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Old
03-29-2013, 04:12 AM
  #126
rumrokh
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Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
I kinda feel the same way, and I appreciate your thoughts about it. I'd like to know what Blues fans see in him to rate him so highly. I tried to focus on him in last night's game and really wasn't very impressed.

Side note: I wish StL would have drafted Rylan Schwartz. He's going to be a coveted free agent, and it would be nice to see him playing on the same team as his brother. I had the privilege of watching them play a lot at Colorado College.
I agree that Blues fans do wrongly think the world of Oshie, but one game doesn't tell you much. And one game when the whole team has been underperforming and he's playing hurt tells you barely anything.

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03-29-2013, 04:19 AM
  #127
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Blues fans probably overrate most of their young players. After we completely sucked after the 04-05 lockout and started the rebuild, fans built a connection with our young players and value them pretty highly. Oshie does get overrated, as does Tarasenko and Berglund. Then you don't even want to mention Perron around here - he's a very touchy subject with the people who wouldn't mind moving him and others who love him. Anyways, you get the point. Oshie is a good player and he's such a hard working, reliable two-way player that for his contract, he's a pretty nice player to keep in your top 6 and win games with. But yeah, he's not a star or anything. Definitely not untouchable. I like your thoughts Ron, I knew you had some potential in you.

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03-29-2013, 05:08 AM
  #128
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Just my point of view, all the talk about Pavelski wouldn't really make a difference a small upgrade. You guys are missing a top 6 POWER forward/vet on offense. In example Jagr, power, size, character, hands, mentor to your young talented players.

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03-29-2013, 05:25 AM
  #129
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I guess every fanbase overrates his youngsters a bit, the thing I see different with the Blues is the consistent overreacting

Todays almighty TJ was a 3rd liner and in every trade prosposal made by our fans 2 yrs ago

Perron was an offensive weapon last year and everyone was thrilled when he came back,now he is everyones wipping-boy today without doing much different

Cole didn't even get a chance from much fans, mostly because of a teenage decision

Everyone seems to know Bergy has not got top6 offensive skills but he still gets bashed if he doesn't get top6 numbers

Halak was, more or less deserved, the wipping-boy right from last season's start and even after good games and a ton of shutouts
You can easily see his injury was one main reason we got owned by LA but all it takes are a few "could-or-should-have-stopped goals or a bad game and the board is full of Jaro bashing again

I expect Backes to be next and I already feel bad for Allen when the eyes turn on him and on every goal he gets

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03-29-2013, 09:26 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostyflo View Post
I guess every fanbase overrates his youngsters a bit, the thing I see different with the Blues is the consistent overreacting

Todays almighty TJ was a 3rd liner and in every trade prosposal made by our fans 2 yrs ago

Perron was an offensive weapon last year and everyone was thrilled when he came back,now he is everyones wipping-boy today without doing much different

Cole didn't even get a chance from much fans, mostly because of a teenage decision

Everyone seems to know Bergy has not got top6 offensive skills but he still gets bashed if he doesn't get top6 numbers

Halak was, more or less deserved, the wipping-boy right from last season's start and even after good games and a ton of shutouts
You can easily see his injury was one main reason we got owned by LA but all it takes are a few "could-or-should-have-stopped goals or a bad game and the board is full of Jaro bashing again

I expect Backes to be next and I already feel bad for Allen when the eyes turn on him and on every goal he gets
Backes is already getting ripped on by a fair amount of the fan base.

What I find funny is one of the very few guys who really hasn't been blamed is Barrett Jackman. Never would have said that a couple years ago.

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03-29-2013, 11:22 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Falco Lombardi View Post
Backes is already getting ripped on by a fair amount of the fan base.

What I find funny is one of the very few guys who really hasn't been blamed is Barrett Jackman. Never would have said that a couple years ago.
thats indeed funny but I guess thats because people need new "enemies" from time to time

btw: first I was shocked when I saw the name here of one of the biggest Blues bashers over last summer (and the last nhl-summer was loooooong) but I welcome Ron Swanson to some civil, nice discussions on our little board!

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03-29-2013, 11:37 AM
  #132
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Who overrates Oshie? He is what he is. A good second liner, or a lower end first liner, that plays hard every game and is great defensively.

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03-29-2013, 11:43 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
Who overrates Oshie? He is what he is. A good second liner, or a lower end first liner, that plays hard every game and is great defensively.
A very sizable percentage of the Blues fanbase and local media?

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03-29-2013, 11:52 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Multimoodia View Post
A very sizable percentage of the Blues fanbase and local media?
What do they consider him then? People love watching him play, doesn't mean they think he's a superstar.

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03-29-2013, 12:02 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
What do they consider him then? People love watching him play, doesn't mean they think he's a superstar.
A genuine first line player.
Which is unfortunate since he really is not one.

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03-29-2013, 12:23 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
Just my point of view, all the talk about Pavelski wouldn't really make a difference a small upgrade. You guys are missing a top 6 POWER forward/vet on offense. In example Jagr, power, size, character, hands, mentor to your young talented players.
I think there is some truth to this.

We could use a player in his 30's who can be a true leader and actually make an impact on the game. Our veteran group has not been very good. Langenbrunner was a voice, made minimal impact on the ice. McDonald used to be good, but half the time he was injured anyways and now is hardly even a factor out there. Nichol wins faceoffs, that's pretty much it, he's not going to make a difference. Jackman is a solid defensive defenseman but he is what he is...Not going to make a huge impact on the scoresheet but he's a solid player to have.

Our other veterans (Steen, Backes) are still in their late 20's and don't have tons of experience.

I think when you look at past winners, they've had older guys who actually contributed and were key players (Hossa, Campbell on Chicago; Williams, Mitchell on LA; Chara, Ryder, Kelly on Boston, etc). IMO, we lack that, and would probably have to be willing to spend a little money to acquire some.

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03-29-2013, 12:24 PM
  #137
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We need big Joe not little Joe.

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03-29-2013, 12:25 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multimoodia View Post
A genuine first line player.
Which is unfortunate since he really is not one.
He has produced like a first liner the past two seasons, a lower end first liner, but a first liner nonetheless. That's without have extremely talented linemates and being defensively responsible and being on a great contract. Sounds like a keeper to me.

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03-29-2013, 12:30 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
We need big Joe not little Joe.
Yep. Have you seen how Pavelski plays against the Blues? He disappears.

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03-29-2013, 12:36 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
He has produced like a first liner the past two seasons, a lower end first liner, but a first liner nonetheless. That's without have extremely talented linemates and being defensively responsible and being on a great contract. Sounds like a keeper to me.
As you note, lower level first line player which I think is the best he is ever going to be. He should be playing second line and likely will if/when Tarasenko turns the corner. A lot of fans see him as more a savior than many of the posters on here.



Of course, Oshie is playing second line alongside two other players who should also be maxed out as second line players as well...so he does fit in.

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03-29-2013, 12:39 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multimoodia View Post
As you note, lower level first line player which I think is the best he is ever going to be. He should be playing second line and likely will if/when Tarasenko turns the corner. A lot of fans see him as more a savior than many of the posters on here.



Of course, Oshie is playing second line alongside two other players who should also be maxed out as second line players as well...so he does fit in.
Yeah, I think he's pretty much hit his ceiling. Maybe he'll have a couple of seasons where he gets some lucky bounces and ends up breaking the 60 point mark, but that's about the maximum. Ideally, he'd be a great second liner.

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03-29-2013, 01:12 PM
  #142
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McDonald was a difference maker last year. Over a huge sample size, the power play went from 14% to 25% with him in the lineup, and that's a difference maker by definition (yes, he was driving its success personally).

Now you move him because this Blues team isn't going anywhere in the postseason, and by moving him it does send at least some message. Also it allows guys like Porter and Cracknell to play more regularly and frankly they play better with those two in the lineup. Probably because those guys play every game like it might be their last taste of the NHL. IMO you trade McDonald before Monday's game, then if they play poorly be willing to make another core trade, but one that isn't just shakeup, it's a long-term adjustment. Trade a forward to fill the LHD thing.

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03-29-2013, 01:24 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
Yeah, I think he's pretty much hit his ceiling. Maybe he'll have a couple of seasons where he gets some lucky bounces and ends up breaking the 60 point mark, but that's about the maximum. Ideally, he'd be a great second liner.
Yes Oshie is an ideal 2nd liner. But most St. Louis fans act like he's a first ballot HHOF all-star RW. However if he was part of a trade that involved upgrading the team, then so be it. The point is, nearly every one of the players on our teams is expendable.

They may be on good contracts, they may have great work ethic, and they may be a great guy. But at some point you have to sit down and look at how things are getting done. A reason a lot of 2nd line players are 2nd line players is because of their inconsistency to get points.

Our point totals are pathetic. How pathetic?

PA Parenteau has 34 points
Matt Moulson has 35 points
Hell even Brad Boyes has 27 points this year
Chris ****ing Kunitz has 44 points
Pascal Dupuis 26 points

These are all players I would relate to Oshie's skill level. They are all primarily 2nd line players playing on a team that doesn't have any wing depth so they are forced into a 1st line spot. The missing piece is that we don't have a #1 C to make any of our 2nd line players as good as ones posted above.

WE NEED TO STOP RELYING ON A BUNCH OF 2ND LINE PLAYERS FILLED IN LINES 1-3. We need upgrades simple as that.

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03-29-2013, 01:27 PM
  #144
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Seriously, no one on here acts like Oshie is some god, so you people can just stop.

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03-29-2013, 01:30 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Yes Oshie is an ideal 2nd liner. But most St. Louis fans act like he's a first ballot HHOF all-star RW. However if he was part of a trade that involved upgrading the team, then so be it. The point is, nearly every one of the players on our teams is expendable.

They may be on good contracts, they may have great work ethic, and they may be a great guy. But at some point you have to sit down and look at how things are getting done. A reason a lot of 2nd line players are 2nd line players is because of their inconsistency to get points.

Our point totals are pathetic. How pathetic?

PA Parenteau has 34 points
Matt Moulson has 35 points
Hell even Brad Boyes has 27 points this year
Chris ****ing Kunitz has 44 points
Pascal Dupuis 26 points

These are all players I would relate to Oshie's skill level. They are all primarily 2nd line players playing on a team that doesn't have any wing depth so they are forced into a 1st line spot. The missing piece is that we don't have a #1 C to make any of our 2nd line players as good as ones posted above.

WE NEED TO STOP RELYING ON A BUNCH OF 2ND LINE PLAYERS FILLED IN LINES 1-3. We need upgrades simple as that.
There's a LOT of exaggeration in this post. I have never once seen Oshie referred to as a first ballot hall of famer or anything even close, and I've seen lots of Oshie discussion. Comparing him to Brad Boyes and the rest on that list is fairly silly also. Cmon. It's ok to not like a particular player but the over the top exaggeration works against your argument.

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03-29-2013, 01:36 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
There's a LOT of exaggeration in this post. I have never once seen Oshie referred to as a first ballot hall of famer or anything even close, and I've seen lots of Oshie discussion. Comparing him to Brad Boyes and the rest on that list is fairly silly also. Cmon. It's ok to not like a particular player but the over the top exaggeration works against your argument.
The HHOF part was an obvious joke. The post isn't just about Oshie. It's about all of our players. Yes we have scoring going across the board but at the same time, this is where the inconsistency comes from. We need THOSE 3 guys that will come in and hold a .7+ PPG average the whole season. We need a true first line. How is comapring him to that list silly though? Would you not agree that all of those players listed would be 2nd line players on our team as well? The best player on that list is PA and Stewy is better than him.

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03-29-2013, 01:41 PM
  #147
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The HHOF part was an obvious joke. The post isn't just about Oshie. It's about all of our players. Yes we have scoring going across the board but at the same time, this is where the inconsistency comes from. We need THOSE 3 guys that will come in and hold a .7+ PPG average the whole season. We need a true first line. How is comapring him to that list silly though? Would you not agree that all of those players listed would be 2nd line players on our team as well?
I think your frustration is coming from the idea that many of these guys were ones fans hoped would grow into first liner roles. When they were younger, the default was to project their scoring rates higher. Scored 40 pts as a rookie? Oh, 80 points soon then. That kind of thing. I agree it's lots of 2d liners. For bursts they can look like first liners but not over sustained entire seasons. Or, more like low end first liners. Last year Backes and Oshie had points in the first line range, but low end first liners. Of course their defense was so good you'd bump them up over many of the more one-dimensional players who had a handful more points. This year they're more like 2d liners again. I understand the frustration. We're all frustrated.

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03-29-2013, 01:43 PM
  #148
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this might be one of the more stupid posts here but could it be that the amazing depth is killing this team?

I mean we have a bunch full of fringe players:
Backes, Oshie, Perron, Stew are boarderline 1st liners, should be 2nd liners
Amac isn't even top6 material this year
Bergy is a third-liner, Sobi a fringe 3rd, better 4th liner

now mix all this guys, include Steen and 2 rookies (and let one of em play in the 4th) and let them all split 2nd line icetime. so maybe its too much for them to do everything instead of playing what you can do best and focus on playing d, score, hit, bring energy or whatever...best example is Sobi between Perron and Frank

maybe an old-school top6, checking-line, energy-line system would work better with this team, trade one or two good forwards for better talent and let the role players play their ****ing roles (pretty much all of them showed they can step up for some time)

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03-29-2013, 01:52 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by frostyflo View Post
this might be one of the more stupid posts here but could it be that the amazing depth is killing this team?

I mean we have a bunch full of fringe players:
Backes, Oshie, Perron, Stew are boarderline 1st liners, should be 2nd liners
Amac isn't even top6 material this year
Bergy is a third-liner, Sobi a fringe 3rd, better 4th liner

now mix all this guys, include Steen and 2 rookies (and let one of em play in the 4th) and let them all split 2nd line icetime. so maybe its too much for them to do everything instead of playing what you can do best and focus on playing d, score, hit, bring energy or whatever...best example is Sobi between Perron and Frank

maybe an old-school top6, checking-line, energy-line system would work better with this team, trade one or two good forwards for better talent and let the role players play their ****ing roles (pretty much all of them showed they can step up for some time)
It really could be. Other than the 6-1 start. Our Top 9 when healthy hasn't done nearly anything.

Ideally we would want something like this if we were going to do that.

???-???-Stewart
Perron-Backes-Frank
Schwartz-Sobotoka-Porter/Cracknell
Cracknell/Porter-Nichol-Reaves

1st line LW and 1st line C should be 28+ years old

Or you could also trade off Perron for a piece and move Schwartz to 2nd line.

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03-29-2013, 01:54 PM
  #150
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You guys have good depth for second liners but you're just lacking that impact veteran power forward on first line with size. He'd be scoring those greasy goals and your younger players will start to do the same. Your vets right now aren't really impact players which is why it's not really helping.

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