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04-20-2005, 10:44 AM
  #51
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It's not necessarily about safe vs risky. It's about finding the types of players that Sutter thinks will help a team to win. And personally if there are any questions about softness, adapting to the North American style, physical play, consistency, intensity, heart then I'd rather take a pass. You don't have to draft a sexy European type prospect to get skill and talent. Not every North American is another Eric Nystrom or a 3rd liner. Your generalizations don't make much sense.

Let's be realistic here, Sutter is not going to draft a Kovalev type of player (not saying Kopitar is or not, I haven't seen him.) I'd be surprised if he took a European playing in Europe with our 1st rounder. I just don't see that as being very likely. Plenty of talented and skilled kids in the CHL that we are far more likely to covet. There's less risk involved IMO but you aren't necessarily sacrificing upside. I mean we are more likely to take a gritty Finn than a one-dimensional Czech, Russian, etc but overall I would not put money on us taking a Euro.

We've picked a grand total of 2 European based Europeans (and both Ramholt and Wikner were noted for being more physical than your average Euro) in the last two drafts. Expect that trend to continue.


Last edited by Flames Draft Watcher: 04-20-2005 at 11:43 AM.
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04-20-2005, 10:46 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calgarylen13
...Safe picks...why does it always have to be about drafting a good 3rd liner who won't ever score more than 15 goals in the modern game? If we want a talented player who has the potential to light up our team, the Kopitar is the man...everyone is constantly complaining about our lack of scoring depth and need of another 1st/2nd line scorer...then it comes to the draft and everyone is looking for a "safe pick". And you also mention better fits for the Flames...shall we draft another defenceman? Shall we draft another Eric Nystrom (a highly touted safe pick who seems unlikely to make an impact in the NHL as a scorer). We need to take risks in this sport if we want to get anywhere, and Kopitar is the right risk to take.

I wasn't the one who said he was a "Sutter type" player, but fact is at the end of the day, a team of Sutter players leaves for little flexibility. Sure it has proven successful in getting us far into th eplayoffs, but that one step we were away from the cup was an ability to score. And we cannot always rely on the Gelinas', etc.'s to score as much due to age. Its time we took a risk on a guy who will likely turn out a great player.

Skating can always be learnt and using size is always something which can develop with age. What one has to remember is coming from a country where hockey isn't so prominent, as Slovenija his skating abilities will never be up to the speed of Canadians who have been born skating. That said, the law of diminuitve return suggests that when he is at an acceptable standard, there are little and fewer improvements to make. So sure, give him a while to learn to improve his skating, but once he has, he will be a phenomenon.

I guess we'll see who gets chosen, but i'd be sad if we didn't get him and he is available, because its one decision we will live to regret (just as passing up Brodeur to get Trevor Kidd)

I am so sick of hearing this Sutter type player B.S.

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04-20-2005, 10:53 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by calgarylen13
We need to take risks in this sport if we want to get anywhere, and Kopitar is the right risk to take.

I wasn't the one who said he was a "Sutter type" player, but fact is at the end of the day, a team of Sutter players leaves for little flexibility.
Wow, you make a lot of questionable points IMO.

We NEED to take risks to get anywhere? What, risks like Jesper Mattason and Niklas Sundblad? Or risks like Daniel Tkaczuk and Rico Fata? The bottom line is we need NHLers from our 1st round picks. We don't need to take unnecessary risks. So what you're saying is that you'd rather roll the dice on a riskier prospect that has a higher chance of busting then take the player the Flames scouts believe has the highest chance of playing and making an impact. I dunno.

A team of Sutter players leaves for little flexibility? What kind of garbage is that? Sutter has shown he likes to acquire players that can play in a variety of roles, flexible players as it were. Players that can on multiple lines, players that can play in multiple positions.

Are you trying to insinuate that Sutter doesn't like skill? That guys like Sakic and Pronger aren't Sutter type players? Because that's a load of you know what...

How do you explain the Reinprecht acquisition? He's not an Eric Nystrom type and yet obviously is a "Sutter" player despite being fairly non-physical and a pure skill guy. Are you suggesting he contributes to our team of unflexible Sutter types?

We aren't going to take one-dimensional players, players who can only play when the puck is on their stick. Sutter has indicated we have a bias towards the WHL. That doesn't mean we take guys who aren't skilled. But it does mean that physical play, consistency, heart, drive and determination are VERY important attributes. I'm no Kopitar expert but I wouldn't bet on him being our 1st rounder, that's for sure. Several skilled guys in the WHL (Brule, Setoguchi, McArdle) are probably more likely. I'm not going to rule out Kopitar, our scouts may in fact like him and think he can be molded into a player but the safer bet would be to assume we'll take a North American.


Last edited by Flames Draft Watcher: 04-20-2005 at 11:46 AM.
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04-20-2005, 02:04 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saillias
I am so sick of hearing this Sutter type player B.S.
You must really miss having Al Coates as a GM then!


The "Sutter-type" reference may seem overused, but that's only because it is a REALITY for this team. Sutter will not draft a player he doesn't have confidence in, and his scouts won't be bringing any guys to the table that they know Sutter will not want because they want to keep their jobs. So if you're thinking that the Flames will just roll the dice with the blindfolds on and throw caution to the wind, your in for continued dissapointment. And if you see the Sutter-type mold of player as "B.S.", well, I guess winning hockey games isn't a priority for you.

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04-20-2005, 02:09 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saillias
I am so sick of hearing this Sutter type player B.S.
Last time I checked Sutter types won the Western Conference. What's B.S. about them? Why would you be sick of them (assuming you are a Flames fan)?

Sutter has provided the best success this team has had in a long time. If you're going to question the makeup of his team and the kinds of players he likes you'd better put up a real argument.

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04-20-2005, 02:30 PM
  #56
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I am also a little puzzled about the comment that Nystrom will not have an impact at scoring at the NHL level. I can understand the doubts based on Nystrom's production at the NCAA level, but that's a pretty disciplined league made mostly up of 18-22 year olds (vs. 16-20 in the CHL).

For example, look at Adam Hall's production at the NCAA level:

1998-99 - 36GP 16G 7A 23PTS 74PIM
1999-00 - 40GP 26G 13A 39PTS 38PIM
2000-01 - 42GP 18G 12A 30PTS 42PIM
2001-02 - 41GP 19G 15A 34PTS 36PIM

Look familiar? Now Hall is being pegged as a potential powerfoward capable of 20-goals. Perhaps on the level with an Erik Cole.

Speaking of Erik Cole, lets look at his NCAA numbers!

1997-98 - 34GP 11G 20A 31PTS 55PIM
1998-99 - 36GP 22G 20A 42PTS 50PIM
1999-00 - 33GP 19G 11A 30PTS 46PIM

Pretty modest as well. And now he's broken 40PTS twice in three seasons and looks to be one of the few bright spots in the Canes system.

All I am saying is don't read into the NCAA statistics too much, it is not on the level with the CHL. Don't pass judgement before Nystrom even steps foot on NHL ice, either. Not saying he'll be a perennial 30-goal scorer or anything, but I don't see 20-goals as being out of his reach at the NHL level all while providing leadership and rock-solid defensive play, which is EXACTLY what we drafted him to do.

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04-20-2005, 02:57 PM
  #57
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Darryl Sutter drafts properly. He dosent go for flash and dazzle he takes a guy that will play 100% and he might not deke from end to end, but he will take his guy out and score goals. Sutter brought back offensive hockey to the Flames even though we are considered a top defensive team. All lines contributed. I don't know about this crap about Sutter hating Skill players and only getting crashers and bangers. Last time I checked Matthew Lombardi was our 2nd line centre, and key player on our team and future. Last time I checked Daymond Langkow was a high end skilled centre. So this crap about Sutter players being just a banger or a crasher needs to stop. Im happy we don;t have a team full of flashy soft europeans. Hockey is Physical we don't need a Alexi Kovalev, getting a tap on his hand and quitting during a playoff game, we don't need a fancy Vincent Lecalvier falling down, and acting like he got shot in the head when he got tapped by Nemo. We got a guy like Nilson who gets clubbed stiched up, and comes back out scores on the 3rd line.

Sutter will take offensive players, but they are Sutter players because they are either fast and big, or physical and play multiple roles, and contribute on any line.

We should be happy we have him, I couldnt of been more happy with what he has done for our team, and the way people feel about it. Not only do we not trap and play a quick tempo game, we are solid defensivley, under a strict budget, and we got screwed out of a Cup. He is a guy that draft Dion Phanuef when 8 teams passed on him, they are all kicking them selves in the head, after this guy has beat Crosby the next great one as they say as CHL player of the year twice. He picks up gems in later rounds like Boyd.

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04-20-2005, 05:43 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Brown
We should be happy we have him, I couldnt of been more happy with what he has done for our team, and the way people feel about it. Not only do we not trap and play a quick tempo game, we are solid defensivley, under a strict budget, and we got screwed out of a Cup. He is a guy that draft Dion Phanuef when 8 teams passed on him, they are all kicking them selves in the head, after this guy has beat Crosby the next great one as they say as CHL player of the year twice. He picks up gems in later rounds like Boyd.
Boyd is a prime example of why Darryl Sutter is a godsend for this team's future. Sutter is not the sum of his scouting team, nor is his scouting team the sum of themselves. I doubt there is anyone with more connections in the CHL than Darryl Sutter, and if there is, it's probably another Sutter. I am almost convinced that Boyd was an inside job. Guys like Brent Sutter have probably been watching this guy closely for a long while now, and if not him, then someone within the league tipped Brent off on Boyd. With Darryl Sutter being tapped directly into the CHL grapevine, he knew he had something with Boyd. So much so he was willing to trade down to acquire the pick needed to draft him. I'm a little puzzled as to why he took Prust before Boyd, perhaps he knew that only a few teams were even looking at him and could gamble a bit. Then this season Boyd's stock (much like Phaneuf's) just skyrockets.

I see people comparing Boyd to Lombardi, and I think of Boyd was a Lombardi in reverse. Boyd was a capable defensive center prior to his breakout junior year this year and has just started to find his offensive touch. Lombardi was very capable offensively from the get-go and had to learn how to play a two-way game in juniors.

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04-20-2005, 08:53 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by kolanos
And if you see the Sutter-type mold of player as "B.S.", well, I guess winning hockey games isn't a priority for you.
I've seen multiple hypothetical situations and trade proposals involving Crosby where people say "He isn't a Sutter type player" and write off the deal. That's what I don't like. I just want the team to go for some more offensive punch instead of drafting the safe guy, that's all.

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04-20-2005, 09:50 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by saillias
I've seen multiple hypothetical situations and trade proposals involving Crosby where people say "He isn't a Sutter type player" and write off the deal. That's what I don't like. I just want the team to go for some more offensive punch instead of drafting the safe guy, that's all.
He dosent take the safe pick. Kris Chucko? Hes not the safe pick. He is drafting offensive players, but they are not guys that fancy with the puck, they are guys that make that first pass out of the zone, guys that dont turnover the puck in the neutral zone, he gets smart gritty players that can all contribute. I rather have that then Sidney Crosby, a guy that will try to do it all and be knocked down by the big defenceman. He takes offensive players, but he dosent draft loosers like Schremp, he takes character players, the ones that might not score 50 goals in the season, but score 20-25 goals, and then contribute, and play well on defence when it counts in the playoffs.

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04-20-2005, 10:13 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Brown
He dosent take the safe pick. Kris Chucko? Hes not the safe pick. He is drafting offensive players, but they are not guys that fancy with the puck, they are guys that make that first pass out of the zone, guys that dont turnover the puck in the neutral zone, he gets smart gritty players that can all contribute. I rather have that then Sidney Crosby, a guy that will try to do it all and be knocked down by the big defenceman. He takes offensive players, but he dosent draft loosers like Schremp, he takes character players, the ones that might not score 50 goals in the season, but score 20-25 goals, and then contribute, and play well on defence when it counts in the playoffs.
What do you mean Chuko is NOT a safe pick? If you knew anything about Chuko before being drafted, you would quickly realize the guy loves to fight and check. If he can't find his offensive game for a top 6 role, he has the size, physical play and attitude to become an energy guy that pisses people off (IE - Clark or Wimer type player). That to me, shows that Chuko is a safe pick. He has the upside of a #2 line power forward or the bottom of a checker, who can chip in offensively at times.

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04-20-2005, 10:19 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Brown
He dosent take the safe pick. Kris Chucko? Hes not the safe pick. He is drafting offensive players, but they are not guys that fancy with the puck, they are guys that make that first pass out of the zone, guys that dont turnover the puck in the neutral zone, he gets smart gritty players that can all contribute. I rather have that then Sidney Crosby, a guy that will try to do it all and be knocked down by the big defenceman. He takes offensive players, but he dosent draft loosers like Schremp, he takes character players, the ones that might not score 50 goals in the season, but score 20-25 goals, and then contribute, and play well on defence when it counts in the playoffs.
I would take a team of 23 Sutter-types that never quit and fight tooth-and-nail to win a hockey game over one Sidney Crosby anyday. That's not to say I would not want Sidney Crosby on my team, I certainly would. Crosby is a franchise player in the making, he's about as pure an offensive talent that has ever laced skates and would help any team he is on. But he's only one player, and he cannot do it all alone, no matter how good he might be. Gretzky won championships with a great group around him. Not to take anything away from the Great One, but hockey is a team sport -- and Sutter builds TEAMS, that's the point. He drafts, and trades for players that play a team game, guys that are versatile and get it done every night, every shift.

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04-21-2005, 01:14 AM
  #63
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As for Sid Crosby not being a Sutter player, give me a break, Crosby plays hard, thats all thats necessary.

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04-21-2005, 09:55 AM
  #64
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Hes a liability on the defensive side. Sutter dosent like that.

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04-21-2005, 10:01 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Brown
Hes a liability on the defensive side. Sutter dosent like that.
Looks like you just stopped short of describing him as not a "Sutter-type player." For everybody who's used that expression, nobody knows exactly what is meant by it. Teemu Selanne could hardly be considered a "Sutter-type player" by what is often intimated by that tired expression.

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04-21-2005, 10:41 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by King_Brown
Hes a liability on the defensive side. Sutter dosent like that.
Wo cares if he cannot play defense...many of the guys drafted cannot play defense and have to learn. Look at Kobasew and Lombardi, the guys were not great defensively at all when drafted but SUtter has shown them how to take care of business in their own end. Do you think SUtter does not like either?

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04-21-2005, 11:23 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by King_Brown
Hes a liability on the defensive side. Sutter dosent like that.
What 17 year old isn't a liability on defence?

I love the "sutter type" mantra, but you're taking it to an extreme.

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04-21-2005, 12:37 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Wo cares if he cannot play defense...many of the guys drafted cannot play defense and have to learn. Look at Kobasew and Lombardi, the guys were not great defensively at all when drafted but SUtter has shown them how to take care of business in their own end. Do you think SUtter does not like either?
Him liking a player and him drafting a player can be two very different things. Sutter probably likes those two more now than he did when he first took over GM duties. Both have shown a willingness to learn, versus a guy like Korolyuk who was very stubborn.

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04-21-2005, 12:40 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saillias
I've seen multiple hypothetical situations and trade proposals involving Crosby where people say "He isn't a Sutter type player" and write off the deal. That's what I don't like. I just want the team to go for some more offensive punch instead of drafting the safe guy, that's all.
I understand. Well those people who said Crosby is not a Sutter player don't know what they're talking about.

Sutter not liking skill is a myth. He just wants skill to be combined with heart.

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04-21-2005, 12:41 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by King_Brown
Hes a liability on the defensive side. Sutter dosent like that.
Last time I checked "defense" can be taught by coaches. Skill, heart, determination, etc cannot.

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04-22-2005, 12:29 AM
  #71
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Crosby is overrated, hes what 5'9 and has strong legs and plays inthe midget leauge. Once he gets into the NHL he will not dominate like everyones seems to think he will. Hes got skills, but he is no Lemuix or Gretzky. He might be a consistent 70-80 pt players.

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04-22-2005, 10:26 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by King_Brown
Crosby is overrated, hes what 5'9 and has strong legs and plays inthe midget leauge. Once he gets into the NHL he will not dominate like everyones seems to think he will. Hes got skills, but he is no Lemuix or Gretzky. He might be a consistent 70-80 pt players.
You might want to check your facts.

Crosby plays in major junior, not midget. He's listed at 5'10 in most places but has as good core strength as anybody I've seen of his height. He'll be a star player in the NHL, he's the best junior aged player I've ever seen.

How many times have you seen him?

He may not be the next Lemieux but he's certainly not overrated.

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04-22-2005, 11:06 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
You might want to check your facts.

Crosby plays in major junior, not midget. He's listed at 5'10 in most places but has as good core strength as anybody I've seen of his height. He'll be a star player in the NHL, he's the best junior aged player I've ever seen.

How many times have you seen him?

He may not be the next Lemieux but he's certainly not overrated.
I've seen him play a few times, and I have had people who seen him live against the best juniour competition in the World Juniours that he is good, but not as great as he is made out to be. I know he plays in the QMJHL, its pretty much a overrated midget league.

I agree he will be a star player, just not as good as everyone seems to think he will be. I highly doubt hes gonna touch a Gretzky record.

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04-22-2005, 12:27 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by King_Brown
I've seen him play a few times, and I have had people who seen him live against the best juniour competition in the World Juniours that he is good, but not as great as he is made out to be. I know he plays in the QMJHL, its pretty much a overrated midget league.
When you were watching him at the World Juniors did you take into account that he's two years younger than most of the players there? That makes his performance that much more special. Players who stand out at an early age in the World Juniors like Gaborik, Spezza, Bouwmeester, etc tend to be quite successful. Crosby impressed me more than any of them did at the same age.

Your comments about the QMJHL are quite ignorant IMO.

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04-22-2005, 06:48 PM
  #75
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King brown, are you seriously saying you wouldn't draft Crosby at #1 cuz he's overrated??!!?!

If so, thank goodness you aren't part of the Flames scouting staff.

Crosby has the makings of a smaller version of peter forsberg

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