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13-14' Prospects Thread Version XVI: All Prospect Talk Here

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Old
04-07-2013, 10:52 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by The Mad Dalton View Post
No correction necessary here matey: the other first rounder was indeed Percy, but you've picked me up incorrectly: I was referring to Leivo in the context that whilst we may have "overpaid" to get Biggs, time will tell, but we may have well gotten a steal in selecting Leivo way under the radar in the 3rd round.

For that I can forgive any so-called "overpayment" that may have been made to select Biigs.

It looks like a good draft for us overall which will in time be the best way to assess.
I see where you are coming from but I don't support misusing one asset because another asset did good. That's more like treading water than making headway.

However, we all hope Biggs and Percy justify being 1st. round picks, rather than being happy they turn into NHL players rather than busts.

Realistically, Biggs wasn't a reach, he was a good pick at the time. The only question remaining is will he justify being there?

Percy was a reach, but only by about 10-15 picks.

The cost (IMO) being a 2nd. round pick to make those picks, is where the loss comes into play. It very well may be that the Leafs threw away that 2nd. for no gain. That's really the only questionable part of the 2011 draft.

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04-07-2013, 11:36 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I see where you are coming from but I don't support misusing one asset because another asset did good. That's more like treading water than making headway.

However, we all hope Biggs and Percy justify being 1st. round picks, rather than being happy they turn into NHL players rather than busts.

Realistically, Biggs wasn't a reach, he was a good pick at the time. The only question remaining is will he justify being there?

Percy was a reach, but only by about 10-15 picks.

The cost (IMO) being a 2nd. round pick to make those picks, is where the loss comes into play. It very well may be that the Leafs threw away that 2nd. for no gain. That's really the only questionable part of the 2011 draft.
I recall we had 2 players targeted that year drafting 25 and 30, question was how to get them. Biggs and Percy. This was a draft to reach as there was a lot of depth to it.

Biggs was rated as high as 14 at one point, I commend Burke for going after this player because his upside was a Milan Lucic who was fresh in everyone's mind after the Bruins cup win, in his draft year he only scored 9 goals, and 30 in 70 games the season after. Tyler had 26 goals in 60 games the year after he was drafted, so they are very much in the same neighbourhood in terms of stats.

Percy is going to be solid player, Morrison said he was not worried, he is never going to be a Jake Gardiner type of obvious talent type, but the more I see him play, the more I understand why we picked him, and why Burke wanted him before Tyler.

Regardless, I think a lot of fans are jumping the gun here, as they did for Kadri. When I suggested before the season started to Ernie the poster, this is the year to try Kadri in a top 6 C role over Grabo, this was due to trust we have a first rd pick that needs to show what he is capable of and trust I had faith in him based on his character and play in the AHL, his reply was 'what has Kadri ever done in the NHL, he has never scored 58 points". Now we see the same questioning of prospects. You have to trust your scouts and development people in the Leafs organization.

Bottom line it is too early to be worried about Biggs/Percy, as with Kadri all he needed was a chance, and these 2 kids will get their chance one day to prove they were great picks by us. When you are a top 30 pick, you have license for the patient approach. This is what I am saying for Biggs and Percy, I didn't waver on Kadri, and I am 100% happy we got Biggs and Percy, time will tell.

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Old
04-07-2013, 12:52 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I recall we had 2 players targeted that year drafting 25 and 30, question was how to get them. Biggs and Percy. This was a draft to reach as there was a lot of depth to it.

Biggs was rated as high as 14 at one point, I commend Burke for going after this player because his upside was a Milan Lucic who was fresh in everyone's mind after the Bruins cup win, in his draft year he only scored 9 goals, and 30 in 70 games the season after. Tyler had 26 goals in 60 games the year after he was drafted, so they are very much in the same neighbourhood in terms of stats.
Draft years:

Lucic 30 goals in 70 games
Biggs 9 goals in 37 games


Quote:

Percy is going to be solid player, Morrison said he was not worried, he is never going to be a Jake Gardiner type of obvious talent type, but the more I see him play, the more I understand why we picked him, and why Burke wanted him before Tyler.
Regardless, I think a lot of fans are jumping the gun here, as they did for Kadri. When I suggested before the season started to Ernie the poster, this is the year to try Kadri in a top 6 C role over Grabo, this was due to trust we have a first rd pick that needs to show what he is capable of and trust I had faith in him based on his character and play in the AHL, his reply was 'what has Kadri ever done in the NHL, he has never scored 58 points". Now we see the same questioning of prospects. You have to trust your scouts and development people in the Leafs organization.

Bottom line it is too early to be worried about Biggs/Percy, as with Kadri all he needed was a chance, and these 2 kids will get their chance one day to prove they were great picks by us. When you are a top 30 pick, you have license for the patient approach. This is what I am saying for Biggs and Percy, I didn't waver on Kadri, and I am 100% happy we got Biggs and Percy, time will tell.
All Kadri needed was to develop.

I'd be okay if they were good picks. Great picks would be a bonanza.

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04-07-2013, 01:02 PM
  #129
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How is that ridiculous. Do you know for a fact that Biggs can't produce at the NHL level?
Scouts rate players on their playoff performances, so far Biggs gets an F.

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04-07-2013, 01:30 PM
  #130
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When I'm talking about progression as juniors, I don't need to keep patience in mind. They are juniors, playing in junior. I'm saying neither has REALLY progressed at a level I would like to see out of kids taken as high as they were.

In terms of being solid NHL'ers, at this point, all we have are hope and optomism, and like the rest of you, i'm in that boat.

Oh, remind me of all the time Kadri spent as a top 6 center in the NHL last year. If he didn't, which is the case, I'm not sure why the chest pounding is going on. I stated that up until the beginning of this year, he had shown nothing at the NHL level, to justify replacing Grabo in the top 6, which was, at the time, 100% the case. What has happened since then is both great, an irrelevant.


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04-07-2013, 01:33 PM
  #131
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I still like the Biggs drafting, yes it wasnt a great idea to pay so much to move up, but he is only 20 and people are getting angry that he isnt lucic, there for a write off ? Id be happy if he makes a 3rd line player in a couple years.

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04-07-2013, 01:53 PM
  #132
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I think people were off with their Lucic comparisons from the start. Lucic and Biggs play very different games. Lucic is a strong guy that hits hard and has good hands around the net. But, he is average-at best defensively and will never see PK time.

Biggs is a very strong defensive player that hits hard and will see a lot of time on the PK. He is a lot more versatile being able to play as the 3rd-guy big body on a scoring line that opens up space for guys like Kessel/Kadri or he can play on a shutdown line against the other teams best players. A player like that brings a lot of value to the team. I see him as a bigger, stronger Kulemin.

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04-07-2013, 03:39 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by SpeakerForTheDead View Post
I think people were off with their Lucic comparisons from the start. Lucic and Biggs play very different games. Lucic is a strong guy that hits hard and has good hands around the net. But, he is average-at best defensively and will never see PK time.

Biggs is a very strong defensive player that hits hard and will see a lot of time on the PK. He is a lot more versatile being able to play as the 3rd-guy big body on a scoring line that opens up space for guys like Kessel/Kadri or he can play on a shutdown line against the other teams best players. A player like that brings a lot of value to the team. I see him as a bigger, stronger Kulemin.
It was actually Biggs himself who compared his style of game to Lucic - immediately after he was drafted. Others picked up on that too, but he was always said to be the toughest player in the draft, by the likes of Mackenzie et al.

I heard someone making that comparison to Kulie previously though & that's not a bad good ceiling at all. Biggs played that defensive role on Team USA at the WJC. Plus Biggs can fight & if he can shoot the puck a little more than Kulie, then that'll be sweet!

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04-07-2013, 03:49 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by The Mad Dalton View Post
It was actually Biggs himself who compared his style of game to Lucic - immediately after he was drafted. Others picked up on that too, but he was always said to be the toughest player in the draft, by the likes of Mackenzie et al.

I heard someone making that comparison to Kulie previously though & that's not a bad good ceiling at all. Biggs played that defensive role on Team USA at the WJC. Plus Biggs can fight & if he can shoot the puck a little more than Kulie, then that'll be sweet!
Yeah, I'm not saying the comparison was wrong at the time of the draft. However, that draft was right after the Bruins won the cup and everyone in the hockey world was in love with Lucic at the time. So, his name seemed to be synonymous with any power forward prospect at the time. But, there are more than one to be a power forward in this league and Lucic is just one style of that.

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04-07-2013, 04:06 PM
  #135
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I like to think that, assuming Eakins stays, with the system that he and Carlyle have in place will come to Biggs fairly easily and he'll buy into it as well .. The defensive first, cycle type game is built for a player like Biggs .. In turn I think he'll become a good leader because of it in the long run

With a glut of quality potential bottom 6ers in the Marlies right now, there is no rush to get Biggs up with the Leafs so he can have a few seasons with them to try and develop his offensive game

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04-07-2013, 04:15 PM
  #136
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I love the biggs pick, put him on Mcclement's wing and youv got a serious shutdown line

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04-07-2013, 04:31 PM
  #137
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I love the biggs pick, put him on Mcclement's wing and youv got a serious shutdown line
Worst case scenario is this, Biggs and Troechek was the key move by Housley when he made them an important shutdown line, with Grimaldi only joining them in the final game after Rocco's benching was the key coaching move by Team USA in the tourney. People will cite Galchenyuk's points totals as to he was a key, but in truth Troechek and Biggs moving up and Galenchyuk's line moving back after the loss to Canada was when TEAM USA went onto gold. They became a much better team when Biggs and Troechek got a more important role, if one didn't watch the tourney, and cited stats, they would have no clue what truly transpired when Team USA went undefeated from then on.

I see Biggs as a support top 6 player, with Kadri and Lupul perhaps. Hopefully as soon as one year in the AHL. If he develops I think he can have this type of impact in the NHL as he hads on Jenner's game. That's my projection, to replace Kule on that line one day, where Kule can drop back to a more comfortable checking role on the 3rd line, obcourse some will say what has Biggs done in the NHL as they did for Kadri, but that's the name of the game with development at the AHL and believing in your top prospects.

You want to upgrade the roster, you want guys pushing vets for jobs. Grabo was showing all the signs he was not going to be RC's boy last 10 games last season, if one truly believed in Kadri and knew his character and talent, it stood to reason this was his year, Morrison said as much at the beginning of the year, don't be surprised if Kadri has a breakthrough year. Only doubters doubt our prospects, as they do in this thread.

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04-07-2013, 05:28 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Draft years:

Lucic 30 goals in 70 games
Biggs 9 goals in 34 games
Your seriously comparing WHL to CCHA?

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04-07-2013, 07:11 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Draft years:

Lucic 30 goals in 70 games
Biggs 9 goals in 37 games




All Kadri needed was to develop.

I'd be okay if they were good picks. Great picks would be a bonanza.
I think you mean post draft years.

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04-07-2013, 07:12 PM
  #140
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Text from a fellow coach in Oshawa, at the game today:

"It pains me to watch someone be as ineffective as Tyler Biggs is today. The highlight of his game was sitting down for two minutes, so we could put someone out who felt like playing. dirty hit from behind, playing like a bonehead. What's with this guy?"

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04-07-2013, 07:23 PM
  #141
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Both Biggs and Lucic had big jumps in goals in their post draft years.

I don't have a problem with the Lucic comparison only when you realize Lucic was a 23 goal scorer in the Bruins cup winning year, not 30 unless you include 7 ENG that season.

7 is an extraordinary number of empty net goals, safe to say Lucic is more a 20-25 goal player than a 30 goal man.

It is not in the realm to say Biggs can score 20-25 goals in the NHL. I would say if he scored 15-20 and play good defence on a line say Lupul and Kadri giving his line mates space, this would point to him being a key player.

Again you can't have all skill on a team, you need these type of support players also.

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04-07-2013, 07:27 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Text from a fellow coach in Oshawa, at the game today:

"It pains me to watch someone be as ineffective as Tyler Biggs is today. The highlight of his game was sitting down for two minutes, so we could put someone out who felt like playing. dirty hit from behind, playing like a bonehead. What's with this guy?"
Hmmm, so what type of conclusion do take from this?


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04-07-2013, 07:32 PM
  #143
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Hmmm, so what type of conclusion do take from this?

Well, it's one game. But my acquaintance has been to all of Oshawa's home playoff games, and has been pretty firm on his dislike for his play, for the most part. He has mentioned liking that the effort has been there on many nights, whether the points were or not (they haven't been), and he's loved his PK ability, but he stands out like a sore thumb for looking lost quite often.

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04-07-2013, 07:35 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Both Biggs and Lucic had big jumps in goals in their post draft years.

I don't have a problem with the Lucic comparison only when you realize Lucic was a 23 goal scorer in the Bruins cup winning year, not 30 unless you include 7 ENG that season.

7 is an extraordinary number of empty net goals, safe to say Lucic is more a 20-25 goal player than a 30 goal man.

It is not in the realm to say Biggs can score 20-25 goals in the NHL. I would say if he scored 15-20 and play good defence on a line say Lupul and Kadri giving his line mates space, this would point to him being a key player.

Again you can't have all skill on a team, you need these type of support players also.
Don't agree with the first bolded part, goals are goals no matter how you slice it. He got put in those situations and delivered.

However, agree with Biggs potentially being a key player down the line. His good frame along with his competitive element will benefit the cycle game. He might not be an offensive catalyst, but he will hold his own while plying with skilled players.

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04-07-2013, 07:37 PM
  #145
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Don't agree with the first bolded part, goals are goals no matter how you slice it. He got put in those situations and delivered.

However, agree with Biggs potentially being a key player down the line. His good frame along with his competitive element will benefit the cycle game. He might not be an offensive catalyst, but he will hold his own while plying with skilled players.
Goals are goals, even ENG, ask 99 about that, I think he is the all time leader in the NHL.

I just wanted to make sure everyone knew Lucic's 30 goal season was a one off to this point if you look at goals as ones with goaltenders in net.

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04-07-2013, 07:38 PM
  #146
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Worst case scenario is this, Biggs and Troechek was the key move by Housley when he made them an important shutdown line, with Grimaldi only joining them in the final game after Rocco's benching was the key coaching move by Team USA in the tourney. People will cite Galchenyuk's points totals as to he was a key, but in truth Troechek and Biggs moving up and Galenchyuk's line moving back after the loss to Canada was when TEAM USA went onto gold. They became a much better team when Biggs and Troechek got a more important role, if one didn't watch the tourney, and cited stats, they would have no clue what truly transpired when Team USA went undefeated from then on.

I see Biggs as a support top 6 player, with Kadri and Lupul perhaps. Hopefully as soon as one year in the AHL. If he develops I think he can have this type of impact in the NHL as he hads on Jenner's game. That's my projection, to replace Kule on that line one day, where Kule can drop back to a more comfortable checking role on the 3rd line, obcourse some will say what has Biggs done in the NHL as they did for Kadri, but that's the name of the game with development at the AHL and believing in your top prospects.

You want to upgrade the roster, you want guys pushing vets for jobs. Grabo was showing all the signs he was not going to be RC's boy last 10 games last season, if one truly believed in Kadri and knew his character and talent, it stood to reason this was his year, Morrison said as much at the beginning of the year, don't be surprised if Kadri has a breakthrough year. Only doubters doubt our prospects, as they do in this thread.
Morrison doesn't poop gold.

Not all of our prospects are going to pan out.

Are you telling people to have blind faith in our prospects simply because they're our prospects? That seems like a good recipe for disappointment.

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04-07-2013, 07:39 PM
  #147
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I think you mean post draft years.
Sure, just making sure the comparison made wasn't 1 year apart which it sounded like in the post I quoted.

And yes, there is a difference between NCAA and CHL.

There is also a difference in contributions.

Biggs drafted 2011: 2012-2013 scored 26 goals 53 points in CHL - 1 year after draft.
Lucic drafted 2006: 2006-2007 scored 30 goals 68 points in CHL - 0 years after draft.

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04-07-2013, 07:41 PM
  #148
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Morrison doesn't poop gold.

Not all of our prospects are going to pan out.

Are you telling people to have blind faith in our prospects simply because they're our prospects? That seems like a good recipe for disappointment.
Obcourse not all picks pan out, but I have faith in the first rd picks we have picked thus far. Ie. Biggs, Percy, Rielly, and some guy named Kadri. Despite what the imaginary texts say.

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04-07-2013, 07:42 PM
  #149
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Morrison doesn't poop gold.

Not all of our prospects are going to pan out.

Are you telling people to have blind faith in our prospects simply because they're our prospects? That seems like a good recipe for disappointment.
Hence why people who actually watch these kids play in person, have every right to doubt based on what they see, without the threat of being baselessly attacked by those who get their info from scoresheets, and scouting reports.

These kids aren't infallible, nor are they above criticism. Hey, if a kid doesn't play up to a level that's expected of him, who is anyone to attack someone who points that out?

To blindly expect kids are going to turn into key players for the big club is far worse than keeping your expectations in check, being realistic, and making reasonable opinions on a kid, based on what you see yourself.

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04-07-2013, 07:45 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Sure, just making sure the comparison made wasn't 1 year apart which it sounded like in the post I quoted.

And yes, there is a difference between NCAA and CHL.

There is also a difference in contributions.

Biggs drafted 2011: 2012-2013 scored 26 goals 53 points in CHL - 1 year after draft.
Lucic drafted 2006: 2006-2007 scored 30 goals 68 points in CHL - 0 years after draft.
Ya, I don't know why I bothered with that. It's not like it mattered, besides, I don't think Biggs contributions will be much for points. I think he has 40 pt top end potential. But that's not to say he won't be important for us.

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