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Is Kovalchuk underrated?

View Poll Results: See thread title
Yes 24 30.38%
He's rated fairly IMO 48 60.76%
He's overrated actually, (specify why) 7 8.86%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-29-2013, 11:54 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by ecemleafs View Post
i find me wanting more out of him. hes got it all in comes of talent, physical ability and he plays a lot. hes gotta be near the top in terms of ice time among forwards and hes not even a PPG this year.
He is ahead of the next forward by about 3 or 4 minutes, but that is because he plays 2 minutes on every PP. He got hurt at the wrong time though. He and Loktionov were just starting to click really well.

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03-29-2013, 11:54 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ecemleafs View Post
i find me wanting more out of him. hes got it all in comes of talent, physical ability and he plays a lot. hes gotta be near the top in terms of ice time among forwards and hes not even a PPG this year.
This. The Devil's were my go to team when the Hawk's were in the basement. I was against his initial contract and I still am even though he has become a little better defensively. A lot of Devil's fans want to put him in the top of the league out of love for him and the team but to me he just either tries to do far more than he's capable of or just has his head in the clouds half of the time.

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03-29-2013, 11:56 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
This. The Devil's were my go to team when the Hawk's were in the basement. I was against his initial contract and I still am even though he has become a little better defensively. A lot of Devil's fans want to put him in the top of the league out of love for him and the team but to me he just either tries to do far more than he's capable of or just has his head in the clouds half of the time.
No, I put him in the top of the league because.. well..

last year he WAS very near the top of the league.

I'm honestly not sure how you can say he's not a top player in this league after last year. Two years ago, maybe.. last year? I mean.. what else do you want him to do?

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03-30-2013, 12:01 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
No, I put him in the top of the league because.. well..

last year he WAS very near the top of the league.

I'm honestly not sure how you can say he's not a top player in this league after last year. Two years ago, maybe.. last year? I mean.. what else do you want him to do?
Pretty simple, points over mistakes, team over stats. He just makes too many bad plays, doesn't steal the puck enough (or even try to much of the time), and he gets too much preference on his shot from the point, I don't know what percent he is at that shot but it has to be below 5% on the Power Play. We all know he has a killer shot but so does every penalty killer.

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03-30-2013, 12:02 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
I'm honestly not sure how you can say he's not a top player in this league after last year. Two years ago, maybe.. last year? I mean.. what else do you want him to do?
Do it for more than a season at a time.

Voted rated fairly.

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03-30-2013, 12:07 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Pretty simple, points over mistakes, team over stats. He just makes too many bad plays, doesn't steal the puck enough (or even try to much of the time), and he gets too much preference on his shot from the point, I don't know what percent he is at that shot but it has to be below 5% on the Power Play. We all know he has a killer shot but so does every penalty killer.
Eh, if you watch the Devils enough, you wouldn't be saying much of what you think is happening. I'll take him and his 120 turnovers any day over a forward in this league not named Crosby, Malkin or Stamkos. He makes much more good plays than bad plays, and LOL @ "every penalty killer" has a killer shot.. right..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Dancer View Post
Do it for more than a season at a time.

Voted rated fairly.
Well, if you want to take more than the last season into account.. it's not like Kovalchuk's career numbers are lacking in any regard

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03-30-2013, 12:11 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Eh, if you watch the Devils enough, you wouldn't be saying much of what you think is happening. I'll take him and his 120 turnovers any day over a forward in this league not named Crosby, Malkin or Stamkos. He makes much more good plays than bad plays, and LOL @ "every penalty killer" has a killer shot.. right..

Well, here's a little secret for ya, it's been a short season but Kovi has already had 39 giveaways in 32 games BEFORE his injury. How many other forwards with 27 points so far have thrown the puck away 39 times? There's more to this game than putting up points.

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03-30-2013, 12:18 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Well, here's a little secret for ya, it's been a short season but Kovi has already had 39 giveaways in 32 games BEFORE his injury. How many other forwards with 27 points so far have thrown the puck away 39 times?
How many of those 32 games have you actually watched?

He gives the puck away 1.2 times a game.. that's definitely going to kill the Devils forever. If he doesn't give up the puck that one time each game, they'd probably be undefeated at this point.. right?

You act as if every time he touches the puck, something bad happens and the other team scores.. when it happens on average once a game... and most of the time in the offensive zone. Big whoop.

Just to compare, BTW:
Kovalchuk: .048 giveaways per minute of ice time
Tavares: .043 giveaways per minute of ice time
Crosby: .037 giveaways per minute of ice time

All top 10 in giveaways this year.

So, in 1000 minutes of ice time (nearly 17 full games), Kovalchuk gives away the puck 11 more times than Crosby and 5 more times than Tavares.

11 more giveaways in 17 games is the difference between the best player in the world and the wholly overrated Kovalchuk?

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03-30-2013, 12:23 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
How many of those 32 games have you actually watched?

He gives the puck away 1.2 times a game.. that's definitely going to kill the Devils forever. If he doesn't give up the puck that one time each game, they'd probably be undefeated at this point.. right?

You act as if every time he touches the puck, something bad happens and the other team scores.. when it happens on average once a game... and most of the time in the offensive zone. Big whoop.

Just to compare, BTW:
Kovalchuk: .048 giveaways per minute of ice time
Tavares: .043 giveaways per minute of ice time
Crosby: .037 giveaways per minute of ice time

All top 10 in giveaways this year.

So, in 1000 minutes of ice time (nearly 17 full games), Kovalchuk gives away the puck 11 more times than Crosby and 5 more times than Tavares.

11 more giveaways in 17 games is the difference between the best player in the world and the wholly overrated Kovalchuk?
Oh no, the points, the takeaways, the +/- and the ice time are a big difference for Kovi when comparing him to Crosby. The two just shouldn't be compared. You do realize when you're a top point producer that +/- means more goals have been scored while you're on the ice than goals you've scored, right?

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03-30-2013, 12:27 AM
  #35
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"bigger liability than Kessel"

Last year:
120 giveaways for Kovy
82 giveaways for Kessel

1,881 TOI for Kovy
1,644 TOI for Kessel

.064 giveaways per min for Kovy
.050 giveaways per min for Kessel

A grand total of .014 more giveaways a minute. Pro-rated to Kessel's TOI (if they both played the same amount), that's a whopping 105 vs. 82 turnover differential.

23 more turnovers over the course of an 82 game season, when normalized for the disparity in TOI. Mind you, an extra .28 turnover per game.

The stats are nice but you have to consider that Kovalchuk plays with the puck on his stick more than most other forwards in the league.. so he's going to have more giveaways naturally. Combine that with him PLAYING more than any other forward in the league... and it's no surprise he leads the league in giveaways last year.

Not really sure how that extra .28 turnover per game really hurt his team last year.. I'd think his 83 points more than made up for it..

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03-30-2013, 12:29 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
"bigger liability than Kessel"

Last year:
120 giveaways for Kovy
82 giveaways for Kessel

1,881 TOI for Kovy
1,644 TOI for Kessel

.064 giveaways per min for Kovy
.050 giveaways per min for Kessel

A grand total of .014 more giveaways a minute. Pro-rated to Kessel's TOI (if they both played the same amount), that's a whopping 105 vs. 82 turnover differential.

23 more turnovers over the course of an 82 game season, when normalized for the disparity in TOI. Mind you, an extra .28 turnover per game.

The stats are nice but you have to consider that Kovalchuk plays with the puck on his stick more than most other forwards in the league.. so he's going to have more giveaways naturally. Combine that with him PLAYING more than any other forward in the league... and it's no surprise he leads the league in giveaways last year.

Not really sure how that extra .28 turnover per game really hurt his team last year.. I'd think his 83 points more than made up for it..
No, you have to consider that the time on ice difference is due to him averaging 4:55 a game on the power play and those giveaways are at even strength. So, your argument there is nil. He's still the worst in the league at giving the puck away and makes little effort to steal the puck back.

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03-30-2013, 12:32 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Oh no, the points, the takeaways, the +/- and the ice time are a big difference for Kovi when comparing him to Crosby. The two just shouldn't be compared. You do realize when you're a top point producer that +/- means more goals have been scored while you're on the ice than goals you've scored, right?
+/- is a garbage stat. Everyone knows that.

Relates more to team strength than individual strength. Take a look at last year's +/-.. all Boston Bruins on top, because they had the best defense last year.

Kovalchuk was a -9 last year.
Malkin was a +18.
Giroux? +6
Stamkos? +7
Kessel (the lesser liability, mind you)? -10.

That also includes 13 SHGA that Kovalchuk was on the ice for. If you want pure ES +/-, Kovy would have registered a plus rating last year.

If Kessel was on the ice for every single SHGA Toronto had last year.. he still wouldn't have been a plus rating.

So please, I'd like to see how he's a bigger liability than Kessel.. still waiting there.

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03-30-2013, 12:33 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
No, you have to consider that the time on ice difference is due to him averaging 4:55 a game on the power play and those giveaways are at even strength. So, your argument there is nil. He's still the worst in the league at giving the puck away and makes little effort to steal the puck back.
Why are those giveways at even strength?

You do realize a player can give the puck away on the powerplay, right?

And "little effort" ? Again, how many of the Devils games these past two seasons have you watched? You haven't answered that question yet..

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03-30-2013, 12:35 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
+/- is a garbage stat. Everyone knows that.

Relates more to team strength than individual strength. Take a look at last year's +/-.. all Boston Bruins on top, because they had the best defense last year.

Kovalchuk was a -9 last year.
Malkin was a +18.
Giroux? +6
Stamkos? +7
Kessel (the lesser liability, mind you)? -10.

That also includes 13 SHGA that Kovalchuk was on the ice for. If you want pure ES +/-, Kovy would have registered a plus rating last year.

If Kessel was on the ice for every single SHGA Toronto had last year.. he still wouldn't have been a plus rating.

So please, I'd like to see how he's a bigger liability than Kessel.. still waiting there.
That's simple, +/- is relative to the team you're on..the leafs were a -33 and the Devils were a + 19. And yes, Kovi was one of, if not the, worst forwards on the team.

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03-30-2013, 12:37 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Why are those giveways at even strength?

You do realize a player can give the puck away on the powerplay, right?

And "little effort" ? Again, how many of the Devils games these past two seasons have you watched? You haven't answered that question yet..
Yep, 10 takeaways in 32 games is **** for someone with his capabilities and when you man the point..GIVING the puck away is just sad..which he doesn't do very often. So yes...those have to mostly even strength giveaways.

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03-30-2013, 12:42 AM
  #41
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He's an amazing hockey player. Got it all, size, hands, insane shot, great skating and he's not afraid to get tough. The last couple of years he's become a quite responsible defensive player.

PPG thru his entire career and great with the NT.
he's good, but he's no Giroux

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03-30-2013, 12:43 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
That's simple, +/- is relative to the team you're on..the leafs were a -33 and the Devils were a + 19. And yes, Kovi was one of, if not the, worst forwards on the team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Yep, 10 takeaways in 32 games is **** for someone with his capabilities.
The Devils were actually -8 last year: http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...=plusMinusTeam

Now you're just getting absurd though Kovy must have been the worst forward to put up 80+ points in NHL history last year :laugh

I like how you keep dodging questions, so I'm just going to stockpile them here and maybe (probably not) you'll address them:

Why are those giveways at even strength?

You do realize a player can give the puck away on the powerplay, right?

How many of the Devils games these past two seasons have you watched?

So please, I'd like to see how he's a bigger liability than Kessel.. still waiting there.

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03-30-2013, 12:46 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Yep, 10 takeaways in 32 games is **** for someone with his capabilities and when you man the point..GIVING the puck away is just sad..which he doesn't do very often. So yes...those have to mostly even strength giveaways.
When you handle the puck at the point for a full 2 minutes, you end up losing the puck every now and then.

Case in point:
http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/scott_cullen/?id=372204
Kovy's ES giveaways = 80
Kovy had 104 total giveaways that year
so 24 giveaways on the PP/PK = 23% .. a decent chunk..

And this was also 2 years ago when Kovy didn't play the full 2 minutes every PP.

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03-30-2013, 12:47 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
The Devils were actually -8 last year: http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...=plusMinusTeam

Now you're just getting absurd though Kovy must have been the worst forward to put up 80+ points in NHL history last year :laugh

I like how you keep dodging questions, so I'm just going to stockpile them here and maybe (probably not) you'll address them:

Why are those giveways at even strength?

You do realize a player can give the puck away on the powerplay, right?

How many of the Devils games these past two seasons have you watched?

So please, I'd like to see how he's a bigger liability than Kessel.. still waiting there.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/standings.htm...d=nav-stn-conf

Says here the Devils ended with a +19.

And, if you're saying Kovi gave most of those pucks away while the team was on the power play that's even worse. Prove to me that he only gives the puck away on the power play. You do watch enough games to know that he plays the point right? You do realize that common sense would dictate throwing the puck away from the point leads to odd man opportunities, correct?

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03-30-2013, 12:49 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
When you handle the puck at the point for a full 2 minutes, you end up losing the puck every now and then.

Case in point:
http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/scott_cullen/?id=372204
Kovy's ES giveaways = 80
Kovy had 104 total giveaways that year
so 24 giveaways on the PP/PK = 23% .. a decent chunk..

And this was also 2 years ago when Kovy didn't play the full 2 minutes every PP.


And you have no problem with it, that's hilarious.

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03-30-2013, 12:49 AM
  #46
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Everyone knows how good Kovy is.

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03-30-2013, 12:55 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/standings.htm...d=nav-stn-conf

Says here the Devils ended with a +19.

And, if you're saying Kovi gave most of those pucks away while the team was on the power play that's even worse. Prove to me that he only gives the puck away on the power play. You do watch enough games to know that he plays the point right? You do realize that common sense would dictate throwing the puck away from the point leads to odd man opportunities, correct?
This must be your first time using NHL.com. The GD is different from +/- given it includes SO wins/losses, etc.

I never said he only gives the puck away on the PP, I said there is a decent chunk of giveaways from the PP given how much he plays it (and the statistics support that claim). Never said most either (I'm beginning to think you're not even reading my posts), I said roughly 24% as the statistics prove.

And uhh.. you do know that chipping the puck into the corner where possession is taken by the other team constitutes a giveaway..?

A giveaway is any play where a player's actions led to the other team gaining possession of the puck..

Quote:
Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post


And you have no problem with it, that's hilarious.
I have no problem with it if he's contributing offensively and defensively the way he has been... has not been an issue at all the past few years..

Anyways, one day I'll see answers:
Quote:
Why are those giveways at even strength?

You do realize a player can give the puck away on the powerplay, right?

How many of the Devils games these past two seasons have you watched?

So please, I'd like to see how he's a bigger liability than Kessel.. still waiting there.

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03-30-2013, 12:59 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Hate Chris Butler View Post
Everyone knows how good Kovy is.
This. Its Kovalchuk. He brings a lot to the table and he is rated just fine.

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03-30-2013, 01:02 AM
  #49
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Also hasn't been considered:

The way giveaways are counted vary significantly with different scorers at different arenas.

Oilers had 711 giveaways at home last year.. but only 285 at home. There shouldn't be a discrepancy that significant.

Devils don't have a significant discrepancy but point remains, the stat is fairly ambiguous in what may or may not be a turnover.. so it's kind of hard to use it in any form of argument when such discrepancies do exist.

What one scorer may consider a giveaway at Prudential for Kovalchuk may not count as a giveaway for Mr. Crosby in Pittsburgh, etc.

Kovalchuk went from roughly 80-90 giveaways a year in Atlanta to 100-120 in NJ.. did his game change that much?

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03-30-2013, 01:02 AM
  #50
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I watched about 30 games last season, 30 the season before, and only 9-10 this season on gamecenter.

Tell me, why is Kovi consistently one of the highest scorers yet one of the worst +/- on the teams he plays on?

If he's so good defensively why doesn't he steal the puck and have high takeaway stats like Datsyuk/Toews/Kane?

Oh, and here:

Quote:
Giveaways
A giveaway is when a player's own actions result in a loss of puck possession to the opposing team. When a player deliberately shoots the puck into the opponent's end, the play is not counted as a giveaway.

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