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Jovo deal

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Old
04-16-2005, 08:20 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by gobert
He already turned down a big long term deal in favour of a one year deal, leading most people to believe that he wants to try out the UFA market.
either that or he wanted to keep his negotiating leverage when Stevens retired. If he signed for a year, and then Stevens is gone, he might be able to get more money from Jersey on a deal... similarly if he signs for a year, and he has UFA status he has more options to increase his bargaining power... even if it is just to re-sign in Jersey in the end.

but I agree that he's interested enough to look at all his options before he decides where he'll play.

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04-16-2005, 08:56 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
"the franchise" player notion is not in any of the offers from the owners or the players, so I wouldn't get my hopes up. I think there is a very good chance he'll be in another city next season.
I read in the New York papers that it is being discussed along with many other possibilities. You can't afford him, not unless you move players, we can. After missing a whole year's salary, money will be an issue so, Vancouver shouldn't be expecting any bargins, plus he's been a Devil for 10 year's now, that has to mean something. I believe he'll be in New Jersey, and under a new CBA, $7 million will be generous.


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04-16-2005, 09:27 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE
I read in the New York papers that it is being discussed along with many other possibilities. You can't afford him, not unless you move players, we can. After missing a whole year's salary, money will be an issue so, Vancouver shouldn't be expecting any bargins, plus he's been a Devil for 10 year's now, that has to mean something. I believe he'll be in New Jersey, and under a new CBA, $7 million will be generous.
I would say 6-7 million will be the peak for a franchise player in the league. Nedis is a franchise player and many teams don't have a guy at this calibre and would make him their "unwritten" franchise player and offer him 7 million. I see many teams offering him 6-7 million under a new system and when a team is going to offer you 7 million and your old team cannot afford that much because of their current salary and the need to drop salary, 10 years means nothing when you can make an extra 2-3 million.

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04-16-2005, 09:41 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
I would say 6-7 million will be the peak for a franchise player in the league. Nedis is a franchise player and many teams don't have a guy at this calibre and would make him their "unwritten" franchise player and offer him 7 million. I see many teams offering him 6-7 million under a new system and when a team is going to offer you 7 million and your old team cannot afford that much because of their current salary and the need to drop salary, 10 years means nothing when you can make an extra 2-3 million.
Well, that's your take. First, I doubt that if they install the (Franchise Player) that it would pertain to a free agent player recently signed by a team, at least that's how it works in football. Second, if the Union gives in on a cap, there going to want concessions, an I read that one them could be to honor last seasons contracts and if any team is going to give Nieds the extra few million, it will be New Jersey. In Lou Lamoriello's mind, Stevens = Brodeaur = Niedermayer.

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04-17-2005, 11:59 PM
  #80
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Even though Jovanovski is awesome, I'd do the trade if Florida traded Jokinen for Jovanovski thus giving us a second line while deflating our salary.

We can then use that money to sign Neidermayer (imo we have a strong chance).

Naslund - Morrison - Bertuzzi
Sedin - Sedin - Jokinen
Cooke - Kesler - Linden
Ruutu - Chubarov - May

Neidermayer - Allen
Ohlund - Sopel
Salo - Malik

Cloutier
Auld

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04-18-2005, 12:02 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
Even though Jovanovski is awesome, I'd do the trade if Florida traded Jokinen for Jovanovski thus giving us a second line while deflating our salary.

We can then use that money to sign Neidermayer (imo we have a strong chance).

Naslund - Morrison - Bertuzzi
Sedin - Sedin - Jokinen
Cooke - Kesler - Linden
Ruutu - Chubarov - May

Neidermayer - Allen
Ohlund - Sopel
Salo - Malik

Cloutier
Auld
Jokinen is a center. Neither team would do this deal, I don't think. Keenan loves Jokinen, and he is just emerging. That defense is also very, very weak. It is big, but lacks guts that Jovo brings. To fill the 2nd line RW hole, there is no use making a new hole on D. Niedermayer is amazing, but he does not have what Jovo brings this team. I would not sign Niedermayer if it meant we had to deal Jovo.

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04-18-2005, 02:50 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by jtuzzi21
Jokinen is a center. Neither team would do this deal, I don't think. Keenan loves Jokinen, and he is just emerging. That defense is also very, very weak. It is big, but lacks guts that Jovo brings. To fill the 2nd line RW hole, there is no use making a new hole on D. Niedermayer is amazing, but he does not have what Jovo brings this team. I would not sign Niedermayer if it meant we had to deal Jovo.
Yep, Jovo is way better than the Norris trophy winner.

I understand that you're trying to say that we need a gutsy d-man like Jovo, but simply put, Niedermayer is better than Jovo, while playing a similar game. You get a chance to add Nieds and Jokinen while only losing Jovo, you take it.

That being said, I don't think that Jokinen is enough to land Jovo.

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04-18-2005, 02:57 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by jin
That being said, I don't think that Jokinen is enough to land Jovo.
I disagree.

Olli Jokinen has still not reached his full potential and is already an outstanding player. He can just do so many things for your hockey team that don't show up on the score sheet.

Jokinen for Jovanovski is extremely fair, in my opinion, and as a closet 'Cats fan, I would not make the deal myself. Having Jokinen-Weiss-Olesz down the middle is too intriguing.

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04-18-2005, 06:00 PM
  #84
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I wouldn't make that deal either as a canuck fan, but I agree it's a fair deal, if not in Florida's favour.

We simply need Jovo more than Jokinen... and even if we sign Niedermayer and deal Jovo, you need to get something in return that fits our needs. Either that or you replace Morrison with Jokinen and get a RW for Mo... but that doesn't make much sense to me to do.

Our lineup has a MAJOR hole on 2nd line RW right now. Our best option there is Cooke, who is easily better as a 3rd line LW (no knock on Cooke, that's just his game, and it's best to use our players in the roles they are most effective)... after that we have a gamble with King... Linden, Ruutu, or Keane (if he re-signs), along with Kesler (who can play both C and RW) are not suitable options for a top 6 role on a team that hopes to contend.

All other slots in our lineup are filled as they should be IMO (although I'd love to upgrade our goaltending!). When you're a team that is already at, over, or damn close to any realistic salary cap, it doesn't make sense to add a player to stack up a position that we're fine in (Morrison-Jokinen-Sedin-Chubarov-Kesler??), and not use that money to address a hole we have in the lineup (Bertuzzi-Cooke/King-Linden-Kesler/Ruutu).

If the canucks deal Jovo, IMO it'd have to upgrade a position that is near impossible to upgrade (#1 goalies, franchise type center), or to fill pressing need (RW) if you can replace him in defense... otherwise, it'd be stupid IMO to move him.

I like Jokinen... IMO he's a little overrated, but he's still a good player... just makes no sense to add him to our team, when there are holes elsewhere in the lineup.

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04-18-2005, 06:32 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I like Jokinen... IMO he's a little overrated, but he's still a good player... just makes no sense to add him to our team, when there are holes elsewhere in the lineup.
As a person who's views and opinions I respect, I would like to read your evaluation on a Jokinen vs. Morrison comparison.

Whom do you feel is the superior player and would fit better for the Canucks?

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04-18-2005, 07:00 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
As a person who's views and opinions I respect, I would like to read your evaluation on a Jokinen vs. Morrison comparison.

Whom do you feel is the superior player and would fit better for the Canucks?

Different questions.

First of all value. IMO Jokinen has more value than Morrison does. He's younger, further from UFA status, and just hitting his prime now. He's the better goal scorer, and if he isn't already, will soon be the more "impact" player.

Right now Morrison IMO is a better all around player, but it is close - and I could certainly understand the argument that Jokinen is better now. I like the things that Morrison brings to the table, which leads to who's the better fit on the canucks.

With Naslund and Bertuzzi, Morrison is the much better fit. Jokinen wouldn't make the line as good as it is with Morrison - and this is one of the areas he's very underrated in. Naslund and Bertuzzi need (unfortunately) a player that will cover the defense for them. Morrison's an excellent skater, with a good defensive game. He can keep up with the play offensively, and skate well enough to cover the back end as he often has to do. He's also a better playmaker than Jokinen is. Jokinen is a finisher, so is Naslund. Bertuzzi creates room, and can finish. Morrison is the "point guard" on that line. He's also proven - and I've argued this many times in the whole "Morrison is a leach" discussions - that he can elevate his offensive game when he doesn't have the top 2 with him.

Jokinen is a different type of player. I'd also be curious to see how he handles the playoffs. Morrison's ability to play well in the playoffs is a huge + for us.

Even if Morrison and Jokinen were both on the Canucks - as long as Naslund and Bert are our top wingers, Morrison will be the better center for them.

He's a given as far as chemistry goes. He brings what we need to the table. So unless you're getting a franchise replacement (which Jokinen isn't - very few players ever are!), or a guy who brings just what Morrison does, but better - then I wouldn't replace him.

btw.. thanks for the compliment.

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04-18-2005, 08:53 PM
  #87
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To the post above, what a bunch of bull about Olli not being good defensively. If he wasn't good enough defensively, he wouldn't be getting ANY PK time..yet somehow last year he was 6th on the Panthers for PK time and getting 2.38 minutes per game. The year before he was 3rd on the team for PK time. It is evident that he is imporving his defensive game, which isn't bad to start with either. If he was so 1 dimensional, he wouldn't be touching the PK time. Heck, Olli almost doubled Morrisons PK time last year and the year before that as well. I think this is the classic case of someone having very little insight in another player's game.

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04-18-2005, 09:02 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
To the post above, what a bunch of bull about Olli not being good defensively. If he wasn't good enough defensively, he wouldn't be getting ANY PK time..yet somehow last year he was 6th on the Panthers for PK time and getting 2.38 minutes per game. The year before he was 3rd on the team for PK time. It is evident that he is imporving his defensive game, which isn't bad to start with either. If he was so 1 dimensional, he wouldn't be touching the PK time. Heck, Olli almost doubled Morrisons PK time last year and the year before that as well. I think this is the classic case of someone having very little insight in another player's game.
actually it's more a case of someone not reading a post properly...

could you tell me exactly where I said that Jokinen is one dimensional, and that he's not good defensively??

I said that Morrison is better defensively... I don't think that's calling Jokinen one dimensional. If I said that Morrison is better defensively than Henrik Sedin (to use an example of another canuck so you don't think I'm bashing another player), it doesn't mean that Henrik isn't good defensively... just that he's not as good as Morrison.

And to say that Morrison is better suited to fit between Naslund and Bert isn't suggesting that Jokinen is one-dimensional - infact I did say that he would be soon, if he isn't already a more "impact" player than Morrison.

What I did say was that they played different games. And I've watched Jokinen play in about 10% of the number of games I've seen Morrison in over the years, so my knowledge of Jokinen could be totally off, but I don't see him as a player like Morrison, rather more of a finisher on his line, instead of the playmaker.

Is this wrong?? it's not to say he's worth less, or isn't as good a player in comparison (in fact I said that I perfer Morrison, but it's close and could go either way!!)...

So before commenting on how I said that he's " 1 dimensional" or "isn't good defensively", and I'm quoting you here - please find where in my post I said that???

As for looking at PK time, consider the icetime that Morrison gets overall, and how the team distributes their icetime... if Morrison could play more PK time, he would... but the team uses 3 PK lines, and Morrison is on the #1 unit as it is... this isn't a good reflection of how good a player is defensively, without looking at all the other factors (ie. who else is on the team to kill penalties... how good they actually play in that role, not just getting the ice time, etc).

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04-18-2005, 09:12 PM
  #89
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My concern is that yous aid Morrison would be the better fit between Naslund and Bertuzzi because of his defense. My counter is that Olli is solid defensively and his overall game keeps getting better. He has the size and physical contact Morrison will never have in his career. IMO, if you could do a Morrison for Olli straight up, not taking Olli would be a bad move. Olli would be a solid addition to the Canucks #1 line and add more size and goal scoring to the top line than Morrison could ever provide. I am not saying Morrison isn't good (cause he is solid) but the gap between Olli and Morrison is marginal at best and Olli keeps getting better, while Mo is pretty much tapped out.

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04-18-2005, 09:30 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
My concern is that yous aid Morrison would be the better fit between Naslund and Bertuzzi because of his defense. My counter is that Olli is solid defensively and his overall game keeps getting better. He has the size and physical contact Morrison will never have in his career. IMO, if you could do a Morrison for Olli straight up, not taking Olli would be a bad move. Olli would be a solid addition to the Canucks #1 line and add more size and goal scoring to the top line than Morrison could ever provide. I am not saying Morrison isn't good (cause he is solid) but the gap between Olli and Morrison is marginal at best and Olli keeps getting better, while Mo is pretty much tapped out.
Id make that deal in a heart-beat. If Florida wanted Morrison and a 1st round pikc Id still make the trade.

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04-18-2005, 10:44 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Id make that deal in a heart-beat. If Florida wanted Morrison and a 1st round pikc Id still make the trade.
This would generally be my opinion on the comparison as well, but was curious to see nuckfan in TO's comments.

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04-18-2005, 11:03 PM
  #92
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I personally think Jokinen would make a fine RW. That was the reason why I brought up that trade idea. Unlike guys like Modano or Draper, Jokinen doesn't have lightning speed so his physical bruising play might be better suited for the wings.

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04-19-2005, 12:33 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
Different questions.

First of all value. IMO Jokinen has more value than Morrison does. He's younger, further from UFA status, and just hitting his prime now. He's the better goal scorer, and if he isn't already, will soon be the more "impact" player.

Right now Morrison IMO is a better all around player, but it is close - and I could certainly understand the argument that Jokinen is better now. I like the things that Morrison brings to the table, which leads to who's the better fit on the canucks.

With Naslund and Bertuzzi, Morrison is the much better fit. Jokinen wouldn't make the line as good as it is with Morrison - and this is one of the areas he's very underrated in. Naslund and Bertuzzi need (unfortunately) a player that will cover the defense for them. Morrison's an excellent skater, with a good defensive game. He can keep up with the play offensively, and skate well enough to cover the back end as he often has to do. He's also a better playmaker than Jokinen is. Jokinen is a finisher, so is Naslund. Bertuzzi creates room, and can finish. Morrison is the "point guard" on that line. He's also proven - and I've argued this many times in the whole "Morrison is a leach" discussions - that he can elevate his offensive game when he doesn't have the top 2 with him.

Jokinen is a different type of player. I'd also be curious to see how he handles the playoffs. Morrison's ability to play well in the playoffs is a huge + for us.

Even if Morrison and Jokinen were both on the Canucks - as long as Naslund and Bert are our top wingers, Morrison will be the better center for them.

He's a given as far as chemistry goes. He brings what we need to the table. So unless you're getting a franchise replacement (which Jokinen isn't - very few players ever are!), or a guy who brings just what Morrison does, but better - then I wouldn't replace him.

btw.. thanks for the compliment.
As I was readin this post, I felt like I was thinkin the exact same thing before I read it. Jokinen between Bert and Nas would choke off some of their offense as he's not the playmaker Morrison is. I didn't read a single knock on either player, but rather a comparison of how they'd fit in as pieces overall. Jokinen is more of a finisher and needs a playmaker to help him, demonstrated by Kozlov in Olli's breakout year. Morrison is more the set-up man that makes Naslund and Bert look like gods at times. Complete different roles on the teams.

As for Jokinen playin wing, we've had this discussion numerous times in the Panthers' forum. I don't see Olli fitting on the wing from a mental stand point for him. He likes bein the go to guy, the leader, and the guy to get the puck. He does that to the best of his ability on the draw. Movin Olli outside will actually take away from his game imo, but in the past that's been a very lone opinion at times.

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04-19-2005, 12:37 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE
Forget Niedermayer. Lou will just pay him 7 million per like he was supposed to make and list him has our franchise player (Which I believe the Players Union will insist on). Not sure the nucks could do that if they sign him via free agency. So Scott should remain a Devil and I wouldn't be surprised to see his brother Rob playing along side him in New Jersey.
$7m is still $7m. If you make Neidermayer you franchise player then you have to squeeze Broduer under the cap or vice versa. So if the Nucks signed him they'd put Bertuzzi as the franchise player and put Scott under the regular cap (same as NJ with Brodeur-Neids).

Though I doubt the NHL agree to franchise player exemptions and it'll be every team for itself.

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04-19-2005, 12:49 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE
I read in the New York papers that it is being discussed along with many other possibilities. You can't afford him, not unless you move players, we can. After missing a whole year's salary, money will be an issue so, Vancouver shouldn't be expecting any bargins, plus he's been a Devil for 10 year's now, that has to mean something. I believe he'll be in New Jersey, and under a new CBA, $7 million will be generous.
Its nice that you read that in the NY papers, but it has been in any of the offers so far. I don't think the franchise player notion has even a snowball's chance of going through.

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04-19-2005, 01:27 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by jtuzzi21
Jokinen is a center. Neither team would do this deal, I don't think. Keenan loves Jokinen, and he is just emerging. That defense is also very, very weak. It is big, but lacks guts that Jovo brings. To fill the 2nd line RW hole, there is no use making a new hole on D. Niedermayer is amazing, but he does not have what Jovo brings this team. I would not sign Niedermayer if it meant we had to deal Jovo.
What are you talkin about - with Niedermayer over Jovo the D improves.

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04-19-2005, 01:28 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
What are you talkin about - with Niedermayer over Jovo the D improves.
Yes, but not in the way we want it to. We lost to Calgary because we lacked grit and toughness. Jovo IS grit and toughness. All I said was if getting Niedermayer meant we had to trade Jovo, its not worth spending the extra bucks and having to deal the Cop. I'd rather keep all 3 d-studs if we can...or just focus on getting a 2nd line RW.

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04-19-2005, 01:33 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by jtuzzi21
Yes, but not in the way we want it to. We lost to Calgary because we lacked grit and toughness. Jovo IS grit and toughness. All I said was if getting Niedermayer meant we had to trade Jovo, its not worth spending the extra bucks and having to deal the Cop. I'd rather keep all 3 d-studs if we can...or just focus on getting a 2nd line RW.
Oh, I know what you mean - Id prefer that the cop stays a Nuck' for life as well. But you cant say that the D is all of a sudden 'weak' when you substitute Jovanovski for silky smooth Niedermayer. I wouldn't move Jovanovski for Jokinen though, he's a center - something we dont need with Morrison, Hank, and Kesler shootin' up the ranks.

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04-19-2005, 05:58 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
As I was readin this post, I felt like I was thinkin the exact same thing before I read it. Jokinen between Bert and Nas would choke off some of their offense as he's not the playmaker Morrison is. I didn't read a single knock on either player, but rather a comparison of how they'd fit in as pieces overall. Jokinen is more of a finisher and needs a playmaker to help him, demonstrated by Kozlov in Olli's breakout year. Morrison is more the set-up man that makes Naslund and Bert look like gods at times. Complete different roles on the teams.

As for Jokinen playin wing, we've had this discussion numerous times in the Panthers' forum. I don't see Olli fitting on the wing from a mental stand point for him. He likes bein the go to guy, the leader, and the guy to get the puck. He does that to the best of his ability on the draw. Movin Olli outside will actually take away from his game imo, but in the past that's been a very lone opinion at times.
I'm glad someone who's seen Jokinen more than me, agrees with how I see the two players.

again this is no knock on Jokinen, and as I said he does have more value than Morrison... I just don't think our top line is as good - has as much chemistry overall - with Jokinen there instead of Mo.

And the canucks just aren't in that situation in the team's development to take a risk like that with their top line.

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04-19-2005, 11:47 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
My concern is that yous aid Morrison would be the better fit between Naslund and Bertuzzi because of his defense. My counter is that Olli is solid defensively and his overall game keeps getting better. He has the size and physical contact Morrison will never have in his career. IMO, if you could do a Morrison for Olli straight up, not taking Olli would be a bad move. Olli would be a solid addition to the Canucks #1 line and add more size and goal scoring to the top line than Morrison could ever provide. I am not saying Morrison isn't good (cause he is solid) but the gap between Olli and Morrison is marginal at best and Olli keeps getting better, while Mo is pretty much tapped out.
You're completely missing the point. Olli would be awesome in a 'Nucks uniform (either as our #2 center or as a RW for the Sedins) but he would not 'upgrade' our top line. Bertuzzi supplies plenty of size, Naslund and Bert provide plenty of goal scoring, what our top line needs is speed, defensive awareness and creative playmaking. We get that with Mo, we would not get that with Olli.

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