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Josh Gorges $3.9M/6 years Bad Contract or Good?

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04-16-2013, 11:33 AM
  #151
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To be fair to myself, I've been complaining about Gorges all year, heck even during the lockout when he couldn't keep his mouth shut.

Even after saying that, I'm glad he's on the team. He's a heck of a player with a giant heart. He just needs to be utilized to his strengths more and he'll get the mental side back and help the team win.

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04-16-2013, 11:36 AM
  #152
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Again, the timing that people used to bring up this or that player is not necessarily solely based on the effort of those past 2 games. But if you bring up some negativity towards a player in a season that we were doing so great.....you're seen as having an agenda and whining for nothing 'cause we are winning and such. So if you have a beef against a player, you wait till we lose. Personnally, I would hope we could bring how bad a player plays even in a 10-game winning streak....but doesn't seem like the way to do it. Would be more honest though. But if people would remember, even in wins, Gorges was NOT this year the player that he used to be. He had more average games this year that we remember him having it. Which I guess could be put in "just 1 average year in a sea of great ones". Okay, so be it. Yet, is he paid too much? Thought so when it happen, thought so when we were winning, thought so we he was playing good, thought so when he is playing badly. I mean, as good as you might be playing....does it always mean your worth your contract?

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04-16-2013, 11:38 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Again, the timing that people used to bring up this or that player is not necessarily solely based on the effort of those past 2 games. But if you bring up some negativity towards a player in a season that we were doing so great.....you're seen as having an agenda and whining for nothing 'cause we are winning and such. So if you have a beef against a player, you wait till we lose. Personnally, I would hope we could bring how bad a player plays even in a 10-game winning streak....but doesn't seem like the way to do it. Would be more honest though. But if people would remember, even in wins, Gorges was NOT this year the player that he used to be. He had more average games this year that we remember him having it. Which I guess could be put in "just 1 average year in a sea of great ones". Okay, so be it. Yet, is he paid too much? Thought so when it happen, thought so when we were winning, thought so we he was playing good, thought so when he is playing badly. I mean, as good as you might be playing....does it always mean your worth your contract?
6 years Whitesnake. 6... Years. This is the kind of contract you give to core players.

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04-16-2013, 11:40 AM
  #154
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No. Not even a chance.

He's not even a top-4 D in all of the teams.

Just in our division, Toronto (Gardiner, Franson, Phaneuf, Gunnarsson), Boston (Chara, Seidenberg, Boychuk, Hamilton) and Ottawa (Karlsson, Gonchar, Methot, Phillips) when healthy, would not even play him in their top-4.
Philly (Timonen, Coburn, Schenn, Meszaros) and NYR (McDonagh, Girardi, Del Zotto, Staal) neither.
Gardiner was a healthy scratch this past week. No coach in his right mind plays Gardiner ahead of Gorges if he is trying to win a game tonight. Same for Hamilton, he's struggling defensively and has also spent time in the press box. Gorges is better than Schenn(one dimensional guy who is only good at hitting), Meszaros and Del Zotto(PP specialist).

Your evaluation of him is obviously biased and you can't look at him objectively.

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04-16-2013, 11:45 AM
  #155
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Gardiner was a healthy scratch this past week. No coach in his right mind plays Gardiner ahead of Gorges if he is trying to win a game tonight. Same for Hamilton, he's struggling defensively and has also spent time in the press box. Gorges is better than Schenn(one dimensional guy who is only good at hitting), Meszaros and Del Zotto(PP specialist).

Your evaluation of him is obviously biased and you can't look at him objectively.
Del Zotto is as much of a PP specialist as Subban. Schenn is racking up huge minutes for Philly this year. Played more than 30 just yesterday. He's physical AND defensive, that's one dimension more than Gorges. Meszaros is a big body who's hard to play against while being capable at some extent offensively and gifted defensively. The O'Donnell - Meszaros pairing was extremely effective a couple of years ago even when given tough matchups in road rinks in the playoffs. We witnessed it first hand.

As for Gardiner and Hamilton, hey! Subban has been scratched the past two years! Did it mean he was a worst player than Gorges? I don't think so...

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04-16-2013, 11:52 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
6 years Whitesnake. 6... Years. This is the kind of contract you give to core players.
you don't consider him as part of your core? I mean at this point it really is a personal opinion because I see him as a core player without a doubt, even though he's having a meh season and a couple of horrible games

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04-16-2013, 12:00 PM
  #157
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you don't consider him as part of your core? I mean at this point it really is a personal opinion because I see him as a core player without a doubt, even though he's having a meh season and a couple of horrible games
Do you consider Grossman as part of Philly's core?
Do you consider Phillips as part of Ottawa's core?
Do you consider Scuderi as part of LA's core?
Do you consider MacDonald as part of Long Island's core?

If you do, well your definition of a team's core is definitely larger than mine.

Price, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Markov, Subban. That's what a core is to me. Gallagher is definitely not far away from becoming one, and Galchenyuk will be one sooner than later too. But that's it.

Your core players define the identity of your team and will influence our performances on a nightly basis. Something Gorges is not capable of doing at all, unless he goes into beast mode, something we haven't seen since the 2010 playoffs.

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04-16-2013, 12:08 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Do you consider Grossman as part of Philly's core?
Do you consider Phillips as part of Ottawa's core?
Do you consider Scuderi as part of LA's core?
Do you consider MacDonald as part of Long Island's core?

If you do, well your definition of a team's core is definitely larger than mine.

Price, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Markov, Subban. That's what a core is to me. Gallagher is definitely not far away from becoming one, and Galchenyuk will be one sooner than later too. But that's it.

Your core players define the identity of your team and will influence our performances on a nightly basis. Something Gorges is not capable of doing at all, unless he goes into beast mode, something we haven't seen since the 2010 playoffs.
when Gorges was playing better, his plays + his respect in the locker room makes him a core player IMO

I guess its an extended core then would you consider a guy like Prust part of your core? he's loved by everyone, hard to replace, but he's not a top player...

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04-16-2013, 12:12 PM
  #159
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I don't think it's fair to constantly refer back to "2010 playoff run Gorges" as something that we should expect to see from him on a regular basis. Just like how it wouldn't be fair to expect the same from Halak, Cammalleri or Gill (three players off the top of my head who had monstrously above-average runs that playoffs with us).

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04-16-2013, 12:24 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Del Zotto is as much of a PP specialist as Subban. Schenn is racking up huge minutes for Philly this year. Played more than 30 just yesterday. He's physical AND defensive, that's one dimension more than Gorges. Meszaros is a big body who's hard to play against while being capable at some extent offensively and gifted defensively. The O'Donnell - Meszaros pairing was extremely effective a couple of years ago even when given tough matchups in road rinks in the playoffs. We witnessed it first hand.

As for Gardiner and Hamilton, hey! Subban has been scratched the past two years! Did it mean he was a worst player than Gorges? I don't think so...
Nor really, Del Zotto has 6 PP points and the Rangers PP sucks. Part of why they are having a down year is Del Zotto is forced to play bigger minutes with Staal out. He has above average offensive skill but defensively he is below average.

Did you see Gallagher deke Schenn out of his jock strap? Part of the reason Toronto traded him is that he is flat footed and can't handle skill players. He is good physically but average defensively. You have no clue who Meszaros is do you?

Subban was worse than Gorges the last 2 years. This year he's taken his game up a couple of notches.

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04-16-2013, 12:28 PM
  #161
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Nor really, Del Zotto has 6 PP points and the Rangers PP sucks. Part of why they are having a down year is Del Zotto is forced to play bigger minutes with Staal out. He has above average offensive skill but defensively he is below average.

Did you see Gallagher deke Schenn out of his jock strap? Part of the reason Toronto traded him is that he is flat footed and can't handle skill players. He is good physically but average defensively. You have no clue who Meszaros is do you?

Subban was worse than Gorges the last 2 years. This year he's taken his game up a couple of notches.
No way, Gorges cant skate, shoot or pass. He blocks shots.

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04-16-2013, 12:39 PM
  #162
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when Gorges was playing better, his plays + his respect in the locker room makes him a core player IMO

I guess its an extended core then would you consider a guy like Prust part of your core? he's loved by everyone, hard to replace, but he's not a top player...
Prust is what he is. A very important player who's a leader in his own way, but he's not a part of the "core" per say, as far as my definition is concerned. To me, pieces of your core are pieces without whom your team would crumble. They're building blocks.

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04-16-2013, 12:42 PM
  #163
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I dunno, as a rule I agree and I'm not a big fan of giving non core players long term deals, but I don't think Gorges is really a concern. If there's any non-core player I'm comfortable with giving a long deal to it's him.

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04-16-2013, 12:44 PM
  #164
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So these threads pop up after two consecutive losses? C`mon guys...

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04-16-2013, 12:49 PM
  #165
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So these threads pop up after two consecutive losses? C`mon guys...
And if they happened in the middle of a winning streak, we would get the "CHILLAX GUYZZZ (LOLZ I'M QUOTING CAREY PRICE). OUR FANBASE IS IDIOTIC FOR COMPLAINING IN THE MIDDLE OF A GREAT SEQUENCE YADDA YADDA YADDA"

Like Whitesnake would say, there's no winning on these boards when it comes down being critical of some players.

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04-16-2013, 02:44 PM
  #166
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you don't consider him as part of your core? I mean at this point it really is a personal opinion because I see him as a core player without a doubt, even though he's having a meh season and a couple of horrible games
I think Gorges is a borderline core player personally, meaning he's not a disposable role player but he's not nearly as untouchable as some make him sound. Meaning he's in the same league as Eller, Prust and Gionta more than Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk or Plekanec. He's a team leader and he's nice to have, but he's only a top pairing guy when he plays with Subban. He's a fundamentally sound and willing to take abuse but unskilled, undersized (for a player of his profile) and relatively slow.

So yeah, I think it's perfectly fair to be skeptical about the length of his contract, since effort and willingness to take hits and block shots are too things that tend to age players pretty quickly. Not to mention he's suffered the most of anyone due to the system change, probably even more than Price. The two players who benefited the most from Martin hockey, besides the goalies, were Gorges and Gill.

I'll admit I'm likely being too harsh on him because I think he's been hyped into something he's not. He's a solid guy to have on the top 4 but he shoudn't be pegged in automatically as the second defender behind Subban for the next few years. For all the hate Markov is getting around here lately, Gorges hasn't been better than Markov defensively, and that's not even considering Markov's PP contributions.

I'm not actually THAT concerned, it's not like he's been awful this year, but I think it's time to stop pretending he's something he's not. We could really use another top 4 defensive defenseman (and yes, ideally a big, mean one).

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04-16-2013, 02:50 PM
  #167
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I think Gorges is a borderline core player personally, meaning he's not a disposable role player but he's not nearly as untouchable as some make him sound. Meaning he's in the same league as Eller, Prust and Gionta more than Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk or Plekanec. He's a team leader and he's nice to have, but he's only a top pairing guy when he plays with Subban. He's a fundamentally sound and willing to take abuse but unskilled, undersized (for a player of his profile) and relatively slow.

So yeah, I think it's perfectly fair to be skeptical about the length of his contract, since effort and willingness to take hits and block shots are too things that tend to age players pretty quickly. Not to mention he's suffered the most of anyone due to the system change, probably even more than Price. The two players who benefited the most from Martin hockey, besides the goalies, were Gorges and Gill.

I'll admit I'm likely being too harsh on him because I think he's been hyped into something he's not. He's a solid guy to have on the top 4 but he shoudn't be pegged in automatically as the second defender behind Subban for the next few years. For all the hate Markov is getting around here lately, Gorges hasn't been better than Markov defensively, and that's not even considering Markov's PP contributions.

I'm not actually THAT concerned, it's not like he's been awful this year, but I think it's time to stop pretending he's something he's not. We could really use another top 4 defensive defenseman (and yes, ideally a big, mean one).
We have one but he is out injured. Funny that some said Emelin was this and that, then he gets hurt and those same people say we can't replace him...funny

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04-16-2013, 02:52 PM
  #168
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We have one but he is out injured. Funny that some said Emelin was this and that, then he gets hurt and those same people say we can't replace him...funny
I'm still a little skeptical about Emelin's future on this team, despite really enjoying his game. But yeah, we are obviously missing him right now.

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04-16-2013, 03:01 PM
  #169
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Del Zotto is as much of a PP specialist as Subban. Schenn is racking up huge minutes for Philly this year. Played more than 30 just yesterday. He's physical AND defensive, that's one dimension more than Gorges. Meszaros is a big body who's hard to play against while being capable at some extent offensively and gifted defensively. The O'Donnell - Meszaros pairing was extremely effective a couple of years ago even when given tough matchups in road rinks in the playoffs. We witnessed it first hand.

As for Gardiner and Hamilton, hey! Subban has been scratched the past two years! Did it mean he was a worst player than Gorges? I don't think so...
Schenn played so much because of the injuries to their d.

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04-16-2013, 03:20 PM
  #170
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Schenn raking up huge minutes for Philly says more about Philly's defense than it does about Schenn.

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04-16-2013, 03:27 PM
  #171
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I'm still a little skeptical about Emelin's future on this team, despite really enjoying his game. But yeah, we are obviously missing him right now.
Says a lot about a team when your 4th defenseman gets injured the back end falls apart. Good thing there is so much depth in the pipeline for future years.

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04-16-2013, 03:30 PM
  #172
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Says a lot about a team when your 4th defenseman gets injured the back end falls apart. Good thing there is so much depth in the pipeline for future years.
What is this nonsense.

Before Emelin was injured the D wasnt playing good. Everyone including me we're blaming the poor D on some night. Markov as been off for a while with his constant pinch and Emelin wasnt playing well the past games. Sure he is missed, but it's not the reason of our struggles. The whole team is playing like ****

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04-16-2013, 03:37 PM
  #173
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I hate him with passion

Not physical defensive dman with zero offensive instinc. His first pass is putrid and his slap shot is horrible. He can't even fight .I was embarrassed when he fought mclaren (?) .

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04-16-2013, 03:39 PM
  #174
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I hate him with passion

Not physical defensive dman with zero offensive instinc. His first pass is putrid and his slap shot is horrible. He can't even fight .I was embarrassed when he fought mclaren (?) .
He doesn't need to have exceptional skills in all those parts of his game. He needs to block shots, move people in front of Pricer and get the puck to Subban. That's it, and until he realizes he's not a star defenseman and Captain of this team he will be ostracized by us fans.

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04-16-2013, 03:40 PM
  #175
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Schenn raking up huge minutes for Philly says more about Philly's defense than it does about Schenn.
You would take Gorges in your team before Josh Gorges? Really?

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