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Rask-Trying to get a feel for the average Bruins fan on here, please help

View Poll Results: How Many of the Goals Were Rask's Fault Tonight?
1 goal was his fault 41 24.55%
2 goals were his fault 25 14.97%
3 goals were his fault 8 4.79%
4 goals were his fault 1 0.60%
5 goals were his fault 7 4.19%
None of the goals were his fault. Bad luck and big breakdowns on D to fault 85 50.90%
Voters: 167. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-28-2013, 12:30 PM
  #151
MTaylorJ1
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I guess I'm harder on goalies than most, (which is kind of odd because I was one). Or maybe it's not that I'm harder on them, but that I expect more from an "elite" goalie. Maybe I expect too much... but here's the problem as I see it...


Since when is "not his fault" an acceptable standard of play? People expect Krejci to be great every night and kill him when he's not. People expect Seguin to bring them out of their seats every night, and when he doesn't they say something's wrong with him.

To me, "was it his fault?" is setting the bar too low. That's what you say about backups, not guys who are supposed to be elite players in the league.

Do the Rangers expect Lundqvist to just stop the easy ones? Or do they expect him to be a difference maker by making the difficult save at critical times?

Tips and deflections are not unstoppable.
Breakaways and odd man rushes are not unstoppable.
They are high degree-of-difficulty saves, but we see goalies making these stops every week.

If Rask was able to make the save on that 2on1 last night or stop that deflection it would have been a great save. But what's wrong with asking for a little greatness?

Rask is in line to become one of the highest paid players on the team, should they not expect a player tying up that much cap space to be great? To be a difference maker and stop the ones he shouldn't once in a while?

Very few teams are able to win the Cup without a goalie who stood on his head at some point. The 2010 Hawks come to mind. But look at Thomas in the 2011 playoffs. Look at Quick last year. Look at how many playoff MVP's are goalies. If it's true that your goalie has to be your best penalty killer, then it's also true that your goalie has to be your best player at crunch time.

I'm not saying Rask can't do it. Rask is already a very good goalie (and I think he has the potential to be the best in the league). He was great in the Buffalo series in 2010 and in the first half of the Philly series. He can and has made some of those 10 bell saves on breakaways/odd-man-rushes/and deflections this season and in the past. But IMHO, he hasn't made them consistently when the game has been on the line this year and that is part of the reason the B's are the worst team in the league at holding 3rd period leads. Certainly not the only reason, but one part of the equation.

It seems to me that, no matter how tight you are defensively, good teams are going to find a way to get a good scoring chance on you late in a close game. Thomas grew to be a difference maker in those moments, and I think Rask is still learning.
No, the standard should be, are you performing amongst the best in the league, which he is.

The problem with the Bruins right now, is they may not be good enough the way their skaters are constituted, to take advantage of a goalie standing on his head in a series. The 2010-11 Bruins were. That's the difference right now.

I also think you're overrating just how tight defensively this team is. Good teams are getting good scoring chances against them all game long. Look at the Penguins against Khudobin.

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03-28-2013, 12:44 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
You keep doing this. You're telling me you understand 1=1 and then you give me a situation where 1=2.

You're saying that Rask HAS to allow a soft goal. So working on that premise.

Game 1. Rask allows a soft goal in period 1. They fail to score in regulation. Bruins lose 1-0.

Game 2. Rask doesn't allow a soft goal in regulation. Game goes to OT 0-0. Rask allows a soft goal in OT. Bruins lose 1-0.

How is that different? In the 2nd (in your opinion less clutch Rask game), he gave them 60 minutes to score 1 goal and WIN. In the first game, they need 1 goal to TIE and a SECOND goal to WIN.

Very easy concept. You're wrong.
no you are wrong. in sports 1 + 1 does not equal 2. you have momentem and everything else to consider as others are saying it is not black and white. why do you discount the other factors.

we all know a goal at anythime is equal to another goal on the scoreboard but there are other factors involved that you refuse to admit.

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03-28-2013, 12:46 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
They also posted a different stat that the Bruins scored something like a Goal per period more in the 3rd periods they led with Thomas. That makes a huge difference.
why does a goal per perid in the 3rd period matter more then a goal per period more in the 1st period. why would you even use that state if timing means nothing. yet here you are saying it makes a huge difference.

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03-28-2013, 12:47 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
The same Thomas who allowed the Walker and Ward goals? Yes, we forget, Thomas wasn't clutch until he was, and that wasn't until his mid 30's.

So yeah, I'm as confident, because I think they have the same ability.
differnce is one has done it the other has not.


major difference

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03-28-2013, 12:47 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
why does a goal per perid in the 3rd period matter more then a goal per period more in the 1st period. why would you even use that state if timing means nothing. yet here you are saying it makes a huge difference.
Where did I say anything about timing? I didn't. Nice attempt though.

All it means is on average. The Bruins scored an additional 3rd period goal in the games Thomas won.

So for example. In the average game where the Bruins led 3-2 going into the 3rd period. With Thomas, they'd end up with 5, with Rask 4. That has nothing to do with timing, it has to do with more/less.

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03-28-2013, 12:48 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by MarchandNoseBest View Post
Different person but one with similar views, my answer: no.

Why? Because he's not as good of a goalie as Thomas is. Thomas was THE best goalie in the NHL or at worst, 2nd to Lundqvist. Rask is "just" in the top 5-10 range for now. Which means I'm quite confident in him, just not quite as confident as I was in Thomas.

Has nothing to do with Tuukka being a choker, though. I've heard that plenty of times about Tim Thomas over the years and he went on to have one of the most dominant post-season runs of all-time. Also heard it about Chara with that cute little game 7 losing streak stat for a while, until we set a record for most game 7 wins in a post-season. And remember Lucic the playoff God his first couple years? Now he's a big choker, it turns out. Who knew things changed so quickly?
but based on the stats the bold is not true. Tuukkas numbers are as good as Timmy's so why are you more confident with one then the other?

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03-28-2013, 12:49 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
no you are wrong. in sports 1 + 1 does not equal 2. you have momentem and everything else to consider as others are saying it is not black and white. why do you discount the other factors.

we all know a goal at anythime is equal to another goal on the scoreboard but there are other factors involved that you refuse to admit.
No, 1+1 = 2 everywhere, as much as you'd like it not to.

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03-28-2013, 12:50 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I guess I'm harder on goalies than most, (which is kind of odd because I was one). Or maybe it's not that I'm harder on them, but that I expect more from an "elite" goalie. Maybe I expect too much... but here's the problem as I see it...


Since when is "not his fault" an acceptable standard of play? People expect Krejci to be great every night and kill him when he's not. People expect Seguin to bring them out of their seats every night, and when he doesn't they say something's wrong with him.

To me, "was it his fault?" is setting the bar too low. That's what you say about backups, not guys who are supposed to be elite players in the league.

Do the Rangers expect Lundqvist to just stop the easy ones? Or do they expect him to be a difference maker by making the difficult save at critical times?

Tips and deflections are not unstoppable.
Breakaways and odd man rushes are not unstoppable.
They are high degree-of-difficulty saves, but we see goalies making these stops every week.

If Rask was able to make the save on that 2on1 last night or stop that deflection it would have been a great save. But what's wrong with asking for a little greatness?

Rask is in line to become one of the highest paid players on the team, should they not expect a player tying up that much cap space to be great? To be a difference maker and stop the ones he shouldn't once in a while?

Very few teams are able to win the Cup without a goalie who stood on his head at some point. The 2010 Hawks come to mind. But look at Thomas in the 2011 playoffs. Look at Quick last year. Look at how many playoff MVP's are goalies. If it's true that your goalie has to be your best penalty killer, then it's also true that your goalie has to be your best player at crunch time.

I'm not saying Rask can't do it. Rask is already a very good goalie (and I think he has the potential to be the best in the league). He was great in the Buffalo series in 2010 and in the first half of the Philly series. He can and has made some of those 10 bell saves on breakaways/odd-man-rushes/and deflections this season and in the past. But IMHO, he hasn't made them consistently when the game has been on the line this year and that is part of the reason the B's are the worst team in the league at holding 3rd period leads. Certainly not the only reason, but one part of the equation.

It seems to me that, no matter how tight you are defensively, good teams are going to find a way to get a good scoring chance on you late in a close game. Thomas grew to be a difference maker in those moments, and I think Rask is still learning.
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03-28-2013, 12:50 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
differnce is one has done it the other has not.


major difference
One had 14 years to get it right, the other what, 4? Major difference.

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03-28-2013, 12:51 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr View Post
Bill, you are asking for him to make multiple saves last night that would go into a goalies career-defining top 10 list.

Very unreasonable, IMO.

Wouldn't it be easier to expect our D to not give up a dozen prime scoring opportunities every game, rather than expect our goalie to make Superman saves multiple times a game?
but there are about a dozen prime scoring chances in every game. so why is it unreasonable to expect a big save now and then but it is not unreasonable to expect the D to not allow prime scoring chances in a game.

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03-28-2013, 12:52 PM
  #161
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Bruins seriously deserved to win that one. Pucks bouncing off guys faces and sticks in the net or right to habs players. bull****e call on delay of game when he wasn't shooting it out he was deflecting a pass.

We had a couple of bounces go our way on Marchy's and bergy's goals. if you look at the box score as far as shoots and face off wins we dominated a lot. Rask played well overall I thought. We will meet them again this year and I rather get a lesson now rather than later.

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03-28-2013, 12:53 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
Where did I say anything about timing? I didn't. Nice attempt though.

All it means is on average. The Bruins scored an additional 3rd period goal in the games Thomas won.

So for example. In the average game where the Bruins led 3-2 going into the 3rd period. With Thomas, they'd end up with 5, with Rask 4. That has nothing to do with timing, it has to do with more/less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
They also posted a different stat that the Bruins scored something like a Goal per period more in the 3rd periods they led with Thomas. That makes a huge difference.
you said goals in 3rd periods.

last I checked 3rd periods are a time of the game different then 1st or 2nd periods.

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03-28-2013, 12:53 PM
  #163
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but based on the stats the bold is not true. Tuukkas numbers are as good as Timmy's so why are you more confident with one then the other?
2 reasons:
1.) Thomas did it over a larger sample size. As Rask gets more and more proven as his career goes on, he'll rise on my list.
2.) His stats are also not quite as good as Timmy's were at least not when Thomas was playing at the top of his game; Timmy had 2 .930+ SV% seasons while Tuukka hasn't had any yet. He's been close enough that he could get there, and he's been as good or better than Thomas in certain seasons, but Thomas peak seasons have been better than what Rask's have been so far.

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03-28-2013, 12:53 PM
  #164
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Sometimes I see Rask being off to one side which does not allow pucks he does not see or deflected to hit him. It could be the camera angles too, I don't know.
I voted for 'bad luck', but would add 'bad karma that could not be overcome'.

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03-28-2013, 12:53 PM
  #165
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No, 1+1 = 2 everywhere, as much as you'd like it not to.
incorrect

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03-28-2013, 12:54 PM
  #166
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One had 14 years to get it right, the other what, 4? Major difference.
you are right and no one is saying he Can't what we are saying is as of yet he has not.

see the difference.

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03-28-2013, 12:55 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
No, the standard should be, are you performing amongst the best in the league, which he is.

The problem with the Bruins right now, is they may not be good enough the way their skaters are constituted, to take advantage of a goalie standing on his head in a series. The 2010-11 Bruins were. That's the difference right now.

I also think you're overrating just how tight defensively this team is. Good teams are getting good scoring chances against them all game long. Look at the Penguins against Khudobin.
Have to agree with this, especially the bit about being tight defensively. This team is not, especially right now. Hamilton makes bonehead defensive play after bonehead defensive play (how this escapes peoples attention I do not know but wouldn't be at all surprised to see him sat in the playoffs due to his inexperience). Krug made multiple mistakes in coverage last night, Bartkowski did as well when he played, Johnson isn't exactly the most solid bottom pairing guy out there.

That's not really an indictment either, Bruins have had a rough go with injuries and recoveries on the back-end. Of course Hamilton is going to be very very green, he's a rookie playing his first bit of pro hockey.

If you bank everything on goalies, and pine for Thomas, now might be a good time to remember that in Thomas' 7 year NHL career he only made it out of the 2nd round round once with this team (losing 3 game 7's in the process).

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03-28-2013, 12:56 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
you said goals in 3rd periods.

last I checked 3rd periods are a time of the game different then 1st or 2nd periods.
Um...because the comment I quoted was about 3rd period leads blown?

So for example.

Bruins with Thomas enter the 3rd period up 3-2. Bruins score two, opponent scores 2. Bruins win 5-4.

Bruins with Rask enter the 3rd period up 3-2. Bruins score one, opponent scores 2. Game goes to OT.

Thomas and Rask make the same number of "key saves" in both scenarios, forwards don't score same number of "key goals" in both scenarios, yet people ascribe the difference in record to Thomas > Rask.

They aren't the only variable that has changed.

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03-28-2013, 12:57 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by MarchandNoseBest View Post
2 reasons:
1.) Thomas did it over a larger sample size. As Rask gets more and more proven as his career goes on, he'll rise on my list.
2.) His stats are also not quite as good as Timmy's were at least not when Thomas was playing at the top of his game; Timmy had 2 .930+ SV% seasons while Tuukka hasn't had any yet. He's been close enough that he could get there, and he's been as good or better than Thomas in certain seasons, but Thomas peak seasons have been better than what Rask's have been so far.
1. agree with you 100%. right now I don't have the confidence in him because he has not done it yet. I do believe he has the ability to do it though.

2. Tuukka's stats are close to on par with Tim but yes you are right Tim's were better as he set the NHL record.

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03-28-2013, 12:58 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
Um...because the comment I quoted was about 3rd period leads blown?

So for example.

Bruins with Thomas enter the 3rd period up 3-2. Bruins score two, opponent scores 2. Bruins win 5-4.

Bruins with Rask enter the 3rd period up 3-2. Bruins score one, opponent scores 2. Game goes to OT.

Thomas and Rask make the same number of "key saves" in both scenarios, forwards don't score same number of "key goals" in both scenarios, yet people ascribe the difference in record to Thomas > Rask.

They aren't the only variable that has changed.
but the point is if timing means nothing to a goal why are you arguing stats related to timing of goals.

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03-28-2013, 12:59 PM
  #171
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forget it I am done. you believe a goal is a goal and timing does not matter.

I disagree timing of goals are a major factor.

agree to disagree.

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03-28-2013, 01:03 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
but the point is if timing means nothing to a goal why are you arguing stats related to timing of goals.
Um...again. I quoted a person who said there's something to to the fact that with Rask they're blowing 3rd period leads that they didn't with Thomas. I'm not saying those goals were clutchier or timlier or whatever you think I'm saying they are, I'm simply saying, there are more of them so the results were better. Hockey is a team game you know and I'm assuming most here would agree that the skaters have been better in prior years. I think that has much more to do with why we're blowing 3rd period leads than the lack of "timely" saves.

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03-28-2013, 01:04 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr View Post
Bill, you are asking for him to make multiple saves last night that would go into a goalies career-defining top 10 list.

Very unreasonable, IMO.

Wouldn't it be easier to expect our D to not give up a dozen prime scoring opportunities every game, rather than expect our goalie to make Superman saves multiple times a game?
I think that's overstating things a bit. Carey Price had a similar stop on Brad Marchand and I don't see anyone handing him a lifetime achievement award for it. He read pass, got a good push and made a great save.

In all of these third period collapses, were there no reasonable opportunities for a great save to preserve the lead/win?

All that said, I don't disagree that they need to be tighter defensively. I said in the past that I'd rather see them add a defenseman than Iginla. The D we have can be better too. But I don't believe you can eliminate all good scoring chances. No matter how tight you are, good teams are going to find a way to test your goalie late in games.

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03-28-2013, 01:06 PM
  #174
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Have to agree with this, especially the bit about being tight defensively. This team is not, especially right now. Hamilton makes bonehead defensive play after bonehead defensive play (how this escapes peoples attention I do not know but wouldn't be at all surprised to see him sat in the playoffs due to his inexperience). Krug made multiple mistakes in coverage last night, Bartkowski did as well when he played, Johnson isn't exactly the most solid bottom pairing guy out there.

That's not really an indictment either, Bruins have had a rough go with injuries and recoveries on the back-end. Of course Hamilton is going to be very very green, he's a rookie playing his first bit of pro hockey.

If you bank everything on goalies, and pine for Thomas, now might be a good time to remember that in Thomas' 7 year NHL career he only made it out of the 2nd round round once with this team (losing 3 game 7's in the process).
You're absolutely right, people are harping on the timing of Rask's saves, but the reality of it is, there's a lot happening out there, and Rask isn't really one of the things.

1. Our defensive personnel was always thin (I think we're two deep in terms of outstanding guys in our own end) and now it's worse.

2. Our forwards are also now very thin. Where we used to be able to wear teams down all game long, the opposite is happening. We're over relying on the Bergeron line and Chara/Seids, and they're not as effective later in the game.

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03-28-2013, 01:10 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I think that's overstating things a bit. Carey Price had a similar stop on Brad Marchand and I don't see anyone handing him a lifetime achievement award for it. He read pass, got a good push and made a great save.

In all of these third period collapses, were there no reasonable opportunities for a great save to preserve the lead/win?

All that said, I don't disagree that they need to be tighter defensively. I said in the past that I'd rather see them add a defenseman than Iginla. The D we have can be better too. But I don't believe you can eliminate all good scoring chances. No matter how tight you are, good teams are going to find a way to test your goalie late in games.
1. If he made some great saves early, how many great saves do you expect him to make?

2. We're looking at their losses. I don't think that's fair. They already have one of the better records in the league, and they have problems goal scoring. I don't think people are giving him enough credit for the games they've won as well.

It's a bad sign (not for Rask, but the team) that they're losing the games he doesn't play well, because I can't think of any games they've won where they've done that. He's picked the team up quite a few times this year, the opposite hasn't happened once.

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