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03-30-2013, 11:02 AM
  #226
dtones520
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Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post
If he plays a tough game, then it is very bad of him to be a diver. It's bad to dive in 1st place, but specially bad if a player plays tough.

6-1 and 6-4 is a big difference.


Nice that you came up with a list.
I'm not saying I think diving is a good thing, I despise it, but players do it to try and draw a penalty and get their team a power play. The post I quoted was referring to Brown having no heart because he dives a lot. My point is that he is doing it in an effort to get his team a power play. The way Franzen has been playing becoming a diver and drawing a penalty or two because of it would be more impactful than anything else he has been doing lately.

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03-30-2013, 11:38 AM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
Doughty, Weber, Suter, OEL, Pietrengelo, Kulikov, McDonaugh, Letang, Hedman, Enstrom, Phaneuf, Karlsson, Chara, Girardi, Edler, Burns, Boyle.

I just named 17 guys without even giving it much thought that I would rather have over Bowumeester. So I question that remark exceptionally. Hell, I'm not convinced he's better than Kronwall. I think that's up to be questioned as well.

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03-30-2013, 11:42 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Shoalzie View Post
J-Bo has that ugly cap number...that's enough to scare me away. I like his game but he's not $6.8 million good.

I'd make a run at Streit as a rental...Bouwmeester is a bigger commitment than they need to make.
Teams can hold/pass off salary under the new CBA. Its possible we could get Calgary to retain a bit of Bouwmeester's salary if it were that big of a deal.

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Old
03-30-2013, 11:42 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
I think that as a result of all the time people here spent watching Lidstrom, there's a general consensus that if our #1 defenseman isn't perfect, then he sucks ass and needs to be replaced.

People will really need to abandon that sentiment.
+1
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
People with eyeballs have been watching Nick Lidstrom be less than perfect for 3-4 years.

The fall from 2012 Lidstrom to 2013 Kronwall isn't that great.

The problem is that we don't have anyone taking Kronwall's old job and doing well (although Kindl is showing some ability of late).

And that nobody has replaced Stuart.
How many good players are in the league? According to you 3, Datsyuk Corsby and Chara?
Ericsson is Stuart's replacement. I know you mean that Stuart is the best Dman in history of hockey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Letang, Suter, Subban, Keith, Seabrook, Weber, Pietereangleo, Ekman-Larsson, Yandle, Edler, Karlsson, Chara, Phaneuf, Enstrom, Campbell, Shattenkirk, Boyle, Doughty, Girardi, Byfuglien.

Not in any particular order. But there's 20 D I'm taking over Bouwmeester any day.
How about Kronwall, Beauchemin, Souray?
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Originally Posted by sepster View Post
Which part?
The whole post, more or less.

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Old
03-30-2013, 11:43 AM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post
+1

How many good players are in the league? According to you 3, Datsyuk Corsby and Chara?
Ericsson is Stuart's replacement. I know you mean that Stuart is the best Dman in history of hockey.

How about Kronwall, Beauchemin, Souray?


The whole post, more or less.
This is getting ridiculous.

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Old
03-30-2013, 11:52 AM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoalzie View Post
J-Bo has that ugly cap number...that's enough to scare me away. I like his game but he's not $6.8 million good.

I'd make a run at Streit as a rental...Bouwmeester is a bigger commitment than they need to make.
His cap hit scares me a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtones520 View Post
I'm not saying I think diving is a good thing, I despise it, but players do it to try and draw a penalty and get their team a power play. The post I quoted was referring to Brown having no heart because he dives a lot. My point is that he is doing it in an effort to get his team a power play. The way Franzen has been playing becoming a diver and drawing a penalty or two because of it would be more impactful than anything else he has been doing lately.
It is a disgrace to the game and even bigger when tough guys do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Teams can hold/pass off salary under the new CBA. Its possible we could get Calgary to retain a bit of Bouwmeester's salary if it were that big of a deal.
Oooooooooor, they take Quincey and his 4M.
Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
This is getting ridiculous.
I did not list them as better, I was merely asking other posters on their opinion. I have always liked Beauchemin's game. Souray I do not know much about. But since the Ducks are doing great, I was wondering what other posters think of their game. I do not get to watch other teams but the Wings.

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Old
03-30-2013, 12:45 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtones520 View Post
I'm not saying I think diving is a good thing, I despise it, but players do it to try and draw a penalty and get their team a power play. The post I quoted was referring to Brown having no heart because he dives a lot. My point is that he is doing it in an effort to get his team a power play. The way Franzen has been playing becoming a diver and drawing a penalty or two because of it would be more impactful than anything else he has been doing lately.
Haters gonna hate.

Also, of those 17-20 defensemen better than Bouwmeester, how many are either available or affordable in a trade?

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03-30-2013, 12:58 PM
  #233
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Besides whether or not we "like" JBo.

How do you get teams to trade you a legit #1 Dman?

Answer: You don't. They have to be underperforming or you sign them for MAD MONEY as a UFA (Campbell / JBo initially).

So no matter how you slice it, we are are going to be unhappy with our "#1" D man unless we draft him ourselves.

JBo is a good player.

He is at worst our #2/3

The real question is what is the cost.

Calgary just got burned. If feaster doesnt screw us, he gets fired soon. Maybe fired anyway.

I am ok with using Flip as the "greedy?" UFA that has to go... But we are going to lose someone we like if we want Jbo. Likely 1 of Smith/Kindl/Nyquist/Tatar/Jarnkrok

I would prefer to "HOPE" Smith/Kindl and Quincey start playing as a nice "cohesive" unit. And then we can keep all those young guys.

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03-30-2013, 01:02 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
I think that as a result of all the time people here spent watching Lidstrom, there's a general consensus that if our #1 defenseman isn't perfect, then he sucks ass and needs to be replaced.

People will really need to abandon that sentiment.
This is a good point, and it is definitely true to an extent.

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03-30-2013, 01:12 PM
  #235
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J-Bo's cap hit is too much. Pass on J-Bo. Just keep developing the core of D we got. J-Bo will not make the wings a contender so there is no point. Would be better to get a winger for Daytsuk if that will help entice him to stay

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03-30-2013, 01:21 PM
  #236
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Honestly trading for Bouwmeester is the same thing as trading for Quincey.

Desperation move for a defensemen who plays a prominent role on terrible teams that we hope we can plug in the same role and be successful with.

Bouwmeester has played top pairing minutes for 10 years in this league and has not played a single playoff game.
Coincidence? Yeah I don't think so.

He's been playing over his head his whole career, he's not a top-pairing guy.

We need to stay away from him like the plague.

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03-30-2013, 01:27 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Honestly trading for Bouwmeester is the same thing as trading for Quincey.

Desperation move for a defensemen who plays a prominent role on terrible teams that we hope we can plug in the same role and be successful with.

Bouwmeester has played top pairing minutes for 10 years in this league and has not played a single playoff game.
Coincidence? Yeah I don't think so.

He's been playing over his head his whole career, he's not a top-pairing guy.

We need to stay away from him like the plague.
Hopefully Holland thinks the same.

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Old
03-30-2013, 01:41 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Bouwmeester has played top pairing minutes for 10 years in this league and has not played a single playoff game.
Coincidence? Yeah I don't think so.
Are you suggesting that Bouwmeester is the anti-Pronger?

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03-30-2013, 01:44 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Besides whether or not we "like" JBo.

So no matter how you slice it, we are are going to be unhappy with our "#1" D man unless we draft him ourselves.
Then let's draft him ourselves.

Problem solved!

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03-30-2013, 04:07 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
Are you suggesting that Bouwmeester is the anti-Pronger?
he's anti-winning

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Old
03-30-2013, 04:34 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
he's anti-winning
That didnt stop them from getting Q

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Old
03-30-2013, 06:18 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
Also, of those 17-20 defensemen better than Bouwmeester, how many are either available or affordable in a trade?
I disagree with the notion that he'd be a good pickup simply because he's one of the only worthwhile defensemen available.

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03-30-2013, 06:20 PM
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
I disagree with the notion that he'd be a good pickup simply because he's one of the only worthwhile defensemen available.
Bingo.

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Old
03-30-2013, 06:37 PM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
I'd say Burns is in the same tier as Bouwmeester, personally. I'd take Burns over him though.

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03-30-2013, 06:46 PM
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
I'd say Burns is in the same tier as Bouwmeester, personally. I'd take Burns over him though.
Burns hasn't been in San Jose what everyone here thought he would be, but I agree.

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03-30-2013, 07:31 PM
  #246
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I see no reason for this team to deal for Bouwmeester. He is not a true number 1. He is a number 1 on a bad team. He is on the level of Kronwall, and really the Wings don't need another Kronwall. We don't need a left handed offensive dman at all. I mean right now the Wings have Kronwall, White, Kindl, and Smith as true offensive dman. Heck even Quincey and Ericsson aren't offensive black holes. Getting Bouwmeester just means we have a better 2nd pairing PP unit because Babs is obsessed with having a LD/RD pairing on the first PP unit, which means Brunner is still there even if we trade for Bouwmeester. Honestly if you put Smith, Kronner, Kindl, and White or Quincey at the points right now I think our PP would be better. If the Wings didn't have Kronner I'd be all for it, but the without Lids the Wings need to keep that money and use it to get Dats and Z legit wingers. Having a ton of puck movers on the back end only works if you have elite puck movers and a very solid offensive team. This team doesn't have that.

In contrast we have one legitimate defensive dman in Ericsson. He is the only player on the entire team I feel comfortable with on the PK. This team doesn't need offensive dmen. They need a true stay at home guy that will allow Kronner to roam. Even better if he can throw a good open ice hit. One of the things that made the Stuart/ Kronner pairing so effective was its physicality. Players on the other team always had to keep their heads up and make quick plays. This gave Kronner and Stuart more time to get the puck out. Then you can move Ericsson down to play with Kindl, which is a pairing I really like. It can play vs the bigger teams first lines and is a little bit more of a two way line. Kindl also plays better when allowed to play an offensive game. That leaves Smith on the third pairing with whoever we want to play there. He isn't a top 4 dman yet and I think he'd do better and be able to up his offensive game/ gain confidence against worse competition. If Holland deals for any offensive dmen I'm going to be quite annoyed, because it isn't going to help this team as currently constructed.

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03-30-2013, 07:34 PM
  #247
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We need a top-pairing defenseman...badly. Adding J-Bo does not make us a true contender this year and likely not one next year either, but it definitely improves our team for the rest of this season and for the 2013-2014 season.

I agree that if that fool Feaster wises up and asks for one or two of Smith/Kindl/Jarnkrok/Tatar/Nyquist, then we should tell him to go scratch, but I would not hesitate to offer a package of Flip, Q and a 2013 2nd/3rd (maybe Paterson instead of the pick, if that's what the Fool prefers).

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03-30-2013, 07:38 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post
+1

How many good players are in the league? According to you 3, Datsyuk Corsby and Chara?
Ericsson is Stuart's replacement. I know you mean that Stuart is the best Dman in history of hockey.

How about Kronwall, Beauchemin, Souray?


The whole post, more or less.
And who replaces Ericsson?

At some point, you're chasing your tail with this game.
So Kronwall replaces Lidstrom. Ericsson replaces Stuart.
Even if you buy that...
Nobody replaced Kronwall and Ericsson

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03-30-2013, 07:50 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
And who replaces Ericsson?
DeKeyser?

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03-30-2013, 09:47 PM
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
I disagree with the notion that he'd be a good pickup simply because he's one of the only worthwhile defensemen available.
If you want to improve on defense, how do you expect to do that without getting the best available defenseman?

Drafting a defenseman means you may get a top pairing guy in 6+ years at least. Trying to sign one in free agency is taking a big risk, as the Suter/Parise sweepstakes showed us. So other than that the only way to improve on defense is with a trade, and if the better alternatives aren't available, then you either say "oh well, maybe next year" (which seems to have been a critique of Holland for the past three), or you make a trade and take a risk in him working out for you.

Personally, I think Bouwmeester is worth the risk.

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