straight.

Bottom line Mike Bossy is the only player in NHL history to avg 57 goals a year for his entire career, he won four straight cups, nineteen playoff series in a row and he did it playing on a new team in hockey's most established conference.

I don't know if he is the best right wing in NHL history because it's a generational discussion but he is the greatest goal-scorer per game avg in league history and no player ever has recorded more consecutitve fifty goal seasons.
Well when you say he played in a very weak conference then dont you think it also helped his numbers in the regular season when he played against bad teams more then Lafleur? Also Trottier may not have played with him every night but for the most part he did.. who did Lafleur have who was a great playmaker like Trottier? A one year wonder in Mahovlich or an average passer in Lemaire? Bottom line Lafleur could score just as good as Bossy in his prime and was more clutch in the playoffs and was the better playmaker so all in all Lafleur IMO was better then Bossy. But hey Bossy's like the 2nd best right winger of the last 35-40 years and that sais something.

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04-17-2005, 01:28 PM
  #67
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...but he is the greatest goal-scorer per game avg in league history
Actually, Lemieux still is, by about .07, but if Lemieux plays another season, Bossy will have the record.

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04-17-2005, 01:42 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by tom_servo
Actually, Lemieux still is, by about .07, but if Lemieux plays another season, Bossy will have the record.
Yeah but its not like its that impressive since what he only played like 9 or 10 seasons.


Last edited by KOVALEV10: 04-17-2005 at 02:02 PM.
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04-17-2005, 03:02 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Well when you say he played in a very weak conference then dont you think it also helped his numbers in the regular season when he played against bad teams more then Lafleur?
They both played in the same conference. What I wrote was what-if Bossy played on a Western Conference team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Bottom line Lafleur could score just as good as Bossy in his prime and was more clutch in the playoffs and was the better playmaker so all in all Lafleur IMO was better then Bossy. But hey Bossy's like the 2nd best right winger of the last 35-40 years and that sais something.
In Bossy's second year (Montreal's fourth cup) he scored 69 goals which is more than LaFleur ever scored in a single season. I cannot write Bossy is the best right wing of all-time because that is not fair to some other great players I never had the pleasure of watching but IMHO he is the best right wing I have ever seen in my time as a hockey fan. (I did not know Mario still had the gpg lead still)

He set the rookie goal scoring record that stood until Selanne broke it, he also was the first player in the modern era to tie Rocket Richard with 50 in 50 and he was a Conn Smythe winner and arguably could have been more than once. He was also part of a team that set the modern record of fifteen straight wins without overtime so he was a huge part of one of the greatest pressure teams of all time.

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04-17-2005, 03:27 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Rank the best right wingers ever and explain why.
1- Gordie Howe
2- Rocket Richard
3- Guy Lafleur
4- Mike Bossy
5- Jari Kurri
6- Jaromir Jagr

7- Bret Hull
8- Boom Boom Geoffrion
9- Pavel Bure
It's been a couple of time I come to HF and see this pattern that seems widely accepted, Jari Kurri ahead of Jagr?

As good a Kurri was, and really he was awesome.
This is ridiculous.
Jagr have 5 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 2 Pearson.
Kurri's got 1 lady bing!

Hardware isnt everything, but IMO people have some cold feeling about Jagr and is recent failure but he'll eventually get is due.
He's easily top-10/15 all-time material.

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04-17-2005, 03:31 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
1945: This one always confuses me. Richard scores 50 g in 50 games, sets the record for most goals in a season, and had 18 more goals than the runner-up! But, he wasn't even named MVP. Nowadays everyone talks about how amazing that season was. Why was the NHL not as impressed with Richard's season as we are today?


1955: Richard had a good year, but arguably Geoffrion was even better. Kennedy scored less points than Richard (not even in the top 10), but he probably got some votes for being such a terrific defensive player.

So the only year I think Richard was robbed was 1945. But, it seems odd that looking back people are so obsessed with the 50-goals-in-50-games season, but the NHL at the time didn't even name him MVP. I wonder why? Anybody know? 1955 was also debateable but I don't think Richard deserved MVP the other three years.
1945- It should be noted that Elmer Lach did win the scoring title that year and set a new record for most assists in a season. I don`t want to get in to the " a goal should be worth more than an assist " debate right now, but it`s fair to assume that Lach assisted on most if not all of Richard`s 50 goals. Which accomplishment was more impressive? Well the K&R Hockey Compendium has Lach`s `45 season statistically ranked as the 24th best assists season of all-time while Richard`s `45 season as the 45th best goal-scoring season ever. Not a definitive answer, but something to consider.

1955- This was pure sentiment. Ted Kennedy was the most popular athlete in Toronto and had announced that this would be his final season. His status as one of the most consistent two-way players in the game over his career coupled with his reputation as the best player to never win an award made him a MVP contender before the season even started (it`s another topic all together, but there have been other examples of this in NHL award voting.)
Interesting to note that while there are rare occurences of the MVP winner not making the 1st all-star team (i.e. Gretzky in `80, `89, Theodore in `02), Kennedy`s `55 season was the only time that the MVP winner didn`t make the 1st or 2nd team.

It`s hard for me to rank the best right-wingers of recent years because I have a hard time remembering what position each forward plays. Appartently the writers who vote on the all-star teams have a hard time remembering too.
For example in last years` all-star team voting Patrik Elias finished 3rd among left-wingers and 5th among centres- which is he?. Martin St. Louis was the 1st team right-winner but received two votes as the 1st team centre (he only took about one faceoff every 3 games). Markus Naslund received votes at all three forward positions!
It just shows that when talking about awards that a certain player has or hasn`t won, remember these awards are simply writers opinions. And those guys don`t always know what they`re talking about.

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04-17-2005, 04:58 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by NYIsles1
They both played in the same conference. What I wrote was what-if Bossy played on a Western Conference team?


In Bossy's second year (Montreal's fourth cup) he scored 69 goals which is more than LaFleur ever scored in a single season. I cannot write Bossy is the best right wing of all-time because that is not fair to some other great players I never had the pleasure of watching but IMHO he is the best right wing I have ever seen in my time as a hockey fan. (I did not know Mario still had the gpg lead still)

He set the rookie goal scoring record that stood until Selanne broke it, he also was the first player in the modern era to tie Rocket Richard with 50 in 50 and he was a Conn Smythe winner and arguably could have been more than once. He was also part of a team that set the modern record of fifteen straight wins without overtime so he was a huge part of one of the greatest pressure teams of all time.
Youre implying that Bossy was better than Lafleur; for someone like myself who was an avid follower during that era, I can honestly guarantee you that your view would have been shared by no one in Montreal or NY.

I'd hesitate to even give Bossy the nod on pure goal scoring, and its no contest on passing, skating, stickhandling, one on one, clutch play and shear domination. For 7-8 years Guy Lafleur was the best player in the world.

Bossy had no Harts, no Ross, etc. Its not even close and its not even about trophies. Its about this: Lafleur dominated every game he played for those years.

He also did not have the luxury of playing in no pressure NY Island instead of replacing Beliveau (Management wanted to give him #4); he played sporadically in his first 3 years (and much of it at centre) as opposed to Bossy going straight to the first line of an expansion team playing next to a leading centre.

I liked Bossy but his stats would have taken a beating had he played 6-8 more years. Had Lafleur stopped playing after Bouttetes check in 1980 how would Guy's per game averages rate?

ps. Agreed about Jagr. Cherry doesnt like him so he's valued slightly less than Eddie Shack.

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04-17-2005, 05:02 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Well when you say he played in a very weak conference then dont you think it also helped his numbers in the regular season when he played against bad teams more then Lafleur? Also Trottier may not have played with him every night but for the most part he did.. who did Lafleur have who was a great playmaker like Trottier? A one year wonder in Mahovlich or an average passer in Lemaire? Bottom line Lafleur could score just as good as Bossy in his prime and was more clutch in the playoffs and was the better playmaker so all in all Lafleur IMO was better then Bossy. But hey Bossy's like the 2nd best right winger of the last 35-40 years and that sais something.
I don't think anyone's denying that Lafleur is considered better than Bossy in terms of overall career. I think it's pretty clear Lafleur had a longer career and overall is considered better. For reasons that you stated, among others, Lafleur is probably on top.

But this notion that Lafleur was a better or as good a goalscorer is false. I know you love Lafleur, but you also know your stats, so look at Bossy's numbers. You can manipulate the stats any way you want, Bossy's are simply better. Bossy was a better goalscorer, plain an simple.

Bossy
Season
GP G
752 573

Playoffs
GP G
129 85

Lafleur
Career
GP G
1127 560

Playoffs
128 58

Bossy will always be remembered as one of the greatest goalscorers of any position. Lafleur isn't in that category.

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04-17-2005, 05:04 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Ummm, yes, Cicarelli is a 600 goal scorer, despite what guttersnipe detractor/fans try to insinuate. You are what you are, what your records say you are. Transposing players into different eras or penalizing them for playing in one era or another, or having a longer career is "cartoonish". And who the heck is anyone to characterize the 80s as "cartoon scoring"? It was high scoring decade. Period.

Guess the same critics are trying today to devalue Brodeur, Hasek, etc. and their low GAA avg today for playing in a "boring cartoonish low-scoring era"?

Damn straight Ciccarelli is a 600 goal scorer. Did you see the punishment he took (as a little guy no less) to score many of those goals? Yep, just 600 goals scored with mirrors, a fluke.

Would anyone put him in the same category or the Rocket or Lafleur? Of course, not. But to flippantly pass off any achievement is weak. Unfortunately, throught the bastardization of staaaatistics and hyperbole (e.g., "allstar game scoring"), people try to do so here regularly.
Easy buddy - nothing against the old pants dropper; just saying that Dino was good but lucky to play in the cartoon era of scoring like andreychuck.

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04-17-2005, 05:12 PM
  #75
Quiet Robert
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Easy buddy - nothing against the old pants dropper; just saying that Dino was good but lucky to play in the cartoon era of scoring like andreychuck.
I hate this argument. The era he played in doesn't take away from his skill. 600 goals in impressive no matter who does it.

It's like saying Bobby Orr sucked because he played in an expansion era. Hey Bobby Orr was lucky to play in an era with 6 new teams. Of course it plays somewhat of a role, but it doesn't take away from the skill and domiance of certain players.

Of course you can try to adjust stats and try and see what their numbers would look like in different eras, but the fact was Dino was a great scorer in his era. I don't think people will say because he has 600+ he's better than the Rocket, but at the same time, you can't take away his 600+ because of his era. It's like saying 'Hey Brodeur is lucky to play in the 90's that's the only reason he got all his shutouts.'

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