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Umberger vs. Canucks

View Poll Results: Who is right in the contract struggle?
Umberger 9 15.25%
Canuck Management 28 47.46%
In between 22 37.29%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-24-2003, 01:25 PM
  #1
Waveburner
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Umberger vs. Canucks

Given the sheer number of articles reporting this now, I think it is safe to assume that the Canucks have offered Umberger less than what they offered Kesler. Anywhere from 10-20% less. I know the Canucks feel that Kesler>Umberger, but is that the benchmark? Or is it Umberger's draft class that should dictate his contract? Players selected just before and after Umberger have received the rookie max.

So who is right? The Canucks for offering less than Kesler, R.J. for demanding the rookie max, or is it somewhere between? Figured I'd give that option for my fellow fence-sitters :p

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09-24-2003, 01:33 PM
  #2
Nalyd Psycho
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Umberger is in the right, but he's in the wrong because the right is wrong.

The precident set by other teams is that he should get the rookie max. But that precident is wrong.

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09-24-2003, 01:35 PM
  #3
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I think it's in between. UMberger is asking too much but what the Canucks are offering him is too low.

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Old
09-24-2003, 01:52 PM
  #4
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He wants to get paid more than Cooke? naa I don't think so.

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09-24-2003, 02:24 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrisweb
He wants to get paid more than Cooke? naa I don't think so.
Kesler makes more than Cooke. So do the Sedin's and Allen. 1rst rounders get high contracts. Cooke's contract is in no way related to this discussion. At all.

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09-24-2003, 04:56 PM
  #6
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i'd also say in the middle. Umberger should not be recieving rookie max, and since they say the figure is 300k apart, it would mean the Canucks are offering 900k.

since Hemsky (drafted higher in the same year and is more NHL ready) is making 1.1, i would say there is no way Umberger should be making rookie max... more like an even million

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09-24-2003, 06:48 PM
  #7
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Umberger should just sign a 2-way deal. If he makes the big club, great, pay him 1.2 million. If he gets cut? he can make 250k with the Moose.

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09-24-2003, 07:32 PM
  #8
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I don't know why Kessler would deserve more than RJ. He was the leader on the Ohio team and mentored Kessler last year. He outscored Kesler by a significant margin, improved every year that he was in college, was THE leader of the team, was an all-american, and in the running for the Hobey Baker.

Imagine having to take like 300k or so less than a kid 2 years younger, whom you were mentoring, with less skill. Anyone with any competitive juice or pride AT ALL, will be PISSED OFF.

I really hope Burke can't do the deal with RJ and he walks at the end of the year. Then the fans will be all over him for losing a 1st rounder for nothing.

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Old
09-24-2003, 07:40 PM
  #9
Peter Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFABoy
I don't know why Kessler would deserve more than RJ.
Because Kesler appears to be a lot more NHL ready than Umberger. Kesler has a shot at seeing some NHL action this year while Umberger could very well spend the entire season in Manitoba(if he's signed). Kesler's game is suited to the NHL right now, while Umberger appears to have some work ahead of him.

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Old
09-24-2003, 09:43 PM
  #10
PecaFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Because Kesler appears to be a lot more NHL ready than Umberger. Kesler has a shot at seeing some NHL action this year while Umberger could very well spend the entire season in Manitoba(if he's signed). Kesler's game is suited to the NHL right now, while Umberger appears to have some work ahead of him.
But how do we know that? At this point in their careers, playing at exactly the same level competition, Umberger has achieved more. Maybe if Umberger had been signed and been at camp, we'd all be raving about him too.

It appears to be all about expectations, myself. Kesler won't score at the NHL level, but we don't *expect* him to ever do so, so therefore he's "ready". Umberger won't score at the NHL level either, but because we hope he will one day, therefore he's "not ready".

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09-24-2003, 10:30 PM
  #11
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On SportsNetNews today, Umberger's agent Brian Lawton described negotiations as "hopeless".

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09-24-2003, 11:06 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
But how do we know that? At this point in their careers, playing at exactly the same level competition, Umberger has achieved more. Maybe if Umberger had been signed and been at camp, we'd all be raving about him too.

It appears to be all about expectations, myself. Kesler won't score at the NHL level, but we don't *expect* him to ever do so, so therefore he's "ready". Umberger won't score at the NHL level either, but because we hope he will one day, therefore he's "not ready".
Kesler is supposed to be much better defensively.

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09-24-2003, 11:10 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Because Kesler appears to be a lot more NHL ready than Umberger. Kesler has a shot at seeing some NHL action this year while Umberger could very well spend the entire season in Manitoba(if he's signed). Kesler's game is suited to the NHL right now, while Umberger appears to have some work ahead of him.




i don't want to take sides in this dispute because i think both sides are to blame for the current situation. Whether they are more NHL ready should have no impact on the salary since rookie contract is usually two ways contract, so if Umberger cannot make the team he be making minor league salary.

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09-25-2003, 12:48 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFABoy
I really hope Burke can't do the deal with RJ and he walks at the end of the year. Then the fans will be all over him for losing a 1st rounder for nothing.
There's the mark of a fan, you want to lose one of our only offensively gifted forward prospects so that our GM can learn his lesson...

The rookie cap max for those drafted in 2001 is $1.13 million US. If they're now $300k apart, that means the Canucks have offered him around $830k. If I remember it right, the number drifting around for Kesler's salary (if he plays in the bigs) is around $800k. Looks like Burke tried to get Umberger at a cheaper deal, recognized it was much too low, and offered RJ at least as much as Kesler (who many have said is more NHL ready, and is 2 years younger). Keep in mind Kesler was drafted 2 years after Umberger, and so his salary in relation to his year's rookie max is lower than RJ's would be if he signed for the same dollar amount.

I think they're close enough now that a deal will be done. It's in both parties' best interests for him to play this year in Vancouver's system.

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Old
09-25-2003, 12:57 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
But how do we know that? At this point in their careers, playing at exactly the same level competition, Umberger has achieved more. Maybe if Umberger had been signed and been at camp, we'd all be raving about him too.
Maybe we would, but he wasn't at camp, and therefore nobody's seen him. I'm having trouble understanding why he wasn't at camp, did the Canucks not invite him while he wasn't under contract? If he had been at camp (assuming he thinks he can wow people) then he'd have more leverage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
It appears to be all about expectations, myself. Kesler won't score at the NHL level, but we don't *expect* him to ever do so, so therefore he's "ready". Umberger won't score at the NHL level either, but because we hope he will one day, therefore he's "not ready".
The difference here is that neither RJ's offensive game nor his defensive game seems to be at an NHL level yet, going on what has been said by Burke and Crawford (prior to negotiations and now).
Umberger: 0 for 2

Kesler on the other hand, apparently has his defensive game already at an NHL level, while his offensive game is not. While I don't expect as much offense from Kesler as from Umberger, from what I've read/heard/seen Kesler definitely has some offensive abilities and should be able to pot his share in the NHL.
Kesler: 1 for 2
(with his NHL-ready dimension being the more important to his projected role)

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09-25-2003, 06:59 AM
  #16
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RJ couldn't attend training camp or rookie camp because he didn't have a contract and would have to pay his own way. I don't even think NCAA players are allowed in training camps without a contract but he could've attended rookie camp if he was willing to pay his way. Someone mentioned above that Kesler is better defensively, the same argument goes the other way that Umberger is better offensively.

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09-25-2003, 07:20 AM
  #17
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Sportsnet Pacific reported last night that Kesler is receiving $825K. Offering RJ less is an insult. Burke risks losing the guy over MacCaw's pocket change! :mad:

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09-25-2003, 07:34 AM
  #18
Peter Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
But how do we know that? At this point in their careers, playing at exactly the same level competition, Umberger has achieved more. Maybe if Umberger had been signed and been at camp, we'd all be raving about him too.

It appears to be all about expectations, myself. Kesler won't score at the NHL level, but we don't *expect* him to ever do so, so therefore he's "ready". Umberger won't score at the NHL level either, but because we hope he will one day, therefore he's "not ready".
Kesler is said to be a lot harder worker and much better defensively. If either Umberger or Kesler make the club, it would be as a 3rd/4th liner, a role that Kesler is slated to fill in the future. With Umberger's supposed poor defense and inconsistency, playing him in a bottom 6 role doesn't help his development much, leading to the fact that him making the big club is less likely that Kesler who would likely thrive in a bottom 6 role.

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09-25-2003, 07:36 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C'nuckleHead
Sportsnet Pacific reported last night that Kesler is receiving $825K. Offering RJ less is an insult. Burke risks losing the guy over MacCaw's pocket change! :mad:
Do you know if Umberger is still supposedly asking for a one-way deal?

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09-25-2003, 07:54 AM
  #20
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From what I have seen, he is being offered less than what Kesler received. He should at least get a similar contract.

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09-25-2003, 08:13 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Do you know if Umberger is still supposedly asking for a one-way deal?
Christ, for the last time, RJ UMBERGER CANNOT SIGN A ONE-WAY DEAL. THE CBA STIPULATES THAT ALL ROOKIE CONTRACTS ARE TWO-WAY.

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09-25-2003, 08:35 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Christ, for the last time, RJ UMBERGER CANNOT SIGN A ONE-WAY DEAL. THE CBA STIPULATES THAT ALL ROOKIE CONTRACTS ARE TWO-WAY.
Thanks.

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09-25-2003, 09:24 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Thanks.
np

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Old
09-25-2003, 08:51 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Kesler is said to be a lot harder worker and much better defensively. If either Umberger or Kesler make the club, it would be as a 3rd/4th liner, a role that Kesler is slated to fill in the future. With Umberger's supposed poor defense and inconsistency, playing him in a bottom 6 role doesn't help his development much, leading to the fact that him making the big club is less likely that Kesler who would likely thrive in a bottom 6 role.
So what if he's more defensively ready - you can teach defense but can't teach offense - we have enough 3rd and 4th line grinders .... May , Arvedson, Cooke, Chubarov, Ruutu, Linden, Lindgren. Guys like that are a dime a dozen - ie you can trade for one of those guys for a 3rd or 4th rounder.

If Kesler was offered 800k or something , and Umberger was asking for the same as Kesler, that means Burke is only offering him 500-600k which is absolutely an insult to a more skilled higher drafted prospect who was the clearly better than Kesler last year in college.

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