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13-14' Prospects Thread Version XVI: All Prospect Talk Here

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Old
07-21-2013, 11:23 AM
  #901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flowzie View Post
Granberg
Biggs
Leivo
Broll
Rielly

They all have 'potential' to make it this year. Also you have to consider how much of an actual impact those players made on those 22 teams. I'm sure a majority of them played very little games.
At this rate, Biggs won't see the NHL for another four years.

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Old
07-21-2013, 11:31 AM
  #902
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Well as you might have heard, we traded two first round picks and a second pick for Kessel . So since 2010, our scouting staff has been working with a less than full array of picks. Also, as others mentioned, there are some solid prospects on the cusp from those draft years.
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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
It's not really a concern because we got Phil Kessel instead. Also, we got Kadri from '09.

You can make any team look bad as long as you frame it right.
Kessel has done well, but it did accelerate the time for the assets to become UFA statused.

And it did this without really providing any tangible rewards.

It is too bad the Leafs did not have a patient GM, but as long as Kessel can be re-signed to a long term contract it should even out in the long term.

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Old
07-21-2013, 02:03 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=62467
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=59656

I'm not sure where the misconception that Perry and Getzlaf were developed in the AHL.

They started in the AHL, were too good and got promoted.

Bobby Ryan was locked in the AHL because the Ducks had cap issues and that was when there was talk of moving him because of those issues.

Certainly, players develop in the AHL, but 17 games isn't being developed in the AHL. That would be like claiming Gunnarsson was developed in the AHL after player 4 seasons in the SEL, he developed in 12 AHL games.

If you are good enough you don't develop in the AHL, if your deficiencies are too great that is where you work on those deficiencies.
My apologies, I meant to put properly developed through junior instead of the world juniors. So I am counting their time in both junior and the AHL as development.

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Old
07-21-2013, 04:17 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Number13 View Post
Well as you might have heard, we traded two first round picks and a second pick for Kessel . So since 2010, our scouting staff has been working with a less than full array of picks. Also, as others mentioned, there are some solid prospects on the cusp from those draft years.
If you need slam dunk picks to find prospects then we don't have a good scouting staff.

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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
It's not really a concern because we got Phil Kessel instead. Also, we got Kadri from '09.

You can make any team look bad as long as you frame it right.
Alright I'll expand it to 09 if you wish.

Dallas 2 players - Smith, Vincour
Wings 1 - Tatar
Leafs 1 - Kadri
Kings 3 - Nolan, Clifford, Schenn
Preds 3 - Bourque, Smith, Ellis
Coyotes 1 - OEL
Sharks 0
Canucks 1 - Schroder

Us and the Coyotes have 1 prospect drafted by us play for us since 09, and they were both drafted in 09. You'd think with all the money we had we'd be better at scouting than the coyotes.

Going to 08 doesn't help us as you see teams start to have more players playing for their respective team, yet you see us and Luke Schenn, another top 10 pick.

Two draft picks in 5 years.

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Old
07-21-2013, 04:36 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
If you need slam dunk picks to find prospects then we don't have a good scouting staff.



Alright I'll expand it to 09 if you wish.

Dallas 2 players - Smith, Vincour
Wings 1 - Tatar
Leafs 1 - Kadri
Kings 3 - Nolan, Clifford, Schenn
Preds 3 - Bourque, Smith, Ellis
Coyotes 1 - OEL
Sharks 0
Canucks 1 - Schroder

Us and the Coyotes have 1 prospect drafted by us play for us since 09, and they were both drafted in 09. You'd think with all the money we had we'd be better at scouting than the coyotes.

Going to 08 doesn't help us as you see teams start to have more players playing for their respective team, yet you see us and Luke Schenn, another top 10 pick.

Two draft picks in 5 years.
It would be nice if we could see a cost benefit analysis of all the scouting staffs around the league to see who is getting the best return on their investment.

Wasting money is never something to be proud of regardless of how much you have. It is an indicator of incompetence, and the acceptance of incompetence is a reflection on those who have the authority to address it.

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Old
07-21-2013, 04:48 PM
  #906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
If you need slam dunk picks to find prospects then we don't have a good scouting staff.



Alright I'll expand it to 09 if you wish.

Dallas 2 players - Smith, Vincour
Wings 1 - Tatar
Leafs 1 - Kadri
Kings 3 - Nolan, Clifford, Schenn
Preds 3 - Bourque, Smith, Ellis
Coyotes 1 - OEL
Sharks 0
Canucks 1 - Schroder

Us and the Coyotes have 1 prospect drafted by us play for us since 09, and they were both drafted in 09. You'd think with all the money we had we'd be better at scouting than the coyotes.

Going to 08 doesn't help us as you see teams start to have more players playing for their respective team, yet you see us and Luke Schenn, another top 10 pick.

Two draft picks in 5 years.
Very concerning to say the least. Many teams that are regularly without 1st round selections or high picks still have many prospects that are making an impact.

I haven't been impressed by Morrison's draft selections. He needs to step up or get out. there is no excuse for having only 1 blue chip prospect after tanking so many years.

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Old
07-21-2013, 05:07 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Duffman955 View Post
Very concerning to say the least. Many teams that are regularly without 1st round selections or high picks still have many prospects that are making an impact.

I haven't been impressed by Morrison's draft selections. He needs to step up or get out. there is no excuse for having only 1 blue chip prospect after tanking so many years.
It's not the best resume, but he's shown in previous years that he can pick up some decent talent in later rounds.

The 2006 draft comes to mind, as well as getting Frattin and Gunnarsson in 2007. In 2008 they also got Jimmy Hayes and Andrew MacWilliam in later rounds. Hayes was traded for what is essentially Brad Ross now, though Hayes has shown he could be at least a decent 3rd liner imo, and MacWilliam is built like a tank and could be a potentially good depth d-man, kind of like Matt Greene for L.A. (similar career path and playing style, both coming out of UND).

The other drafts still have quite a bit of time before we can judge, for example in 2009 while we didn't have many skill picks we picked up some players who could be good depth guys, like Kenny Ryan, Jamie Devane, Jerry D'Amigo, Eric Knodel, etc. I had higher hopes for Jesse Blacker but at this point he seems like a major work in progress.

2011 looks like it could be a very good draft on the other hand. Excited to see what that crop of guys can do.

Still is quite disappointing though, we lack guys who have higher potential ceilings or possess a lot of skill, and I feel like we often opt more for the 'safe' depth pick, like 3rd and 4th line potential players as well as bottom pairing d-men.

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Old
07-21-2013, 05:23 PM
  #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
If you need slam dunk picks to find prospects then we don't have a good scouting staff.



Alright I'll expand it to 09 if you wish.

Dallas 2 players - Smith, Vincour
Wings 1 - Tatar
Leafs 1 - Kadri
Kings 3 - Nolan, Clifford, Schenn
Preds 3 - Bourque, Smith, Ellis
Coyotes 1 - OEL
Sharks 0
Canucks 1 - Schroder

Us and the Coyotes have 1 prospect drafted by us play for us since 09, and they were both drafted in 09. You'd think with all the money we had we'd be better at scouting than the coyotes.

Going to 08 doesn't help us as you see teams start to have more players playing for their respective team, yet you see us and Luke Schenn, another top 10 pick.

Two draft picks in 5 years.
Oof. Didn't know it was that bad.

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Old
07-21-2013, 08:55 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
It's not the best resume, but he's shown in previous years that he can pick up some decent talent in later rounds.

The 2006 draft comes to mind, as well as getting Frattin and Gunnarsson in 2007. In 2008 they also got Jimmy Hayes and Andrew MacWilliam in later rounds. Hayes was traded for what is essentially Brad Ross now, though Hayes has shown he could be at least a decent 3rd liner imo, and MacWilliam is built like a tank and could be a potentially good depth d-man, kind of like Matt Greene for L.A. (similar career path and playing style, both coming out of UND).

The other drafts still have quite a bit of time before we can judge, for example in 2009 while we didn't have many skill picks we picked up some players who could be good depth guys, like Kenny Ryan, Jamie Devane, Jerry D'Amigo, Eric Knodel, etc. I had higher hopes for Jesse Blacker but at this point he seems like a major work in progress.

2011 looks like it could be a very good draft on the other hand. Excited to see what that crop of guys can do.

Still is quite disappointing though, we lack guys who have higher potential ceilings or possess a lot of skill, and I feel like we often opt more for the 'safe' depth pick, like 3rd and 4th line potential players as well as bottom pairing d-men.
Oh come on. His resume is one of, if not the worst in the NHL in the last 5 years. He drafted 2 NHL players that were top 10 picks in the last 5 years.

I am pretty sure that places him dead last in the league. Feel free to look it up.

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Old
07-21-2013, 09:13 PM
  #910
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I think the problem with the Leafs is that they don't give their other prospects a real chance to make the NHL.

Kenny Ryan, Greg McKegg, Devane etc should all be given a chance to see what they can do at the NHL level.

What was the point of playing Joey Crabb, Tim Brent, Kostka, Lebda etc? We could have easily played Blacker, D'Amigo, Kenny Ryan (who I think is going to be a fantastic 3rd/4th liner) but we didn't.

I really don't have any hopes for anyone picked outside of the 1st two rounds because our management is just hell bent on going the UFA route for every single player...We would honestly never know if we had a Jamie Benn in our system because we would be too busy trying to turn him into a proper 3rd liner.

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Old
07-21-2013, 11:03 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I think the problem with the Leafs is that they don't give their other prospects a real chance to make the NHL.

Kenny Ryan, Greg McKegg, Devane etc should all be given a chance to see what they can do at the NHL level.

What was the point of playing Joey Crabb, Tim Brent, Kostka, Lebda etc? We could have easily played Blacker, D'Amigo, Kenny Ryan (who I think is going to be a fantastic 3rd/4th liner) but we didn't.

I really don't have any hopes for anyone picked outside of the 1st two rounds because our management is just hell bent on going the UFA route for every single player...We would honestly never know if we had a Jamie Benn in our system because we would be too busy trying to turn him into a proper 3rd liner.
These players weren't given a chance because they didn't earn it.

If you watch marlies games, you can easily see these prospects look like nothing more than career ahlers. Kadri, frattin and Gardiner looked dominant, therefore were given a chance with the big club.

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Old
07-22-2013, 08:30 AM
  #912
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
If you need slam dunk picks to find prospects then we don't have a good scouting staff.



Alright I'll expand it to 09 if you wish.

Dallas 2 players - Smith, Vincour
Wings 1 - Tatar
Leafs 1 - Kadri
Kings 3 - Nolan, Clifford, Schenn
Preds 3 - Bourque, Smith, Ellis
Coyotes 1 - OEL
Sharks 0
Canucks 1 - Schroder

Us and the Coyotes have 1 prospect drafted by us play for us since 09, and they were both drafted in 09. You'd think with all the money we had we'd be better at scouting than the coyotes.

Going to 08 doesn't help us as you see teams start to have more players playing for their respective team, yet you see us and Luke Schenn, another top 10 pick.

Two draft picks in 5 years.
Jimmy Hayes from 2008 has played 41 NHL games and is likely to make the Hawks this year.

Grannberg and D'Amigo are pretty strong contenders for the Leafs team this year.

Drafting isn't an exact science. Sometimes players take longer than a year to make the NHL. Especially late round picks.

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Old
07-22-2013, 08:54 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Duffman955 View Post
Oh come on. His resume is one of, if not the worst in the NHL in the last 5 years. He drafted 2 NHL players that were top 10 picks in the last 5 years.

I am pretty sure that places him dead last in the league. Feel free to look it up.
Detroit has Tatar and Nyquist to a combined 67 Games since 2008 but apparantly it's ok when they take their time with prospects.

The Sharks have Wingels and Demers, and I suppose one could count Coyle, he of 37 games played (which in that case means the Leafs have three, since Jimmy Hayes has played as much in the NHL).

The Stars have Smith, Vincour and Larsen.

The Flames have Erixon and Brodie.

Canucks have Hodgson and Schroeder.

Oilers have a bunch, but I'm only counting Eberle, Lander, Hartikainen and MPS as they were outside number 1.

Coyotes have OEL, Stone and Boedker. They would have had Tikhonov but he left. Knowing some of the fans on here, ahd the Leafs chosen him, the scouting staff probably would have gotten crapa for not knowing he would leave so I don't count him.

Flyers have Couturier, Wellwood, Sbsia, Rinaldo, MA Bourdon.

Rangers have Horak, Stepan, MDZ, Weise.

Devils ahve Josefson, Larsson, Tedenby, Henrique, Cormier.

I could go on but I don't really have the time.

Leafs aren't the worst team out there and interestingly enough very few teams have NHL players yet from drafts after 2009. When they did, it was almost exclusively from the 1st round.

Late round picks usually take about 3-5 years to develop, meaning that the 2010 draft is only just entering the phase where we could see players start to make the jump.

And lo and behold, guess what?! One of those picks is looking like he could do it! Peter Grannberg.

I just don't get all teh whining and moaning when the NHL's favorite developing and drafting team teh Red Wings method of development is the slow burn method, taking their time.

Hell they only just had their two highest picks from the 2007 (yes you read that right) graduate this PAST season. So either they aren't the darlings everyone makes them out to be (they do have a worse record then us btw but I can just hear someone wiaitng to scream "but they have better prospects!!!") or maybe we should be a little more patient with our own prospects....

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Old
07-22-2013, 09:13 AM
  #914
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Detroit has had a very overrated prospect pool for quite some time. To this day I still see them in the top 10 in most organizational rankings and I still can't figure out why in the world they are.

They are obviously able to get some good prospects for where they usually pick but like Wookie explained, they just aren't that great.

For example, Pronman's rankings:

Quote:
7. Detroit Red Wings
Brendan Smith graduated, and Detroit lacks a truly elite prospect, but the amount of good to very good prospects in this organization is among hockey's best. Gustav Nyquist, Tomas Tatar, Danny DeKeyser, and Calle Jarnkrok lead the pack, but there are many other names that possess upside beyond them.
Quote:
24. Toronto Maple Leafs
The Leafs have a deep organization, but they lack strong prospects at the top. Morgan Rielly is the cornerstone for this organization, and players like Joe Colborne, Matt Finn, Stuart Percy, Josh Leivo, and Frederik Gauthier, among others, are good organizational prospects. Aside from Rielly, however, it is hard to argue that any of these names are significant pieces.
Makes no sense to place Detroit so high when they are very average in terms of prospects. This is a ranking based on reputation moreso than anything else. I think Detroit definitely is one of the better drafting teams out there but they haven't really proved that in recent years. I can't recall many, if any, prospects that they drafted that had a good impact on their roster since 2005, with Helm and Abdelkader leading the pack... 8 years ago... Neither I would call great finds by any means.


Last edited by SprDaVE: 07-22-2013 at 09:34 AM.
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07-22-2013, 02:04 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by SprDaVE View Post
Detroit has had a very overrated prospect pool for quite some time. To this day I still see them in the top 10 in most organizational rankings and I still can't figure out why in the world they are.

They are obviously able to get some good prospects for where they usually pick but like Wookie explained, they just aren't that great.

For example, Pronman's rankings:





Makes no sense to place Detroit so high when they are very average in terms of prospects. This is a ranking based on reputation moreso than anything else. I think Detroit definitely is one of the better drafting teams out there but they haven't really proved that in recent years. I can't recall many, if any, prospects that they drafted that had a good impact on their roster since 2005, with Helm and Abdelkader leading the pack... 8 years ago... Neither I would call great finds by any means.
I like some of coreys rankings but he hasn't really ever liked anything the leafs have done, I dont want to say hes biased towards the Leafs but with alot of his writing/rankings it appears to be that way.

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07-22-2013, 02:15 PM
  #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SprDaVE View Post
Detroit has had a very overrated prospect pool for quite some time. To this day I still see them in the top 10 in most organizational rankings and I still can't figure out why in the world they are.

They are obviously able to get some good prospects for where they usually pick but like Wookie explained, they just aren't that great.

For example, Pronman's rankings:





Makes no sense to place Detroit so high when they are very average in terms of prospects. This is a ranking based on reputation moreso than anything else. I think Detroit definitely is one of the better drafting teams out there but they haven't really proved that in recent years. I can't recall many, if any, prospects that they drafted that had a good impact on their roster since 2005, with Helm and Abdelkader leading the pack... 8 years ago... Neither I would call great finds by any means.
Updated list of detroit draft picks and games played in the NHL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...gs_draft_picks

Toronto's non-updated list of draft picks and games played:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...fs_draft_picks

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07-22-2013, 02:16 PM
  #917
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Oof. Didn't know it was that bad.
I've been telling you that for years. Wake up young man.

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07-22-2013, 02:20 PM
  #918
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I like some of coreys rankings but he hasn't really ever liked anything the leafs have done, I dont want to say hes biased towards the Leafs but with alot of his writing/rankings it appears to be that way.
He thinks the Leafs will be one of the worst teams this upcoming season (no joke).

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07-22-2013, 03:02 PM
  #919
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He thinks the Leafs will be one of the worst teams this upcoming season (no joke).
Ya i know.... It could happen but im not sure this team will regress THAT much. A few of our prospects could turn out to be steals, I'm not sure how mcuh CHL he watches compared to europe and the states.

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07-22-2013, 03:11 PM
  #920
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Ya i know.... It could happen but im not sure this team will regress THAT much. A few of our prospects could turn out to be steals, I'm not sure how mcuh CHL he watches compared to europe and the states.
Even the crap he does watch, its total video feed.

EDIT: Not that it makes his opinion useless, but you need to take it with a grain of salt as always.

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07-22-2013, 03:22 PM
  #921
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A lot of our prospects are going to make the jump (or be ready to) in a short period of time fairly shortly

This year:
Rielly
D'Amigo
Colborne

1-2 years:
Percy
Finn
Ashton (I don't think his ceiling is high at all, though)

2-3 years:
Leivo
Biggs

Still think Mckeggs got potential. With a name like that you have to assume that the Hockey gods are on his side

Don't expect much from Ross.

Granberg I don't know enough to make an educated estimate.

Blacker is a toss-up. Got all the tools but hasn't made much progress lately.

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07-22-2013, 03:32 PM
  #922
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I've been telling you that for years. Wake up young man.


Yeah but you're quite a bit more cynical about the whole thing. I find myself a reluctant optimist

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Old
07-22-2013, 08:31 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
Jimmy Hayes from 2008 has played 41 NHL games and is likely to make the Hawks this year.

Grannberg and D'Amigo are pretty strong contenders for the Leafs team this year.

Drafting isn't an exact science. Sometimes players take longer than a year to make the NHL. Especially late round picks.
I said playing for their respective teams, or else I would have included Coyle too. The point of the whole post was not only to take a look at our scouting, but our development.

Every team has players like Granberg and D'amigo though, players they view are ready. That doesn't really mean anything though until they actually go and prove they are ready.

I never claimed it was a science either. But why are we so poor at drafting compared to every other team?

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07-23-2013, 01:16 AM
  #924
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Originally Posted by KlattNazty View Post
Even the crap he does watch, its total video feed.

EDIT: Not that it makes his opinion useless, but you need to take it with a grain of salt as always.
He relies heavy on shooting percentage and yes, video. You miss so much watching games online, but ya I take his opinion a little less serious than scouts that I see at rinks on the regular(lafortune) who get a grasp on most of these kids at the age of 14-15. I asked pron about dal colle earlier in the year and he told me he doesn't really watch players until they are draft eligible. I find that hard to do even when I go to games to watch certain guys, for example, the soo when I went to watch gainly, nurse and tolchinski, the only guy I could keep my eyes on was Jared McCann. I trust a few posters on here more than the pron strictly be side of live views

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07-23-2013, 05:44 AM
  #925
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I've been telling you that for years. Wake up young man.
What did you tell us about Kadri?

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