HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Eugene Melnyk says he'll prove Cooke on Karlsson was intentional

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-27-2013, 08:46 PM
  #226
ryanwb
Registered User
 
ryanwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 863
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
The argument would be that no human would increase their force to that level in that circumstance to break their fall. This testimony would be coming from experts in the field - not you and not me.

Again, this under the assumption that that is what the physics beyond the incident suggest, maybe they don't suggest that at all: that's what he's going to find out by the research.

I fail to see how there's anything wrong with that. Great owner if you ask me.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the investigation itself, but you won't be able to prove intent with it unfortunately.

ryanwb is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:46 PM
  #227
Flamingo
Registered User
 
Flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnomnomnom View Post
How will this in any way affect Karlsson?
If he thinks the NHL isn't protecting its players well enough, and he's concerned about the future safety of the players he's invested a tonne of money in, this is a rational response.

Flamingo is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:47 PM
  #228
Sureves
Registered User
 
Sureves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 7,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
How would you intend to prove that no human would? You could only prove that no human did.
I am not an expert. I am merely saying there are certainly many ways in this situation that we could scientifically support the assertion that Cooke did it intentionally.

Prove? No.

Suggest it is highly probable? Absolutely.

Sureves is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:47 PM
  #229
ByeBye
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,589
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by janecky View Post
That would be true only if you did a blind statistical study of similar plays. Obviously the kind of study I was talking about would also involve detailed studies of the mechanics involved in the plays. You would have probabilities accumulating on different tracks of the investigation, and if you had anomalies on this specific play across the board in comparison with a large number of comparable plays, it would be a convincing demonstration of intent. I am not saying that is the inevitable conclusion of such study, but I would be interested to know how much of an outlier Cooke's play really was and on what counts.
What this would do is pretty much what the guy mentioning confidence intervals is trying to do and suggesting what should be done (and what I expect this investigation to result in as well): Try to make a completely subjective assessment of an incident look somewhat "scientific". Add in the argument that they're experts (although self-chosen by the funder that has a bias but let's ignore that) of some sort and not people like you and me and you have all the ingredients together to fool people that have never seen a university from the inside.

ByeBye is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:47 PM
  #230
petrishriekandgo
Why not us?
 
petrishriekandgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,303
vCash: 500
If he really thinks it's intentional he should file charges, this has happened before in the NHL.

petrishriekandgo is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:48 PM
  #231
Marvelous Manked
Ooh to be a Gooner
 
Marvelous Manked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sudbury/Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
As an Ottawa fan: Eugene Melnyk is consistently embarrassing and needs to learn to write the cheques without flapping his gums.
I disagree.

**** the faceless owners of the league.

I like my owners passionate, fiery, and a bit overly dramatic.

Melnyk's acting completely stupid right now, AND I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!!

Marvelous Manked is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:48 PM
  #232
Sureves
Registered User
 
Sureves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 7,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanwb View Post
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the investigation itself, but you won't be able to prove intent with it unfortunately.
Not prove, but you could develop a scientifically backed argument that it is extremely likely that he did it intentionally.

Just as you can't prove to me that Crosby is a better hockey player than I am, but you can certainly develop a scientifically backed argument that it is extremely like that he is.

Sureves is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:48 PM
  #233
Stanley Foobrick
Clockwork Blue
 
Stanley Foobrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Fooville, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Entirely different situation in your comparison.
No, no it's not. You are trying to get at the logical process of an action. It's no different at all.

Stanley Foobrick is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:48 PM
  #234
Kane One
HFB Partner
 
Kane One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Brooklyn, New NY
Country: United States
Posts: 30,127
vCash: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
I am not an expert. I am merely saying there are certainly many ways in this situation that we could scientifically support the assertion that Cooke did it intentionally.

Prove? No.

Suggest it is highly probable? Absolutely.
I don't think there's a single way you can scientifically support that assertion.

__________________
Kane One is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:49 PM
  #235
2CHAINZ
@EverythingPawg
 
2CHAINZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: We global Son
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,710
vCash: 500
Why is Eugene trying to cast darkness on to a team that has been nothing but a bright light in the NHL all season long ? 2CHHHAAAIIINNZZZ

2CHAINZ is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:49 PM
  #236
Marvelous Manked
Ooh to be a Gooner
 
Marvelous Manked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sudbury/Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
I don't think there's a single way you can scientifically support that assertion.
You can't prove it.

The best you can do is similar to what would happen in a court case where an expert would say how they believe it was ______ due to X, Y, and Z.

No proof though.

Marvelous Manked is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:50 PM
  #237
Hurt
Registered User
 
Hurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,554
vCash: 500
What a goofball. Time for Eugene to grow up.

__________________
Shoot me a PM with your concerns. Also, come visit us in the Science Forum!
Hurt is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:50 PM
  #238
Crisp Breakout
Registered User
 
Crisp Breakout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 5,121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
I don't think there's a single way you can scientifically support that assertion.
Prosecutors can rarely "prove" intent in criminal trials either by that proof standard.

Crisp Breakout is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:50 PM
  #239
Marvelous Manked
Ooh to be a Gooner
 
Marvelous Manked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sudbury/Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
What a goofball. Time for Eugene to grow up.
I don't want him to though.

Marvelous Manked is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:51 PM
  #240
Stanley Foobrick
Clockwork Blue
 
Stanley Foobrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Fooville, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
You can't prove it.

The best you can do is similar to what would happen in a court case where an expert would say how they believe it was ______ due to X, Y, and Z.

No proof though.
Exactly..... and I don't care who, or how many experts you line up the NHL isn't going to do anything different now than they did the day after the original incident.

Stanley Foobrick is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:51 PM
  #241
Kane One
HFB Partner
 
Kane One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Brooklyn, New NY
Country: United States
Posts: 30,127
vCash: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
You can't prove it.

The best you can do is similar to what would happen in a court case where an expert would say how they believe it was ______ due to X, Y, and Z.

No proof though.
And then the defendant's lawyer would ask if it could be an accident, due to that same X, Y, and Z, in which that expert would have to say yes.

Kane One is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:51 PM
  #242
Beau Knows
Captain Canada
 
Beau Knows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,361
vCash: 500
I would love to be on the team of "scientists" being payed for this . I would have beakers, guys with glasses in lab coats and mice in mazes to show Melnyk how hard we were working on the study. He would probably think we were doing an amazing job .

Beau Knows is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:52 PM
  #243
barabr10
UM ya that;s right
 
barabr10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: ottawa
Posts: 154
vCash: 500
We can call Melnyk crazy and insane all we want, but i for one am happy we have an owner that cares about his players and team this much it shows you the kind of person he is. I think he should forget about Cooke but i respect him for still trying. Believe me there are a lot worse owners in the league who don't nearly show the passion Melnyk shows for the Senators.

barabr10 is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:53 PM
  #244
Marvelous Manked
Ooh to be a Gooner
 
Marvelous Manked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sudbury/Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
And then the defendant's lawyer would ask if ______ could be an accident, due to that same X, Y, and Z, in which that expert would have to say yes.
Tell me how the justice system works.

A lot of time "proof" isn't proof, if ya know what I mean.

Also, to the guy who said the NHL won't change its mind, you're completely right.

Marvelous Manked is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:54 PM
  #245
Marvelous Manked
Ooh to be a Gooner
 
Marvelous Manked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sudbury/Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by barabr10 View Post
We can call Melnyk crazy and insane all we want, but i for one am happy we have an owner that cares about his players and team this much it shows you the kind of person he is. I think he should forget about Cooke but i respect him for still trying. Believe me there are a lot worse owners in the league who don't nearly show the passion Melnyk shows for the Senators.
+1

Exactly how I feel about this.

Marvelous Manked is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:54 PM
  #246
Duffy13
‎(ノಥ益ಥ)ノ ┻━┻
 
Duffy13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: PEI, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 540
vCash: 500
At the end of the investigation, the people who believe Cooke did it on purpose will still believe he did it on purpose... and those who believe it was an accident will not believe the investigation due to it being perceived as being biased... and that it was an accident.

The NHL will also do nothing, and other fan bases will mock Melnyk like they are now...

But the whole thing is fun to watch play out haha

Duffy13 is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:54 PM
  #247
Sureves
Registered User
 
Sureves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 7,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
No, no it's not. You are trying to get at the logical process of an action. It's no different at all.
It's completely different. You're suggesting a case where it was a red light: he either saw it or he didn't.

In this case, at that angle, with that force, if it was almost impossible for him to have administered that much force unintentionally, (which they CAN show) then that's an entirely different story.

If you insist on using your analogy, it would be more like you running the red light, saying you didn't see it was a red light, but you noticed there was a crack on the red light bulb. They could in that case develop an argument that they are virtually certain that if you saw the crack in the bulb, you probably also realized it was red. In other words, using the facts of the incident to show intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
I don't think there's a single way you can scientifically support that assertion.
But there is, I already mentioned it earlier and I'm a finance major not a scientist.

If the researchers can show that a player of that size, on that angle, would at a 99% confidence interval exercise between X and Y Newtons of force in order to break their fall in that position, and they can also show that Z (where Z > X,Y) Newtons of force were exercised, that would suggest that Cooke administered an amount of force that was unjustified by simply trying to break his fall.

This would be evidence to suggest that he administered additional force outside of what a normal human would do to break a similar fall from a similar angle, thus suggesting intent.

Combine that with expert testimony, and that's a scientifically based argument to suggest intent.

Sureves is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:54 PM
  #248
Oberyn
Prince of Dorne
 
Oberyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,804
vCash: 500
I honestly think this guy is delusional.

Oberyn is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:56 PM
  #249
2CHAINZ
@EverythingPawg
 
2CHAINZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: We global Son
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by barabr10 View Post
We can call Melnyk crazy and insane all we want, but i for one am happy we have an owner that cares about his players and team this much it shows you the kind of person he is. I think he should forget about Cooke but i respect him for still trying. Believe me there are a lot worse owners in the league who don't nearly show the passion Melnyk shows for the Senators.

100% agree but this is a lot like a player getting a penalty and complaining to the ref, the league looked into it and it's over time to move on. Don't make the Senators look like the Montreal Canadians when Chara hit Max Pac. Let them focus on winning games not proving Cooke attempted to ruin Karlsson's career. 2CHHAAAIIINNNZZZ

2CHAINZ is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 08:57 PM
  #250
Marvelous Manked
Ooh to be a Gooner
 
Marvelous Manked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sudbury/Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoofSlashFoig View Post
I honestly think this guy is delusional.
I honestly think you're wrong.

He's just legitimately infuriated about what happened, and is taking whatever measures he can to try and prove he's right.

In the end, he won't, but this hardly means Melnyk is "delusional".

Marvelous Manked is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:23 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.