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Is Kovalchuk underrated?

View Poll Results: See thread title
Yes 24 30.38%
He's rated fairly IMO 48 60.76%
He's overrated actually, (specify why) 7 8.86%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-30-2013, 01:04 AM
  #51
trufleshufle13
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/standings.htm...d=nav-stn-conf

Says here the Devils ended with a +19.

And, if you're saying Kovi gave most of those pucks away while the team was on the power play that's even worse. Prove to me that he only gives the puck away on the power play. You do watch enough games to know that he plays the point right? You do realize that common sense would dictate throwing the puck away from the point leads to odd man opportunities, correct?
wow, please read back what he said and find where he said "he only gives the puck away on the power play" he clearly says its "possible" to give the puck away on a power play. you are avoiding questions and just making up what other people say WHILE quoting them. makes me wonder if its worth trying but ill give it a shot.

Regardless of the power play he is double shifted CONSTANTLY. always thrown out there against the top guys. A lot of the time he is thrown out there it's not to go score goals its to stop their stars from scoring and a lot of time he does and sometimes he doesn't.

being asked to play against every threat every game is going to give you some bad numbers over time. but they put him out there because he has the best shot at neutralizing and picking up points himself.

so before quoting, rewording and then saying something ridiculous, can you please answer the question you have been avoiding. do you watch any devils games at all. besides highlights and the rare NBC broadcast now and again.

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03-30-2013, 01:07 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
This must be your first time using NHL.com. The GD is different from +/- given it includes SO wins/losses, etc.
You're right on that, whiffed on the page but Kovi is still under his team stat while Kessel's leafs were -26

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03-30-2013, 01:08 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
I watched about 30 games last season, 30 the season before, and only 9-10 this season on gamecenter.

Tell me, why is Kovi consistently one of the highest scorers yet one of the worst +/- on the teams he plays on?

If he's so good defensively why doesn't he steal the puck and have high takeaway stats like Datsyuk/Toews/Kane?

Oh, and here:
ok you answered. but the reason he doesnt have high takeaway stats like them is because he always plays the threats. the 3 you listed are out there purely for points. Kovi gets put out there on certain lines for that, but a lot of time hes put on the 4th or 3rd to help shut down those types of players.

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03-30-2013, 01:09 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by trufleshufle13 View Post
wow, please read back what he said and find where he said "he only gives the puck away on the power play" he clearly says its "possible" to give the puck away on a power play. you are avoiding questions and just making up what other people say WHILE quoting them. makes me wonder if its worth trying but ill give it a shot.

Regardless of the power play he is double shifted CONSTANTLY. always thrown out there against the top guys. A lot of the time he is thrown out there it's not to go score goals its to stop their stars from scoring and a lot of time he does and sometimes he doesn't.

being asked to play against every threat every game is going to give you some bad numbers over time. but they put him out there because he has the best shot at neutralizing and picking up points himself.

so before quoting, rewording and then saying something ridiculous, can you please answer the question you have been avoiding. do you watch any devils games at all. besides highlights and the rare NBC broadcast now and again.
I answered those questions...

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03-30-2013, 01:10 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by trufleshufle13 View Post
ok you answered. but the reason he doesnt have high takeaway stats like them is because he always plays the threats. the 3 you listed are out there purely for points. Kovi gets put out there on certain lines for that, but a lot of time hes put on the 4th or 3rd to help shut down those types of players.
No one else that "plays the threats" has numbers that bad. Sorry. Every team shuffles lines and many like Detroit, Chi, Pitts double shift their stars and put them in those situations.

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03-30-2013, 01:11 AM
  #56
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Lidstrom won the Norris two years ago with a minus rating. Mark freaking Fraser lead the league in plus minus for half of this seaosn.

Plus minus blows.

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03-30-2013, 01:12 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
No one else that "plays the threats" has number that bad. Sorry.
no other player plays as many roles as he does. sorry.

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03-30-2013, 01:14 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
I watched about 30 games last season, 30 the season before, and only 9-10 this season on gamecenter.

Tell me, why is Kovi consistently one of the highest scorers yet one of the worst +/- on the teams he plays on?

If he's so good defensively why doesn't he steal the puck and have high takeaway stats like Datsyuk/Toews/Kane?

Oh, and here:
Right.. but deliberately shooting the puck into the opponent's end is talking about dumping the puck in from center ice.. not from the point (you're already in their end).

Again, giveaways are a very liberal stat category that have obvious discrepancies and biases among different people at different arenas.

What constitutes a takeaway also varies among arenas.
Chicago had 2x as many takeaways at home last year as on the road.. think Toews may have benefited from that?

Kovy is routinely a minus player because of:
1) SHGA, whether they are his fault or not
2) Routinely playing against top talent on the other line, especially in the Atlantic Division with all of its superstars

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03-30-2013, 01:15 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by trufleshufle13 View Post
no other player plays as many roles as he does. sorry.
Not true at all, although he's one of the few forwards that gets double shifts at the point on the power play. Heck, Kopitar, Toews, Zetterberg, Giroux, Crosby..all go up against top lines game after game and get double-shifted when needed.

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03-30-2013, 01:18 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Right.. but deliberately shooting the puck into the opponent's end is talking about dumping the puck in from center ice.. not from the point (you're already in their end).

Again, giveaways are a very liberal stat category that have obvious discrepancies and biases among different people at different arenas.

What constitutes a takeaway also varies among arenas.
Chicago had 2x as many takeaways at home last year as on the road.. think Toews may have benefited from that?

Kovy is routinely a minus player because of:
1) SHGA, whether they are his fault or not
2) Routinely playing against top talent on the other line, especially in the Atlantic Division with all of its superstars
Toews, like Hossa and Kane honestly spend most of their time when in the neutral zone or defensive lifting sticks and stealing pucks. That's just how they play, Kovy doesn't play like that.

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03-30-2013, 01:19 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Not true at all, although he's one of the few forwards that gets double shifts at the point on the power play. Heck, Kopitar, Toews, Zetterberg, Giroux, Crosby..all go up against top lines game after game and get double-shifted when needed.
not nearly to the extent kovi does, when they are double shifted its mostly to get them out there to tie up or win the game. Kovi is put back out there to defend against these players being double shifted to score.

putting out your 1st line more often in a game to get the lead is not the same as putting a 1st line player back out there to keep it. which kovi is asked to do both of.

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03-30-2013, 01:22 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Not true at all, although he's one of the few forwards that gets double shifts at the point on the power play. Heck, Kopitar, Toews, Zetterberg, Giroux, Crosby..all go up against top lines game after game and get double-shifted when needed.
Yet Kovy has a higher ESTOI/G than every player you just named...

18:21 ESTOI/G vs.

Kopitar: 15:41
Toews: 15:41
Zetterberg: 15:32
Giroux: 15:23
Crosby: 14:27 (last year.. this year: 16:28)

So there must still be a significant difference in how these players are utilized at ES..

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03-30-2013, 01:22 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Toews, like Hossa and Kane honestly spend most of their time when in the neutral zone or defensive lifting sticks and stealing pucks. That's just how they play, Kovy doesn't play like that.
yea most devils dont, thats not their play style unless its the forcheckers.

they try to get in position to break up developing plays rather then taking the risk of being caught out of position chasing the puck carrier. makes me again question if you actually watch devils games.

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03-30-2013, 01:23 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by trufleshufle13 View Post
not nearly to the extent kovi does, when they are double shifted its mostly to get them out there to tie up or win the game. Kovi is put back out there to defend against these players being double shifted to score.

putting out your 1st line more often in a game to get the lead is not the same as putting a 1st line player back out there to keep it. which kovi is asked to do both of.
So are those guys, honestly. There's a lot top forwards with hard defensive assignments and plenty of teams with a good first line to go up against in any division/conference.

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03-30-2013, 01:23 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Toews, like Hossa and Kane honestly spend most of their time when in the neutral zone or defensive lifting sticks and stealing pucks. That's just how they play, Kovy doesn't play like that.
That's not what I asked.

Please explain how the Blackhawks recorded twice as many takeaways at home as they did on the road?

Why were they so much better last year at taking the puck away on their home ice?

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03-30-2013, 01:24 AM
  #66
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Not everyone is either over or under rated. There is a massive area in between. Underrated is a guy like Ray Whitney for much if his career. Kocalchuk is a known producer and has been all his career

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03-30-2013, 01:26 AM
  #67
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Not everyone is either over or under rated. There is a massive area in between. Underrated is a guy like Ray Whitney for much if his career. Kocalchuk is a known producer and has been all his career
For the record, I think Kovalchuk is fairly rated by most people on these boards. He's a borderline top 10 player in the league and a top 2 winger.

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03-30-2013, 01:28 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Yet Kovy has a higher ESTOI/G than every player you just named...

18:21 ESTOI/G vs.

Kopitar: 15:41
Toews: 15:41
Zetterberg: 15:32
Giroux: 15:23
Crosby: 14:27 (last year.. this year: 16:28)

So there must still be a significant difference in how these players are utilized at ES..
YES! Devils need to score, especially in the third period. Kovi is the go to guy. He gets a lot of minutes as being the guy who sets up or retrieves the big shot, much like St. Louis/Stamkos.

Problem is, that scoring is needed but is often needed because by the mistakes made by the forwards and often by Kovi.

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03-30-2013, 01:31 AM
  #69
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That's not what I asked.

Please explain how the Blackhawks recorded twice as many takeaways at home as they did on the road?

Why were they so much better last year at taking the puck away on their home ice?
Because they're well rested and the definition of a good road game in the west relies on the visitors slowing the game down and clogging the neutral zone. Thus, they need to take the puck away to have a chance at winning because they'll lose most games if they don't get the bulk of the opportunities.

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03-30-2013, 01:38 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by trufleshufle13 View Post
yea most devils dont, thats not their play style unless its the forcheckers.

they try to get in position to break up developing plays rather then taking the risk of being caught out of position chasing the puck carrier. makes me again question if you actually watch devils games.
Often times when you break up the play for force a turnover/takeaway. C'mon, don't block Parise out of your memory.

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03-30-2013, 01:40 AM
  #71
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Often times when you break up the play for force a turnover/takeaway. C'mon, don't block Parise out of your memory.
turnover and takeaway are 2 different things, and i never would. but his take aways were in the O zone, not the neutral.

EDIT:but now were going tit for tat, i think this debate has run its course. was fun and would do it again, feel free to have the last word but please dont make it something i can't not respond to.

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03-30-2013, 01:45 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by trufleshufle13 View Post
turnover and takeaway are 2 different things, and i never would. but his take aways were in the O zone, not the neutral.

EDIT:but now were going tit for tat, i think this debate has run its course. was fun and would do it again, feel free to have the last word but please dont make it something i can't not respond to.


Honestly, I have a strong anti-kovi bias and have for about three years so I'm not looking at it with an open mind. But, I think there is some truth to it. To me, a guy like Parise will take a team further even though it doesn't always show up on the score sheet.

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03-30-2013, 02:03 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Because they're well rested and the definition of a good road game in the west relies on the visitors slowing the game down and clogging the neutral zone. Thus, they need to take the puck away to have a chance at winning because they'll lose most games if they don't get the bulk of the opportunities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post


Honestly, I have a strong anti-kovi bias and have for about three years so I'm not looking at it with an open mind. But, I think there is some truth to it. To me, a guy like Parise will take a team further even though it doesn't always show up on the score sheet.
But why only the Blackhawks then? No other team shows as large a disparity between home and away takeaways.. Only the Blackhawks are rested and play a good home game?

A guy like Parise, you have an argument. That's an elite defensive forward who can still put up points. But that's not what we're talking about. You brought up Kessel and that's a joke.

And honestly, if I had to choose between the two, I may pick Parise short-term but over the long-term, a guy like Kovalchuk is 10x more valuable to have.

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03-30-2013, 02:06 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
YES! Devils need to score, especially in the third period. Kovi is the go to guy. He gets a lot of minutes as being the guy who sets up or retrieves the big shot, much like St. Louis/Stamkos.

Problem is, that scoring is needed but is often needed because by the mistakes made by the forwards and often by Kovi.
It's nice to claim things without stats to back it up...

I would like some proof to the bolded in general. You make it as if every single turnover is an automatic goal or scoring opportunity against.. when it most obviously isn't (or Kovalchuk would be on the ice for significantly more goals than his peers on the Devils.. but he's not as demonstrated by his -9 compared to a team -8).

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03-30-2013, 02:10 AM
  #75
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But why only the Blackhawks then? No other team shows as large a disparity between home and away takeaways.. Only the Blackhawks are rested and play a good home game?

A guy like Parise, you have an argument. That's an elite defensive forward who can still put up points. But that's not what we're talking about. You brought up Kessel and that's a joke.

And honestly, if I had to choose between the two, I may pick Parise short-term but over the long-term, a guy like Kovalchuk is 10x more valuable to have.
I see your point but I do think Kessel, at his age, has more room to learn the team game and Kovi has done the best he can despite being developed as a one-way player.

I don't know what happened in the playoffs last year but in a tight 7-game series I'd take Parise against most teams over Kovi.

I feel like when Kovi is on the ice the team is trying to get the puck to him to score but guys like Parise go out and get the puck and create the opportunities from scratch.

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